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  1. #31
    Mighty Member Kaijudo's Avatar
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    This reminds me of some article I read years ago where Geoff Johns was talking about making Kite-Man some kind of psycho who was making kites out of human skin. Certainly makes me glad Johns never got a regular Batman gig...say what you will about Tom King's run, but his handling of Kite-Man, making him a bit more fleshed out while leaning into the goofiness of the character, was some genuinely good writing and a high point for the run (plus, revitalized the guy's presence, to where he's getting his own cartoon now).

    That's one of my issues with the recent Batman film...I always viewed Riddler as dangerous and capable of violence, but at his core he was a campy character obsessed with being smarter than Batman. By making him yet another serial killer in the movie, it robs him of what made him unique (beyond the basic element of leaving clues) and turns him into just another psychotic in Batman's rogues gallery. I sincerely hope that the Batman comics we see coming out in six or seven months don't suddenly lean into the Riddler of the film, either in demeanor or design.

  2. #32
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaijudo View Post
    This reminds me of some article I read years ago where Geoff Johns was talking about making Kite-Man some kind of psycho who was making kites out of human skin. Certainly makes me glad Johns never got a regular Batman gig...say what you will about Tom King's run, but his handling of Kite-Man, making him a bit more fleshed out while leaning into the goofiness of the character, was some genuinely good writing and a high point for the run (plus, revitalized the guy's presence, to where he's getting his own cartoon now).

    That's one of my issues with the recent Batman film...I always viewed Riddler as dangerous and capable of violence, but at his core he was a campy character obsessed with being smarter than Batman. By making him yet another serial killer in the movie, it robs him of what made him unique (beyond the basic element of leaving clues) and turns him into just another psychotic in Batman's rogues gallery. I sincerely hope that the Batman comics we see coming out in six or seven months don't suddenly lean into the Riddler of the film, either in demeanor or design.
    To me, the best Riddler story ever told was when Riddler decided to prove he was a better detective than Batman by solving cases for the GCPD. It really leaned into the whole "smarter than you" gimmick, but also had Riddler genuinely look smarter than almost everyone else.

  3. #33
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    Riddler was another character I had plans for in my fantasy run. In my mind, he wasn't a murderer and only committed petty crimes to prove his intellect. Given his form-fitting outfits, I saw him as a guy in great athletic condition and a sex symbol of the mensa set. In his old neighbourhood slum, he'd been a pool shark--since he could figure out all the angles--and a tipster for the Batman.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    To me, the best Riddler story ever told was when Riddler decided to prove he was a better detective than Batman by solving cases for the GCPD. It really leaned into the whole "smarter than you" gimmick, but also had Riddler genuinely look smarter than almost everyone else.
    Which story was that?

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    Which story was that?
    It was the OYL Riddler. I may have misremembered parts of it, but it was Riddler trying to be a good guy... but still Riddler.

  6. #36
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    I mean Sonar is the greatest villain of all time. I love that goofball and his over-the-top patriotism for his tiny tiny country and how even just it being mentioned in the news when he was captured brought a simile to his face. So, i think that answers the question.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS View Post
    I mean Sonar is the greatest villain of all time. I love that goofball and his over-the-top patriotism for his tiny tiny country and how even just it being mentioned in the news when he was captured brought a simile to his face. So, i think that answers the question.
    Which Sonar is that? There are like 10 characters who went by that name lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

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  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Thanks.

    (10char)
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaijudo View Post
    This reminds me of some article I read years ago where Geoff Johns was talking about making Kite-Man some kind of psycho who was making kites out of human skin. Certainly makes me glad Johns never got a regular Batman gig...say what you will about Tom King's run, but his handling of Kite-Man, making him a bit more fleshed out while leaning into the goofiness of the character, was some genuinely good writing and a high point for the run (plus, revitalized the guy's presence, to where he's getting his own cartoon now).

    That's one of my issues with the recent Batman film...I always viewed Riddler as dangerous and capable of violence, but at his core he was a campy character obsessed with being smarter than Batman. By making him yet another serial killer in the movie, it robs him of what made him unique (beyond the basic element of leaving clues) and turns him into just another psychotic in Batman's rogues gallery. I sincerely hope that the Batman comics we see coming out in six or seven months don't suddenly lean into the Riddler of the film, either in demeanor or design.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Riddler was another character I had plans for in my fantasy run. In my mind, he wasn't a murderer and only committed petty crimes to prove his intellect. Given his form-fitting outfits, I saw him as a guy in great athletic condition and a sex symbol of the mensa set. In his old neighbourhood slum, he'd been a pool shark--since he could figure out all the angles--and a tipster for the Batman.
    This take on Riddler as the campy harmless villains feels a bit ironic because he was easily the most unhinged, challenging and dangerous villain in the 60's Batman show. He even across as the leader of the rogues during times where they teamed up while the Joker was often the butt of the joke. This idea of Riddler being this harmless guy probably comes from the fact that the Joker took the top spot as the dangerous, unhinged lunatic who planned elaborate death traps. So Riddler just became this smart but harmless troublemaker who troubled Batman every once in a while. I've seen arguments that O'Neill's revival of the Joker in the 'Jokers 5 Way Revenge' involved making him more like the Riddler. I also recall an interview where Hamill cited Gorshin's Riddler as an influence on his performance and there are no shortage of people who claim that Carrey's Riddler was more like the Joker when in reality he was channeling Gorshin but dialed it up to 11 along with his trade mark Jim Carrey energy.

    I still wouldn't go the route that 'The Batman' did even if I found the movie to be overall enjoyable. But I think the Riddler is a tough villain to write for because the riddles genuinely have to be clever and you have to have stakes and tension. With the Joker you can just open the story with him threatening to blow up an orphanage and you immediately have your stakes set up. It sucks because Bill Finger envisioned Batman to be a detective and Riddler argurably should be his main nemesis. The Joker proved to be more entertaining villain for the masses.

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  11. #41
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    This take on Riddler as the campy harmless villains feels a bit ironic because he was easily the most unhinged, challenging and dangerous villain in the 60's Batman show. He even across as the leader of the rogues during times where they teamed up while the Joker was often the butt of the joke. This idea of Riddler being this harmless guy probably comes from the fact that the Joker took the top spot as the dangerous, unhinged lunatic who planned elaborate death traps. So Riddler just became this smart but harmless troublemaker who troubled Batman every once in a while. I've seen arguments that O'Neill's revival of the Joker in the 'Jokers 5 Way Revenge' involved making him more like the Riddler. I also recall an interview where Hamill cited Gorshin's Riddler as an influence on his performance and there are no shortage of people who claim that Carrey's Riddler was more like the Joker when in reality he was channeling Gorshin but dialed it up to 11 along with his trade mark Jim Carrey energy.

    I still wouldn't go the route that 'The Batman' did even if I found the movie to be overall enjoyable. But I think the Riddler is a tough villain to write for because the riddles genuinely have to be clever and you have to have stakes and tension. With the Joker you can just open the story with him threatening to blow up an orphanage and you immediately have your stakes set up. It sucks because Bill Finger envisioned Batman to be a detective and Riddler arguably should be his main nemesis. The Joker proved to be more entertaining villain for the masses.
    As a villain, you need the Riddler to be a threat, and this leads to the motive for solving the riddles is to figure out what he's doing.

    also, the joker is arguably an easier villain to write, since he doesn't canonically HAVE a consistent motive. Joker can get written 6 different ways and still come off as "right"

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