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  1. #76
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Why? Series taking place in the past isn't new concept and they were always around.
    I don't mean that a flashback story wouldn't happen, I meant this particular story wouldn't have happened. Far as I can tell, Waid isn't paying much attention to what continuity is supposed to be and is just having fun with the retro Silver Age-y vibe, and the book is much better for it. For example, as far as I can tell, looking at what continuity is supposed to be today, Kara wouldn't have been around when Dick was Robin. But she's there in Waid's story, and it's great.

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    The problem there is that's a MASSIVE amount of continuity re-writing, and... I don't think anyone will ever do that.
    I agree that locking every single story into a single timeline is impossible, and not worth the effort anyway. How often do stories like Millennium Giants get referenced or matter to the stuff happening today? Not worth trying to fit it all into a timeline. I figure 90% of stories end up as fluff and dross; they might be fun to read, but there's little point in trying to cement them into position within a history because they don't carry enough weight to matter.

    But DC could take the major stories and developments and work it all into a single framework. And really I wouldn't want anything more involved and complex than that basic foundation. Give us enough to know the general shape of the history without getting bogged down in the details.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #77
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    So pre crisis, post crisis, new 52 and rebirth are now all the same universe?

  3. #78
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    So pre crisis, post crisis, new 52 and rebirth are now all the same universe?
    Think of it like reincarnation for the entire universe.

    The world started over many times, with each time erasing everyone's memories of the past. And now we are in the universe of Rebirth but everyone can remember all their past lives. (Not everyone does, and a random civilian won't remember Green Lantern's history obviously.)

  4. #79
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    I think it works on a micro scale but the universe feels smaller now. I care a lot less about the interconnected quality of the universe because it's so paper thin. Full disclosure, but the long histories and interconnected quality of the universe was always a draw to me and part of what made me want to read/collect regularly.

    "Everything happened" ultimately has boiled down to "whatever I feel like addressing happened," which is kind of what went on before, but it can mean that Ollie is both a cheater and not a cheater, for example. Because of all the reboots, there are too many disparate parts for the "everything happened" approach to really work. It's just a handwave to lighten the load on editors and reduce the barrier to entry.

    Essentially, they made the pool more welcoming by bottoming it out. It's more shallow as a result. There's no clear delineation for what did or didn't happen besides certain markers that make things so incongruous that it's simply impossible they are. While none of this is real, the illusion is a selling point and making the sleight of hand easier to see isn't going to impress readers.

    I like a lot of the books that have come out, but they wisely are not bringing up that technically they've all had crazy adventures on Earth-2 with the JSA that they don't talk about or remember. Bruce doesn't bring up that time he gunned down a mobster in the 30s (or under Deacon Blackfire's thrall). The actual history of these characters is just whatever the writer wants to pull from and as a result they feel a bit more stock, like there's just a default Superman that is the starting point of any story and you can reference anything that came before.

    Very liberating as a creative, but it makes him as a character feel lesser because, well, he doesn't have the wealth of stories that have happened to him. Just the ones we're touching on right now. It's a mixed bag, to be sure, and it hurts some far more than others. What even is Steve Trevor's situation, how has he died and been revived so much and why does nobody talk about it?

    Under someone like Waid, who is a walking encyclopedia, this works wonders. Under most new writers and editors? It's pretty much stock versions of your favorite characters with voices that don't match their publishing histories. The entire directive seems like a way to lighten the blow of the firings since everyone's overworked on editorial's side, and I say that as someone who is enjoying this era overall of DC... But at no point do I feel like I'm reading the DC Universe. I'm reading a lot of the characters, but there's nothing holding them together.

    ITT: We're all Hawk Troys now.
    Last edited by Robanker; 05-22-2022 at 10:54 AM.
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  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    So pre crisis, post crisis, new 52 and rebirth are now all the same universe?
    How it works is (and bear in mind I had to have this explained to me as well): Superman has memories of his Pre Crisis self, Post Crisis self, his Nu52 self which he experiences in flashes. He still has his own personal history as well but buried in his head are also the memories of his previous 'lives'. Now stretch that to all the heroes on the primary Earth and you get the picture.

    This means that if tomorrow DC released a comic book in which Batman and Catwoman are about to engage in their regular rooftop coitus and he suddenly has a flashback to when he told her 'Quiet or Papa spank' then it won't be a contradiction of continuity, he is simply recalling something that a previous version of him said.

    Like I said earlier, everybody is Hawkman and Donna Troy. But somehow neither or them are anymore relevant now than they were a couple of years ago.

    If I got anything wrong feel free to correct me. I used to be able to keep most of DC continuity straight in my head but the last couple of years have been really crazy.

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  6. #81
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    How it works is (and bear in mind I had to have this explained to me as well): Superman has memories of his Pre Crisis self, Post Crisis self, his Nu52 self which he experiences in flashes. He still has his own personal history as well but buried in his head are also the memories of his previous 'lives'. Now stretch that to all the heroes on the primary Earth and you get the picture.

    This means that if tomorrow DC released a comic book in which Batman and Catwoman are about to engage in their regular rooftop coitus and he suddenly has a flashback to when he told her 'Quiet or Papa spank' then it won't be a contradiction of continuity, he is simply recalling something that a previous version of him said.

    Like I said earlier, everybody is Hawkman and Donna Troy. But somehow neither or them are anymore relevant now than they were a couple of years ago.

    If I got anything wrong feel free to correct me. I used to be able to keep most of DC continuity straight in my head but the last couple of years have been really crazy.
    That's how I read it as well, but I don't see how it helps all that much since it's just a hall pass to not do the research or work to find an organic way to bring stories back in.
    May we never forget:

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  7. #82
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I think it works on a micro scale but the universe feels smaller now. I care a lot less about the interconnected quality of the universe because it's so paper thin.

    ITT: We're all Hawk Troys now.
    Really liked this post, man. Really well said, and I agree with you on all points.

    Now me, I'm willing to accept a more shallow, stock DCU if it gives me stories I enjoy. I was inches from dropping the hobby entirely before Future State hit, but DC managed not to lose me, largely due to Action and Nightwing (and Naomi, which was on the way).

    I do miss the tight, deep continuity (insofar as DC ever *really* had that). But that's been gone since the 52, and I'd argue it started to fall apart in the 00's. Better "everything counts" than the endless cycle of reboots and retcons we've endured.

    But every damn word in your post? Yeah I feel it. Fortunately for DC, I guess my standards have dropped a lot.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I don't see why it would be overwhelming for her. She remembers being born in the Golden Age and then time being rewritten many times, by gods, alien entities and cosmic unities. She remembers going through those various adventures, dying, coming back, Steve being older, younger, etc.

    They are just memories from all the adventures she's had and how her relationships oscilated and how she herself changed. Except she knows her memory was reset multiple times and now all of it is back.


    And Wonder Woman is the perfect example of how you can't actually pick one single continuity for her because every past history of the character had huge blunders fans dislike, specially post crisis, and even Rebirth (like her only seeing Themyscira again 10 years after leaving, Jason being her brother, etc).

    So her remembering every past is the only pragmatic option.

    Everything Happened is what ends the endless cycle of major and minor reboots that were never going to create consistency, just grievances
    I guess I'm okay with characters remembering their past lives, but I'm not sure how that affects their relationships. It doesn't feel like the key relationships have been truly reestablished.

    I'm obviously not reading every book, but clearly a lot of questions linger.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Stanlos's Avatar
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    What is the difference between the Doomsday Clock explanation, the Multiverse explanation, the Omniverse explanation, and the Hypertime?
    Last edited by Stanlos; 05-22-2022 at 09:09 PM.

  10. #85
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    What is the difference between the Doomsday Clock explanation, the Multiverse explanation, the and the Hypertime?
    Doomsday Clock means that every previous continuity is still out there somewhere in the multiverse.

    Hypertime is something I personally can't explain but has to do with parallel timelines sometimes crossing our world and that explains random continuity errors supposedly.



    Death Metal's "Everything Happened" means that the universe was restarted many times (Silver Age, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Infinite Crisis, Flashpoint, etc)

    This works similarly to reincarnation, with everyone forgetting the previous timeline before the reboot. But with Death Metal people can now remember all their past lives, from beginning to end. Wonder Woman knows that in this universe she didn't fight Blue Snowman in the 40s, but she can remember the previous life where she did that. This means that we can freely take advantage of previous stories instead of repeating the cycle of trying to create a single perfect history, because we know that no single history will satisfy more than 50% of fans.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Death Metal's "Everything Happened" means that the universe was restarted many times (Silver Age, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Infinite Crisis, Flashpoint, etc)

    This works similarly to reincarnation, with everyone forgetting the previous timeline before the reboot. But with Death Metal people can now remember all their past lives, from beginning to end. Wonder Woman knows that in this universe she didn't fight Blue Snowman in the 40s, but she can remember the previous life where she did that. This means that we can freely take advantage of previous stories instead of repeating the cycle of trying to create a single perfect history, because we know that no single history will satisfy more than 50% of fans.
    Has this been set in stone anywhere? It's been a while since I read Infinite Frontier, but I remember it being a little unclear how it all worked.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Stanlos's Avatar
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    Off the cuff, that sounds horrible. But I am glad to finally understand the context of the conversation Lois had with the Checkmate lady in the later issues of the Lois Lane mini. At the time I read it I put a pin in this and instead focused on what was happening with the Kents and why the son was like a grown up all of the sudden.

    Therapists must be a booming field in the DCU

  13. #88
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Has this been set in stone anywhere? It's been a while since I read Infinite Frontier, but I remember it being a little unclear how it all worked.
    I think it is being kept vague on purpose. The moment writers will actually try to explain it fully and actually do something with it is the moment the entire thing collapses.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    There are way too contradictory elements to just say 'everything happened'. Morrison spent ~10 years~ trying to consolidate all the wacky Silver Age stuff with the modern version of Batman.
    I still don't think that this still just muddied the continuity and didn't really added anything of worth to the Batman mythos.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    It depends on if you actually care about continuity, because this whole ''everything happened'' things was just one big way for DC to say: ''We don't care about continuity, we don't care about what happened and what didn't, it's already broken, we're tired of trying to fix it and you won't let us make complete reboot anyway, so that's how things will be going from now on"
    I don't care about it, so, I'm okay with that. But I can see why someone is upset with this.
    Problem is that there are cases, where you have different versions that completely contradict each other and that simply can't be canon at the same time.

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