Continuity Cops! Has "Everything Happened" been a success or failure for you?

[Stanlos]

so much this. merging histories just.. why....

It was very jarring to encounter. It took me right out of the Superman and Lois Lane stories I was reading

[JThree]

A part of me wanted the current Superman to remember his past histories. When Byrne's Superman was still fresh, there was a part of me that hoped he would find this Crisis "safe room," and all of a sudden he would remember Kara's death in the Crisis. Something like that. The original Crisis was good, but afterwords I hated what it did to DC history.

Hated what Hawkworld did to Kater and Shayera. Hated so many different versions of Supergirl.

--jthree

[phonogram12]

A part of me wanted the current Superman to remember his past histories. When Byrne's Superman was still fresh, there was a part of me that hoped he would find this Crisis "safe room," and all of a sudden he would remember Kara's death in the Crisis. Something like that. The original Crisis was good, but afterwords I hated what it did to DC history.

Hated what Hawkworld did to Kater and Shayera. Hated so many different versions of Supergirl.

--jthree

Agreed.

With the exception of the Bat books, I really just detested the way the rest of the DCU turned out after CRISIS. In fact, the results of CRISIS are the exact reason I'm extremely wary of the notion of any sort of strict continuity.

[wonder39]

If they do alternate earths, infinite earths, it will be a different story, instead of same story but in the past

They can't do, say, Mark Waid Dan Mora World's Finest and call it canon. It has to be Pre-Crisis Earth-1, not main Earth history.

The root of the problem here is people feeling their story they invested in don't count, get angry, and refuse to read. Basically, what happened in New 52. DC lost a lot of money and reader by erasing history. In Rebirth, they bring it back, some elements of it. Now they're bringing it ALL back.

How does it fit matters less than trying to telling everyone that their old stories count.

But that's just it. Those old stories do count, just on their own Ear with this, as everything had been done and redone and cancelled and brought back that it's just been too confusing.

Personally, I think if DC had made the 52 it's own Earth originally instead of rewriting existence, it would have been easier to swallow and easier to correct. Telling people their stories don't exist vs "we're telling storing on this Earth now" is easier to take, knowing " my Earth" is still out there. And once the experiment fails, you shift back to the Earth that worked.

[bat39]

But that's just it. Those old stories do count, just on their own Ear with this, as everything had been done and redone and cancelled and brought back that it's just been too confusing.

Personally, I think if DC had made the 52 it's own Earth originally instead of rewriting existence, it would have been easier to swallow and easier to correct. Telling people their stories don't exist vs "we're telling storing on this Earth now" is easier to take, knowing " my Earth" is still out there. And once the experiment fails, you shift back to the Earth that worked.

Yeah, I'm not really sure how much the average reader cares about whether its the ''main earth'' or not. Most of the really popular stories of the past few years (or even decades) have been out-of-continuity stories. I'm talking about stuff like Batman White Knight, Superman Smashes the Klan and so on.

But to a larger point, if this is ultimately about whether one's favorite stories 'count' or not in current continuity, I'm not sure if the memories thing really helps. I mean, let's suppose that one really loves the idea of Clark Kent being Superboy in Smallville and having adventures with the LOSH. Does it really help if the official stance is that ''No he didn't really have adventures as Superboy in Smallville or with the LOSH...but he kinda remembers a past life where he did so''? It's not something that happened on this world. No one remembers it happening. Clark can't go back to Smallville and meet someone he rescued as Superboy. If he meets the Legion, they won't remember him as a former teammate. Clark's Superboy career can't really play a part in any contemporary story. Is the fact that he remembers being Superboy really going to make much of a difference?

There are compelling stories to be told with characters who remember other timelines/lives. Wally West remembering his pre-Flashpoint life and wanting to find a way to get it back is a powerful story. But the entire DCU being filled with heroes who remember these past lives that no one else remembers doesn't really work...unless you lean into the idea heavily and fundamentally alter the nature of the universe and its storytelling.

[JThree]

Yeah,
But to a larger point, if this is ultimately about whether one's favorite stories 'count' or not in current continuity, I'm not sure if the memories thing really helps. I mean, let's suppose that one really loves the idea of Clark Kent being Superboy in Smallville and having adventures with the LOSH. Does it really help if the official stance is that ''No he didn't really have adventures as Superboy in Smallville or with the LOSH...but he kinda remembers a past life where he did so''? It's not something that happened on this world. No one remembers it happening. Clark can't go back to Smallville and meet someone he rescued as Superboy. If he meets the Legion, they won't remember him as a former teammate. Clark's Superboy career can't really play a part in any contemporary story. Is the fact that he remembers being Superboy really going to make much of a difference?

There are compelling stories to be told with characters who remember other timelines/lives. Wally West remembering his pre-Flashpoint life and wanting to find a way to get it back is a powerful story. But the entire DCU being filled with heroes who remember these past lives that no one else remembers doesn't really work...unless you lean into the idea heavily and fundamentally alter the nature of the universe and its storytelling.

I understand what you're saying, but some readers feel differently. Do you remember the Alan Brennert Supergirl Christmas story, where Boston Brand came across Kara? It's one of my favorites. And the initial COIE moments where she died in Superman's arms were some moving that I hated to have Clark not remember them, or not come across them every now and than.

==jthree

[marhawkman]

But that's just it. Those old stories do count, just on their own Ear with this, as everything had been done and redone and cancelled and brought back that it's just been too confusing.

Personally, I think if DC had made the 52 it's own Earth originally instead of rewriting existence, it would have been easier to swallow and easier to correct. Telling people their stories don't exist vs "we're telling storing on this Earth now" is easier to take, knowing " my Earth" is still out there. And once the experiment fails, you shift back to the Earth that worked.

Well, part of the fun of having multiple universes is that you can go "this is an Earth-91 story"... and not worry about the main universe current events.

[bat39]

I understand what you're saying, but some readers feel differently. Do you remember the Alan Brennert Supergirl Christmas story, where Boston Brand came across Kara? It's one of my favorites. And the initial COIE moments where she died in Superman's arms were some moving that I hated to have Clark not remember them, or not come across them every now and than.

==jthree

Haven't read it but I heard about it. And from what I've heard, its particularly poignant because no one remembers Kara.

Again, on a case-by-case basis there are interesting stories to be told about characters remembering other lives. But it just doesn't make sense for this to apply en-mass to the DCU as a whole. And it certainly doesn't work as a substitute for some kind of continuity (even loose continuity).

Let's say Character A and Character B interact. You would expect their interactions to be based on some shared history. But which history will it be? Their current one or a past one that they both remember? What if their relationship was different in a past history? How does that work?

And that's before we get into stuff like the sliding timescale. Is Batman someone who was born in the 1980's or in the 1910's?

[Restingvoice]

Haven't read it but I heard about it. And from what I've heard, its particularly poignant because no one remembers Kara.

Again, on a case-by-case basis there are interesting stories to be told about characters remembering other lives. But it just doesn't make sense for this to apply en-mass to the DCU as a whole. And it certainly doesn't work as a substitute for some kind of continuity (even loose continuity).

Let's say Character A and Character B interact. You would expect their interactions to be based on some shared history. But which history will it be? Their current one or a past one that they both remember? What if their relationship was different in a past history? How does that work?

And that's before we get into stuff like the sliding timescale. Is Batman someone who was born in the 1980's or in the 1910's?

How does that work, it can be either one or both at the same time, depends on the writer and characters.

Example, in Dark Crisis prologue, Dick and Jon talked about Death of Superman. For Jon, that happened before 12 years ago, before he was born, but in Dick's memory, it happened as it happened originally, when Tim was already 14 years old Robin, at most 6 years ago. The book don't clarify, but it looks like Jon remembers the present continuity and Dick remembers the past, but it doesn't matter because they're focusing on the Death itself and its effect, which is the same.

An example of the confusion from differing memories is the Hall of Justice museum for Justice League. Clayface, disguised as a guide, explained that people don't agree on when or what exactly the first iteration of Justice League, while pointing at two exhibits. The Silver Age origin and the New 52 origin. This happens because people remember different origins.

---

Every time the world is rebooted, a new history is created, so 1980s (by my personal count it's 1976)

[Lightning Rider]

After thinking about it, whether something technically happened or not is academic. Does it feel like the character you're reading went through the key events of previous continuity?

For example, does Barry feel like a man who has helped mentor his sidekick, faced the (apparent) loss of his wife, killed his arch-nemesis, got put on trial, reunited with his wife in the future, and died a heroic death? Or does he feel like a relatively fresh young hero who struggles to mentor his sidekick and has yet to propose? Fans have mentioned how weird it is that Wally almost feels older that him at times now that they are alongside each other.

I could ask similar questions of Hal, Ollie, Superman/Lois, Aquaman (Aquababy), and probably more.

[Kirk Brent]

Because people DO not count stories of alternate earths. It's been fandom attitude for years.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. I disagree that this has been "fandom attitude for years." Marvel's use of the multiverse concept with Spider-Man has exposed more and more people to the idea of multiple versions of characters. The CW has done the same with less of a reach and now the MCU is using the concept. I don't think we're back to the days of pre-COIE when DC fans considered the DCU as a storytelling universe made up of multiple universes and versions of characters, but I do think that more fans than not accept the idea of alternate versions. This is both good and bad. For example, it's a shame that many seem to prefer the murdering Superman of Injustice or the murdering Batman of Flashpoint than the iconic versions of the characters. Meanwhile, we've seen faithful versions like Routh's Superman from the CW and Waid's World's Finest resonate with fans.

I think this is further proof that the Multiverse is the much better continuity solution than a vague and frankly ridiculous "everyone remembers past lives" concept. It's a poor attempt at meta-significance from Snyder, who simply doesn't have the capability to give such an idea depth or logic. Johns' Metaverse idea stands in stark contrast as how it can be done properly. I don't blame Snyder for that, as he was roped in by DiDio to expunge Doomsday Clock as much as possible.

[bat39]

How does that work, it can be either one or both at the same time, depends on the writer and characters.

Example, in Dark Crisis prologue, Dick and Jon talked about Death of Superman. For Jon, that happened before 12 years ago, before he was born, but in Dick's memory, it happened as it happened originally, when Tim was already 14 years old Robin, at most 6 years ago. The book don't clarify, but it looks like Jon remembers the present continuity and Dick remembers the past, but it doesn't matter because they're focusing on the Death itself and its effect, which is the same.

An example of the confusion from differing memories is the Hall of Justice museum for Justice League. Clayface, disguised as a guide, explained that people don't agree on when or what exactly the first iteration of Justice League, while pointing at two exhibits. The Silver Age origin and the New 52 origin. This happens because people remember different origins.

---

Every time the world is rebooted, a new history is created, so 1980s (by my personal count it's 1976)

So I did read the Dark Crisis prologue and I don't think there's necessarily a discrepancy between Dick and Jon's recollections. I think its entirely possible that the Death of Superman happened something like 12 years ago in-universe, before Jon's birth. That's if we accept the fact that Dick is currently pushing 30 (if not more) and Tim is in his early 20's. Which DC may never acknowledge on page, but it's the only way it makes sense. I'm not really sure at all what's to be gained by claiming that Dick remembers another version of the same event that Jon has also heard of (but apparently he's heard of a different version of the event? That we've never actually seen?)

Haven't read the bit about Clayface in the Hall of Justice. Again, this kind of meta-nod to conflicting stories is neat (much like the debate in Tom King's Batman about how/when Batman and Catwoman first met) but it really can't be the bedrock of DC continuity.

After thinking about it, whether something technically happened or not is academic. Does it feel like the character you're reading went through the key events of previous continuity?

For example, does Barry feel like a man who has helped mentor his sidekick, faced the (apparent) loss of his wife, killed his arch-nemesis, got put on trial, reunited with his wife in the future, and died a heroic death? Or does he feel like a relatively fresh young hero who struggles to mentor his sidekick and has yet to propose? Fans have mentioned how weird it is that Wally almost feels older that him at times now that they are alongside each other.

I could ask similar questions of Hal, Ollie, Superman/Lois, Aquaman (Aquababy), and probably more.

I completely agree.

I'm okay with loose continuity and broad strokes. Some superficial stuff can be ignored, overlooked, or even reconciled. It doesn't really matter, for instance, if a flashback in one book shows Batman in his Year One outfit beating up Falcone's thugs, while a flashback in another book shows him in his original Golden Age outfit fighting Monster Men. It doesn't really matter if Gordon was Lieutanant, Captain or Commissioner when Dick first became Robin.

But there are some more fundamental details that just cannot be left ambiguous. Like, are Jonathan and Martha Kent alive or dead? Was Barry ever married to Iris or not? Is Dinah Lance the original Black Canary, the daughter of the original Black Canary, someone born on this earth or someone from a parallel earth? Is Kara a teenager/young adult who was born on Krypton and is actually older than Kal-El, or is she a slightly older adult who's been on earth a long time, was born on Argo City, and is actually younger than Kal-El?

This was a huge problem with the New 52, as it now turns out, since even the writers didn't have answers to these questions about the characters they were writing! Gail Simone for instance didn't know if the Barbara Gordon she was writing was a veteran hero who spent years as Oracle, or a fairly rookie hero who's now back in the saddle after a three year 'break'. Scott Snyder had to resort to joking on a podcast about how Damian could be 10 while Bruce only became Batman 6 years ago. Present-day Superman in the New 52 was pretty much a blank slate, as was Lex Luthor. And no one knew if the Teen Titans existed before Tim's new team or not!

Since then, things are not a whole lot better. Supposedly, we have the New 52 continuity, but with bits and pieces of pre-Flashpoint continuity grafted on, plus some brand-new continuity and a vague claim that everyone remembers everything and that supposedly explains everything...

[John Venus]

I think while 'Everything Happened' is frustrating for me as a reader, it would be a huge boon for me as a writer.

It means I could publish a story where Batman has a random flashback to when he told Catwoman 'quiet of papa spank' and it would still completely be in canon. :P

Or a story about the Amazons Moon Festival from Marston's comic or a story that specifically references Badra's original appearance.

Or a sequel to the original Black Zero story 'The Man Who Destroyed Krypton'.

And all of it would be fine so long as I approach it in a broad strokes manner.

[marhawkman]

I think while 'Everything Happened' is frustrating for me as a reader, it would be a huge boon for me as a writer.

It means I could publish a story where Batman has a random flashback to when he told Catwoman 'quiet of papa spank' and it would still completely be in canon. :P

Or a story about the Amazons Moon Festival from Marston's comic or a story that specifically references Badra's original appearance.

Or a sequel to the original Black Zero story 'The Man Who Destroyed Krypton'.

And all of it would be fine so long as I approach it in a broad strokes manner.

But it needs a framework of what physical reality actually is. Say... Superman remembers having a relic from a planet that, in actuality he's never been to, and can't find it because it was a different him that went to that planet and no other version of him has. Sure as a writer you don't have to go there, but... It is a natural consequence of how unnatural the new status quo is. There is only one Metropolis on Earth and only one Earth. How many of those memories are of people/places/things that don't physically exist?

[Dataweaver]

But it needs a framework of what physical reality actually is. Say... Superman remembers having a relic from a planet that, in actuality he's never been to, and can't find it because it was a different him that went to that planet and no other version of him has. Sure as a writer you don't have to go there, but... It is a natural consequence of how unnatural the new status quo is. There is only one Metropolis on Earth and only one Earth. How many of those memories are of people/places/things that don't physically exist?

It looks like Johns may be tackling this “Everything Happened” issue in Flashpoint Beyond, and that his proposed solution is going to be Hypertime. That's what I'm getting out of his introduction of the “Divine Continuum”, consisting of Space (the Omniverse) and Time (Hypertime); and with his inclusion of Mime and Marionette, which makes it a sequel to Doomsday Clock. I think he's going to be presenting the notion that the Flashpoint timeline exists elsewhere in Hypertime, as do the “Metaversal spinoffs” that were introduced in the last issue of Doomsday Clock: Earth 2, Earth 1985, Earth 52, and others. This will lay the groundwork for restoring the original Hypertime notion of “Everything Happened”, which has the caveat of “…just not all in a single timeline”.

Dark Crisis, meanwhile, appears to be operating in the “Space” branch of Johns's Divine Continuum, being a story of the Omniverse. In particular, I expect that it will end up with the Multiverse-2 first mentioned by Morrison in Multiversity and recently revealed to be the ruins of the pre-Crisis Multiverse. Basically, I see Crisis on Infinite Earths, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, Multiversity, Dark Nights (both Metal and Death Metal), Infinite Frontier, and now Dark Crisis to be stories about the Omniverse; whereas Zero Hour, The Kingdom, Flashpoint, Convergence, Doomsday Clock, and now Flashpoint Beyond are stories about Hypertime. How the Omniverse and Hypertime relate to each other is an open question; my own preference is to view the Omniverse as existing within the central timeline of Hypertime, with each branch in Hypertime having its own version of the Omniverse. But that's just speculation on my part.

I'm hoping that when they finally end the current “Everything Happened” phase of DC's story (in the sense of “the denizens of Earth 0 remember every iteration of the Metaverse”), that Hypertime notion of “Everything Matters” will stick around. Let Earth 0 get a single, consistent history, where not everything happened; but make it clear that whatever gets removed from Earth-0's history exists elsewhere in Hypertime — and, just as importantly, that Hypertime isn't where stories go to die. Encourage more stories like Batman: White Knight or New Frontiers that don't even attempt to fit into the Metaverse; just slap an “Elseworlds” logo on the cover as a heads-up to any continuity cops that the story in question isn't in continuity and isn't subject to their jurisdiction: where the Elseworlds label is concerned, apply the advice of Rip Hunter from the introduction to the Justice League: New Frontier animated special:

“Hundreds of years ago they said the world was flat. Today, experts will try to tell you there are 52 worlds. The truth is there are infinite worlds out there and every year dozens more spring to life. The scientific term used to describe this state is ‘fictional’.

“Who cares what world we're on? Just sit back and enjoy these untold stories from the last heroic age.”

In short, let Earth 0 cater to continuity buffs, to the extent that that's still possible; and promote Elseworlds as something for DC writers who want to tell stories without being tied down to a single, consistent continuity.