Continuity Cops! Has "Everything Happened" been a success or failure for you?

[Alpha]

Problem is that there are cases, where you have different versions that completely contradict each other and that simply can't be canon at the same time.

Check the definition presented above. There's no contradiction in this set up. It's much like reincarnation

[SanityOrMadness]

Stick to Post-COIE in the major details (Luthor being a corporate mogul for the most part, the Kents being alive), lean towards Pre-COIE in some of the smaller but important details (Clark... fought the Sand-Superman etc.)

They actually did the Sand-Superman story post-Crisis, albeit in abbreviated form as a "Special". Walt Simonson drew it.

[Jim Kelly]

They actually did the Sand-Superman story post-Crisis, albeit in abbreviated form as a "Special". Walt Simonson drew it.

SUPERMAN SPECIAL 1 (1992)--"The Sand-Man" by Walt Simonson (story and art):

From "The Super-Men and -Women of All-Planets," page 8, post #117--

Sand Superman, the Post-Reboot Man of Steel Redux



In SUPERMAN SPECIAL (1992), "The Sandman" rehashes the Sand Superman plot in a condensed version of the story from writer-artist Walt Simonson (there's a dedication at the end to Julie, Denny, Curt and Murphy). This time it's a secret facility owned by Lex Luthor that is experimenting on Kryptonite which causes the explosion that leads to the Sand Superman coming into being. But no explanation is delivered to where the Creature came from.

The experiment gone wrong converts the Kryptonite to lead rather than iron (which makes sense given radioactive decay); however, it's never explained if it was just the one sample or all the K on the Earth, like in the original story.

Luthor manipulates the Sandman into going after the Man of Steel. And the story comes to a big climax as the two Supermen square off at the Fortress of Solitude. The Sand Superman, now an identical twin of Superman, wants to become the Red and Blue Blur himself, having the same thoughts and desires as his doppelgänger. There's an explosion, but we never see the outcome. The story cuts to a Superman confronting Luthor in his office. Is this the true Superman or is this the Sand Superman?

The ending is ambiguous and we don't know for sure if the Sand Superman has now replaced the previous Superman or if Sandy gave up his life so Superman could continue with his own.

Sidebar: This story was originally supposed to come out earlier and it refers to events from around 1990. Like the old fan theory that Proty I took the place of the dead Lightning Lad (living out Garth's life from then on), there's a theory that the Sand Superman really did replace the John Byrne Superman and that's why Superman in the 1990s is different from the previous rebooted Man of Steel.

In this issue, Simonson also uses the Project and the New Newsboy Legion from Jack Kirby's run of SUPERMAN'S PAL, JIMMY OLSEN. So the new yarn about the Sand Superman dips its toe in reviving select elements of 1971 continuity, but it doesn't bring back a lot of what made that era so good for this reader.

The thing is, these kinds of rehashes try to pay tribute to the original comics, but they effectively erase them from continuity. There was a brief period there, after Crisis, where you could imagine that Clark's time at Galaxy Broadcasting could have happened, but squeezed into a confined space of time (well he was 29 years old from 1971 to 1985, so why not). A reader could happily just imagine that all those great stories were in continuity. But when Uncle Walt writes his new "Sand-Man" story, he's unintentionally over-writing everything that Great Uncles Julie, Denny, Curt and Murph did back in the day.

[Restingvoice]

I wonder what the consensus timelines would look like for DC's major characters, and what fans would choose that they remember. It seems too overwhelming to think that Wonder Woman remembers being every version of her past self, for example. Morrison's Batman approach could work if they committed to it.\

"Everything happened" has clearly been abandoned, otherwise Cassie Sandsmark would have known Artremis in Jones' Wonder Girl series, since the latter was her mentor for a decade of stories.

Not everyone remember what happened in their past lives and for those who do, they memory only show up in flashes. It's not something that's permanently on their brain. I think. Their main memory is still the current continuity, whatever it is.

The only time they all remember their past lives, all of it, was during the final battle in Death Metal.

I guess I'm okay with characters remembering their past lives, but I'm not sure how that affects their relationships. It doesn't feel like the key relationships have been truly reestablished.

The effect is we're dumped in the middle of a pretty much a new continuity, and treated as if things has always been this way, for example, Jon knowing and admiring Nightwing

What is the difference between the Doomsday Clock explanation, the Multiverse explanation, the Omniverse explanation, and the Hypertime?

Hypertime is the totality of alternate timelines. Every time something contradictory happened, that version branches out into an different timeline, but if those two versions one day continue in a story with no inconsistency, those different branches become one timeline again.

It's basically a device to explain the inconsistent minute details between authors or series.

Example during the Batman Fear State crossover
in Batman Nightwing arrived in Gotham before the event began because he sensed that things will go down
in Detective Comics Nightwing is already in Gotham because he's helping Batman with the story case
in Nightwing itself he only went to Gotham because Oracle sent a distress signal
Then they all combine in the Fear State crossover, with "Nightwing already in Gotham, then alongside Tim and Batgirls doing this and that"

Has this been set in stone anywhere? It's been a while since I read Infinite Frontier, but I remember it being a little unclear how it all worked.

Only Barry-Wally in Death Metal conclusion mention it clearly, Cameron Chase in Infinite Frontier mentioned that not everyone remembers (yet), and Deathstroke Inc showed Slade's past lives memory in blue instead of full color.

Oh and Talia's motivation in joining the hero-villain coalition is because she believes her timeline has been altered, that Damian as her son shouldn't act against her during the Morrison era.

[bat39]

SUPERMAN SPECIAL 1 (1992)--"The Sand-Man" by Walt Simonson (story and art):

From "The Super-Men and -Women of All-Planets," page 8, post #117--




The thing is, these kinds of rehashes try to pay tribute to the original comics, but they effectively erase them from continuity. There was a brief period there, after Crisis, where you could imagine that Clark's time at Galaxy Broadcasting could have happened, but squeezed into a confined space of time (well he was 29 years old from 1971 to 1985, so why not). A reader could happily just imagine that all those great stories were in continuity. But when Uncle Walt writes his new "Sand-Man" story, he's unintentionally over-writing everything that Great Uncles Julie, Denny, Curt and Murph did back in the day.

Fascinating! Had no idea of the existence of this.

You're right about the overwriting of course. Though I suppose this wouldn't be a problem in a Marvel-style continuity where both versions can co-exist in a sense, and writers can reference either version. For instance, notionally, Iron Man's original appearance where he built his armor in Vietnam is still canon, alongside the later Afghanistan version of the origin (and the latest Sian Cong version that is closer to the Vietnam original). In a way that's what Morrison did for Batman - you could imagine Batman's early years as the original Kane/Finger stories and you could imagine it as Year One.

Overall, I feel the Bronze Age is a pretty neglected era in contemporary comics, compared to the Golden Age or Silver Age. There's a lot of nostalgia to be mined from taking Superman back to 1938 or WW2 or the 60's...but not so much for taking him back to the 70's (which was why I was surprised by the existence of this retelling). Clark being a TV reporter has never really been revisited, nor have other aspects of this era of the comics, such as an adult Supergirl.

[marhawkman]

But we all agree he's just butt-ugly, I mean "hideously malformed" (as per the Lisa Kent entry), after years of Kryptonite exposure, right?

Right, but while that's true of Earth-91 Superman... is it true of any other version? It's also part of why that story is sooo..... different. Superman retired from being a hero due to his injuries. And no, Lisa didn't take over his position in the JL.... Kara did. Who for some weird reason is still called Supergirl.... despite being in her 30s or 40s.... Presumably. We don't know how old Lisa was when Kara arrived on Earth, but Lisa uses the name "Superlass" because Supergirl was taken already.

[Zero Hunter]

No it has not worked for me. It is kinda pathetic with just how easy it is these days to keep track of things that DC choose now to abandon things.

[marhawkman]

Check the definition presented above. There's no contradiction in this set up. It's much like reincarnation

But..... that basically writes off EVERYTHING as no longer being in continuity, rather than merging timelines. Also does modern Superman remember the life of Earth-91 Superman?

[InfamousBG]

Someone said it perfectly...bring in a guy like Hickman to fix DC's issues.

As long as we get the JSA or a new version of the JSA I will be happy.

[Digifiend]

Overall, I feel the Bronze Age is a pretty neglected era in contemporary comics, compared to the Golden Age or Silver Age. There's a lot of nostalgia to be mined from taking Superman back to 1938 or WW2 or the 60's...but not so much for taking him back to the 70's (which was why I was surprised by the existence of this retelling). Clark being a TV reporter has never really been revisited, nor have other aspects of this era of the comics, such as an adult Supergirl.

Right, but while that's true of Earth-91 Superman... is it true of any other version? It's also part of why that story is sooo..... different. Superman retired from being a hero due to his injuries. And no, Lisa didn't take over his position in the JL.... Kara did. Who for some weird reason is still called Supergirl.... despite being in her 30s or 40s.... Presumably. We don't know how old Lisa was when Kara arrived on Earth, but Lisa uses the name "Superlass" because Supergirl was taken already.

Arrowverse Supergirl was an adult. And she was over 30 by the time the show ended.

[Triniking1234]

Why? Series taking place in the past isn't new concept and they were always around.

To be fair, there are some aspects of Waid's Batman/Superman that couldn't happen unless they consolidated everything.

- Active Doom Patrol
- Robin and Kara dated
- Kara even being on Earth when the JL, DP, Bats and Supes were active

[Frontier]

I'm asking for Post-Crisis Aquaman back. I want a time-displaced, Peter David-era hook-handed Orin to show up, see the New 52/Johns-era Aquaman, decide this loser is a blonde Superman wannabe with a stick up his blowhole, and literally stab him in the head with his cybernetic harpoon hand sticking out the other side. Then I want Orin to cybernetically rotate his hook, still stuck in Aquadouche's skull, at high speed, thus turning his brain into a Slurpie as a slightly obscure but just as ham-fisted "Right back atcha, jerk" to Alex Ross.

Fatality!

Although then Mera would probably come in and wreck him a new one...

[Alpha]

But..... that basically writes off EVERYTHING as no longer being in continuity, rather than merging timelines. Also does modern Superman remember the life of Earth-91 Superman?

I'm pretty sure people only remember previous mainstream continuities. Golden age, Silver Age, Post Crisis, Infinite Crisis, New 52, Rebirth

[Lee]

Only Barry-Wally in Death Metal conclusion mention it clearly, Cameron Chase in Infinite Frontier mentioned that not everyone remembers (yet), and Deathstroke Inc showed Slade's past lives memory in blue instead of full color.

Oh and Talia's motivation in joining the hero-villain coalition is because she believes her timeline has been altered, that Damian as her son shouldn't act against her during the Morrison era.

I remember the Talia thing coming up in Infinite Frontier, but it was just a suspicion, wasn't it? As in, she suspects there was a previous reality where Damian was her ally, but doesn't have any actual memory of it. If the rule is that all characters remember all of their past lives, and if Talia is aware of that rule, then she'd realise that no memories of it = it never happened.

If she's one of the characters who doesn't remember yet, is she expecting those memories to come back within a few weeks, a few months? Years? Never?

It leaves things in a fuzzy position where some characters remember things and others don't and some of those memories are still part of the current timeline and others are just past timelines and it isn't always clear which is which.

[Restingvoice]

But..... that basically writes off EVERYTHING as no longer being in continuity, rather than merging timelines. Also does modern Superman remember the life of Earth-91 Superman?

The purpose isn't to make everything canon in one continuity, it's so that Everything Matters. Occasionally remembering past events mean that writers can pull from previous continuities, incorporate it in the character, and it's still be that character.

It's so that those past lives matter in the current continuity without being constraint by continuity itself... if they want to

Honestly I don't know who first coined Everything Canon, because that's the one that makes people confuse, thinking it all happened in one continuity. It doesn't. It refers to past publications, past continuities. All continuities. But the reboots still happen.

Snyder only said Everything Matters, as in past stories matters. Through the memories. (As far as I remember.)

Current Earth-1 Superman only remember past main Earths. So current Earth-91 Superman remember previous Earth-91 Superman. IF this rule applies to other Earths.

I remember the Talia thing coming up in Infinite Frontier, but it was just a suspicion, wasn't it? As in, she suspects there was a previous reality where Damian was her ally, but doesn't have any actual memory of it. If the rule is that all characters remember all of their past lives, and if Talia is aware of that rule, then she'd realise that no memories of it = it never happened.

If she's one of the characters who doesn't remember yet, is she expecting those memories to come back within a few weeks, a few months? Years? Never?

It leaves things in a fuzzy position where some characters remember things and others don't and some of those memories are still part of the current timeline and others are just past timelines and it isn't always clear which is which.

Yes. I think Talia doesn't remember her past, but because some do and they all know about the reincarnation now, she suspected one of those reincarnation changed her and Damian's fate.

If they want to make things clear, they would've announced something similar to Didio's 5G timeline for the current continuity, but they're avoiding it and only tell through flashbacks and mentions.

It's deliberately vague because they don't want to be bogged down by continuity. Jim Lee said when Infinite Frontier era started that they will focus more on character than continuity.

All of these methods that are now canon at the same time, Omniverse, Metaverse, Memories, Hypertime, Speed Force, are all tools to explain that in-universe (and also story material if someone want to do a deep dive), should an explanation is needed for the readers who want it.