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  1. #31
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    One shouldn't need LSD or a board with strings reminiscent of a a stereotypical conspiracy theorist in order understand simple continuity.
    No, but both can be a lot of fun!
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  2. #32
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    I think it's incredibly stupid from a narrative standpoint, especially considering how simple yet effective Johns' Metaverse is from Doomsday Clock. The ONLY reason the Metaverse explanation for the Multiverse (and the undoing of Manhattan's changes to the core DCU) were undone was because DiDio was put back in charge by Bob Harras. Personal vendetta and spite overruled what could have easily been the final word on continuity: every time there's a change to Superman, a new universe is created in the Multiverse that preserves the previous era. In essence, everything DID happen and those versions of characters and stories are forever preserved and available to be revisited.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    There are way too contradictory elements to just say 'everything happened'. Morrison spent ~10 years~ trying to consolidate all the wacky Silver Age stuff with the modern version of Batman. It will take about the same time but probably even longer to do that for the entire DCU.

    I don't care about the shared universe. Just give me good stories, the ocassional team up or cross over, connect the dots where they make sense and we're good.
    The advantage with Batman, at least back in the late 2000's, was that there really wasn't that much contradiction, continuity-wise, between the various eras. Morrison's work was more about reconciling the conflicting tonalities of the Silver Age Batman with the modern stuff than it was about continuity issues per se. Most of the major Post-COIE Batman retcons (Alfred as Bruce's surrogate father being the biggest one) are now settled parts of the mythos and the other stuff is minor or cosmetic enough to be easily overlooked.

    Contrast this with something like Superman continuity where you have far more fundamental contradictions, like whether the Kents are alive or dead, whether Clark and Lois are married or not, and possibly in the near-future (if there's another reboot that tries to walk back on Jon), whether they have a kid or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I would be fine if continuity was treated like it is for Wally West in the current Flash run. "So I was just going about my life one day when this Nu52 **** happened and my life and everything related to it was erased but now my history, continuity and relationships is back to being what it used to be".

    The Post Crisis era (for all it's faults) is the most stable foundation DC has ever had. The Pre Crisis stuff can always be woven into their narrative.

    Batman Year One is still considered the classic Batman origin story.

    The current WW run is still drawing from Perez and Jimenez's runs for story ideas while mixing it with some Pre Crisis elements.

    Bryne's Man of Steel is still main bible that Superman adaptations, be it animation or live action, still draws inspiration from.

    Rebirth Superman was just Post Crisis Superman and Lois with a kid.

    So I hope DC just restores everyone's pre Crisis continuity, incorporate workable elements from Pre Crisis continuity and just consider Nu52 as a bad dream everyone had.

    Though I suspect there are shenanigans from higher ups who still want to retain elements from Nu52 continuity. Hence why the Wonder books haven't completely disregarded the terrible Zeus origin.
    I tend to agree. And it seemed like Rebirth was building on the Post-COIE base.

    Anyway, 80's/90's nostalgia is in these days, so really, it should be Post-COIE for the win! Kinda like how 15-20 years ago it was Silver Age nostalgia that ruled the roost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Brent View Post
    I think it's incredibly stupid from a narrative standpoint, especially considering how simple yet effective Johns' Metaverse is from Doomsday Clock. The ONLY reason the Metaverse explanation for the Multiverse (and the undoing of Manhattan's changes to the core DCU) were undone was because DiDio was put back in charge by Bob Harras. Personal vendetta and spite overruled what could have easily been the final word on continuity: every time there's a change to Superman, a new universe is created in the Multiverse that preserves the previous era. In essence, everything DID happen and those versions of characters and stories are forever preserved and available to be revisited.
    I agree. The Metaverse explanation is also the one that most closely mirrored how continuity changes actually work in the DCU - the characters and the universe literally get rebooted and changed into a new form, but the previous versions are also still out there somewhere on another earth/timeline/reality. This explains everything from the classic Earth 2 to Convergence to Hypertime and more.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJNeal View Post
    *My* DC Universe existed from 1986-2011, and while it certainly had its flaws, the people that built it cared about continuity on a level we probably won't ever see again.

    I don't mean this as cynically as it sounds, but I really don't care anymore. The current mandate works for me in that I still read the characters/creators I like, and stopped worrying about how/if/when their stories all tie together awhile ago now.
    Yeah, only people who care could create disasters like Hawkman.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post

    I don't see anybody asking for Jason Todd to be ressurected by Superboy Primes reality punch.
    The punch is questionable, but its already been stated Jason resurrected in his coffin, and not brought back by the Lazarus Pit.

    And that's not even getting into his origin. Pre-Crisis Jason was a copy of Dick Grayson in almost every way, except for the hair color. Post-Crisis Jason was far more interesting background, but still a good kid and Robin. Until DC retro-actively made him the "bad Robin". Which in itself was a re-write, except without the excuse of the rest of reality be rewritten as well.

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    My only consistency problem so far are:
    1. I don't know if Wonder Woman came to Man's Land in 1938 or not, and if she did, it would've been without Steve since he and Etta are still young today
    2. Billy Batson looks about 7-10 years old in World's Finest while 17 in present day
    3. Kara's World's Finest age also doesn't seem to line up with Woman of Tomorrow
    3. The worst though is Jon Kent was born 12 years ago after Death of Superman after Tim was already Robin at age 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Which stories was Jon Kent around for? When was he actually born? Does it synch up with the ages of other young characters, like Tim Drake?
    It doesn't ^

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    So far it has been working, but as you say eventually there are going to have to be some stuff that contradicts other stuff.
    Already happened since the beginning but it didn't get actually confirmed until I see they're using Death of Superman with Tim in it

    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    Bendis says than the Legion never existed before. So, not "everything happened".
    I mean, how can you doubt what Bendis says?
    Was this before or after Death Metal and Infinite Frontier?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Post-Crisis Jason was far more interesting background, but still a good kid and Robin. Until DC retro-actively made him the "bad Robin". Which in itself was a re-write, except without the excuse of the rest of reality be rewritten as well.
    I think... if one want to canonize it... Zero Hour did that
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 05-20-2022 at 12:18 PM.

  7. #37
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Brent View Post
    I think it's incredibly stupid from a narrative standpoint, especially considering how simple yet effective Johns' Metaverse is from Doomsday Clock. The ONLY reason the Metaverse explanation for the Multiverse (and the undoing of Manhattan's changes to the core DCU) were undone was because DiDio was put back in charge by Bob Harras. Personal vendetta and spite overruled what could have easily been the final word on continuity: every time there's a change to Superman, a new universe is created in the Multiverse that preserves the previous era. In essence, everything DID happen and those versions of characters and stories are forever preserved and available to be revisited.
    The point of everything happened isn't because we can go back and visit older timelines, that can be done in any story out of continuity. The point is that there isn't a single continuity that satisfies the fandom. So we need to sat tgat the heroes remember every previous canon life they lived, even though they live in todays world.

    Superman himself had at least 3 different origins in Post Crisis.

    And most Wonder Woman fans don't actually wanna go back to Post Crisis despite their claims, because they don't want Steve Trevor to be old and married to Etta Candy, nor do they want the old origin story for Cheetah, nor do they want Amazons Attack to be canon.

    No Aquaman fan is asking for Post Crisis back.

  8. #38
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    My only consistency problem so far are:
    1. I don't know if Wonder Woman came to Man's Land in 1938 or not, and if she did, it would've been without Steve since he and Etta are still young today
    She remembers every version of her past life. Steve and Etta exist here just like in Rebirth

    2. Billy Batson looks about 7-10 years old in World's Finest while 17 in present day
    That book is set in the past. Isn't Dick Grayson still the Robin?
    3. Kara's World's Finest age also doesn't seem to line up with Woman of Tomorrow
    it's never very clear if Tom King's minseries are canon. Strange Adventures and Human Target probably won't be considered canon (Batman Catwoman definitely doesn't seem to be). Maybe Supergirl is gonna be canon, but ages fluctuate all the time anyway. Look at Young Justice and Batgirls.
    3. The worst though is Jon Kent was born 12 years ago after Death of Superman after Tim was already Robin at age 14
    Jon was born in another continuity and his life merged with this universe. He remembers a certain account of the world and maybe Tim also remembers that cointinuity along with Precrisis and Flashpoint.

    The confusion on who's the first Justice League roster in the Hall of Justice museum can be explained by everyone having jumbled memories of past incarnations, including civilians, so the museum includes everything, but the civilians don't know what actually happened.
    That's exactly what "Everything happened" means! Yes

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    She remembers every version of her past life. Steve and Etta exist here just like in Rebirth


    That book is set in the past. Isn't Dick Grayson still the Robin?
    it's never very clear if Tom King's minseries are canon. Strange Adventures and Human Target probably won't be considered canon (Batman Catwoman definitely doesn't seem to be). Maybe Supergirl is gonna be canon, but ages fluctuate all the time anyway. Look at Young Justice and Batgirls.

    Jon was born in another continuity and his life merged with this universe. He remembers a certain account of the world and maybe Tim also remembers that cointinuity along with Precrisis and Flashpoint.


    That's exactly what "Everything happened" means! Yes
    No, he's born in Earth-0 now. If he's actually born in Convergence I wouldn't have any problem with it. The memory part isn't the problem. The physical part is.

    or are you saying Jon was born in Earth-0 now but he remembered it happening 12 years ago when it was actually only 3-6 or so years ago?

    About Wonder Woman, at the end of Doomsday Clock it's established that Wonder Woman actually physically debut before Alan Scott, that's not a memory, since Alan is old now, and he has his WW2 backstory. The question is, was Wonder Woman still there too, or has it been changed.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 05-20-2022 at 12:37 PM.

  10. #40
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felipe Silveira View Post
    Yes, it's working. And I like the weird things that need to be fixed. Like, for example, Emiko and Robert.
    What's the problem with that? Is there something in the old continuity involving Robert Queen which should prevent Emiko's existence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    That book is set in the past. Isn't Dick Grayson still the Robin?
    it's never very clear if Tom King's minseries are canon. Strange Adventures and Human Target probably won't be considered canon (Batman Catwoman definitely doesn't seem to be). Maybe Supergirl is gonna be canon, but ages fluctuate all the time anyway. Look at Young Justice and Batgirls.
    If you ignore Woman of Tomorrow then the age difference is even worse. She was 16 in Rebirth, and WOT aged her up to 21.

    Yes, Dick is Robin in World's Finest. But in post-Crisis continuity, Kara didn't show up until Tim was Robin, so that's a mismatch. So, Kara's presence in WF means she's too young even in WOT. Even if you say she died in Crisis and was resurrected (instead of being rebooted as happened in 2005 AND in 2011) and say she didn't age while deceased, she should still be much closer to Dick's age. Mid to late 20s.

    Tim Drake is himself another example of ages not matching. If he was 17 when 10 year old Damian showed up, why is he no older than 18 now when Damian is 14? Tim should be in his 20s by now.
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  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    What's the problem with that? Is there something in the old continuity involving Robert Queen which should prevent Emiko's existence?

    If you ignore Woman of Tomorrow then the age difference is even worse. She was 16 in Rebirth, and WOT aged her up to 21.

    Yes, Dick is Robin in World's Finest. But in post-Crisis continuity, Kara didn't show up until Tim was Robin, so that's a mismatch. So, Kara's presence in WF means she's too young even in WOT. Even if you say she died in Crisis and was resurrected (instead of being rebooted as happened in 2005 AND in 2011) and say she didn't age while deceased, she should still be much closer to Dick's age. Mid to late 20s.

    Tim Drake is himself another example of ages not matching. If he was 17 when 10 year old Damian showed up, why is he no older than 18 now when Damian is 14? Tim should be in his 20s by now.
    By the way did they ever clarify Tim's age or people just assumes he's not yet 20. I asked this before but I always forget

  12. #42
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Yeah, only people who care could create disasters like Hawkman.
    Yes, I'm well aware of that particular disaster. The Hawks and Donna Troy remain the glaring post-COIE continuity mistakes, but they've both been addressed ad nauseum. And the fact that they jumped through so many hoops to try and make it work *does* show they cared; much more so than shrugging their collective shoulders and saying "it all happened!".

    I'd still take that DCU over the current one, in the context of the OP's topic.
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  13. #43
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    The only canon that is real is the Hostess snack cake universe.
    Well, that goes without saying...

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    I wonder what the consensus timelines would look like for DC's major characters, and what fans would choose that they remember. It seems too overwhelming to think that Wonder Woman remembers being every version of her past self, for example. Morrison's Batman approach could work if they committed to it.

    The multiversal explanation in Doomsday Clock also works, which was kind of similar to Hypertime.

    There's surely a way to streamline it all.

  15. #45
    Mighty Member Felipe Silveira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    What's the problem with that? Is there something in the old continuity involving Robert Queen which should prevent Emiko's existence?
    Robert Tomonago, son of Oliver and Shado. Emiko is the daughter of Robert Queen and Shado, so she would be Robert Tomonago's aunt and sister.

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