Is It Possible for The X-Men To Go Back to Basics?

[Rev9]

Personally, I started reading the X-Men in the early 80's and the focus to me from then through the 90's was 'protecting a world that hates and fears them'(to the point that exact phrase was used at times in almost every issue in the 90's). The X-Men's primary focus seemed to be on fighting 'evil' mutants not only to protect the world from them but to try to prevent their actions from prejudicing humans against all mutants.

Since then, mutants have become increasingly godlike in power, increasingly removed from human life, and increasingly representing a potential threat to all life on Earth. Mutants, including the X-Men, have become more embracing of 'the future is mutant'(akin to some feminists adopting 'the future is female' slogan in the wake of scientists predicting the eventual demise of the male 'Y' chromosome) seeming to veer between wanting to subjugate humans or simply supplant them.

I look at the X-Men of the current comics and I see Mutants supremacists. Some already there and embracing it in all but name, some well along the path to it but not even seeing they are on a path, and others taking those first doomed steps on it. In the current era I have found myself no longer identifying with the X-Men as I have for decades but the humans who fear them. I think a lot of fans are in that boat whether they admit it or not.

For all the complaints about out-of-character behavior across wide swaths of the characters and seeming non-stop continuity errors, I think that change is the hardest for many fans to take.

Where have our heroes gone?

You're more right than you know..and I think the old school fans,myself included, are the ones having to rub our eyes

[Uncanny X-Man]

You're more right than you know..and I think the old school fans,myself included, are the ones having to rub our eyes

I consider myself pretty old school as I started reading comics in the mid-90s, and we've had DECADES of "fighting for a world that hates and fears them"... and that's not even counting the back-issues! The current status quo feels earned and a breath fresh air and I'm not looking for the books to go back to the previous status quo anytime soon.

That said, good writing and art mostly do it for me, regardless of whether it's the classic Blue/Gold setup or the bolder Utopia or Krakoa eras, good creative teams and editors can make it work for me. But a status quo that breaks the usual mold instantly opens up new storytelling possibilities, there's no denying that.

[Rev9]

I consider myself pretty old school as I started reading comics in the mid-90s, and we've had DECADES of "fighting for a world that hates and fears them"... and that's not even counting the back-issues! The current status quo feels earned and a breath fresh air and I'm not looking for the books to go back to the previous status quo anytime soon.

That said, good writing and art mostly do it for me, regardless of whether it's the classic Blue/Gold setup or the bolder Utopia or Krakoa eras, good creative teams and editors can make it work for me. But a status quo that breaks the usual mold instantly opens up new storytelling possibilities, there's no denying that.

I don't mean bringing back the slogan of 'Fighting for a world that fears and hates them' .For one I like Krakoa as an idea, establishing a culture ,a language , sovereignty that's great and I like that about what Hickman established but the thing is he framed all these things and by extension mutantdom as entirely different species based on a gene and has X-Men as an aloof,isolationist identity. It has fundamentally changed the relationship by framing everything as a species war for primacy.That is Magneto's dictum not Xavier's and while it isn't out of left field because this dictum has always existed.Looking forward it does not build bridges ,with almost every mutant enemy now being a normal human

[Grunty]

You're more right than you know..and I think the old school fans,myself included, are the ones having to rub our eyes

Rubbing one eyes is what i assume would happen to the fanbase of the X-men from outside the comic following circles too, if someone would try to bring the current status quo to the big or small screen as is (rather than heavily adjust it), followed by said fans quickly watching something else afterwards. Either rewatching the old stuff or waiting for new incarnations that are again closer to what they expect from X-men stories.

Because the important thing to consider is that there is a clear divide between the increasingly smaller comic readership, with their knowledge and awareness of 50+ years of good, bad and horrible stories and the general audience who might only have a handfull of movies and 3 cartoon shows under their belt. All who had been slightly different from one another and much more filtered through than the comic versions.

So they are simply not as burned out as many of us would be and therefor much less fed up with things being "basic", especialy since there are still many stories and events from the "basic times" of the comics that haven't been explored on screen yet. A rich history to still be explored before they would need to try something "experimental" from the current comics that might not resonate very well with said audience.

After all, the MCU with it's heros being quite "classic" in their ideals and adamant adherence to their morals, seems to show that the general audience is actualy much more invested in these basic versions, as reflected by the financial success of most of them, especialy compared to many of the current comics with their ever declining sales and constant collectors gimicks, resulting in barely anyone buying them in sustainable numbers. Not helped by Marvel selecting and putting writers in charge who either want to subvert things for the sake of it (or not having any good idea besides it) or even show open contempt for the "basics" of super hero comics.

Because it seemingly turns out, most paying customers of super hero stories what ever comics, cartoons or movies actualy like the basic setups of super hero stories, just in different variations. Who would have guessed?

Though i shouldn't forget to bring up that these versions aren't designed ad infinitum, but require for things to progress and eventualy end in some way, with the next version being a recreation with a different setup. Which keeps things fresh and decreases fatique and build up of depressing dead end narratives as the comics do.

That being said. I still consider the comics the best medium for the X-men. Since the written and drawn nature allows to display characterization, events and feats of skills and powers that neither the big nor small screen could ever repeat as easily or consistently within in the same time span and ease (or budget). Which is why i wish said comics could become more "mainstream" again in readership numbers. But perhaps things should finaly be designed to end and restart differently as other franchises have shown.

I consider myself pretty old school as I started reading comics in the mid-90s, and we've had DECADES of "fighting for a world that hates and fears them"... and that's not even counting the back-issues! The current status quo feels earned and a breath fresh air and I'm not looking for the books to go back to the previous status quo anytime soon.

That said, good writing and art mostly do it for me, regardless of whether it's the classic Blue/Gold setup or the bolder Utopia or Krakoa eras, good creative teams and editors can make it work for me. But a status quo that breaks the usual mold instantly opens up new storytelling possibilities, there's no denying that.

It's definetly better to sometimes break the molds and try something else if the core identity is remained. It was done successfully after all in the "basic" times.

But to me the current stauts quo feels like another dead end that will never go anywhere permanently or achieve anything lasting, since it goes too contrary to how things have to be in the Marvel Universe and it's nature as super hero comic. Which in my opinion makes it unsustainable in the long run and will just result in it's eventualy break down, leaving nothing but another sad pile of ash behind and a sour taste looking back.

It would have worked much better as elsewhere style story, especialy since that one might have allowed for goals to be achieved and things to change, since the status quo of the comics wouldn't need to come down like a hammer again.

Instead of just going one or two step into the right direction of correcting all the bad status quos of the last two decades (which is allready sad in itself), to bring everything on a line that will balance out the good and the bad things happening for mutants and give a sense of hope for their future again, it takes far too many steps in the opposite direction and set ups yet another downfall of mutants.

To me this is an Icarus story in the making, what ever the writers are aware of it or not.

[Devaishwarya]

This old school fan/reader's (since the early 80's) eyes are perfectly fine. I love and appreciate just how far the Mutants have come, and I'm reveling in their Krakoan journey now. Their past (as fun as it was) is the past and I have absolutely no wish to re-live it.

Possibly/hopefully, ten years hence when I'm in my 60's, I will be saying the same about this current era.

[Omega Alpha]

Rubbing one eyes is what i assume would happen to the fanbase of the X-men from outside the comic following circles too, if someone would try to bring the current status quo to the big or small screen as is (rather than heavily adjust it), followed by said fans quickly watching something else afterwards. Either rewatching the old stuff or waiting for new incarnations that are again closer to what they expect from X-men stories.

Because the important thing to consider is that there is a clear divide between the increasingly smaller comic readership, with their knowledge and awareness of 50+ years of good, bad and horrible stories and the general audience who might only have a handfull of movies and 3 cartoon shows under their belt. All who had been slightly different from one another and much more filtered through than the comic versions.

So they are simply not as burned out as many of us would be and therefor much less fed up with things being "basic", especialy since there are still many stories and events from the "basic times" of the comics that haven't been explored on screen yet. A rich history to still be explored before they would need to try something "experimental" from the current comics that might not resonate very well with said audience.

After all, the MCU with it's heros being quite "classic" in their ideals and adamant adherence to their morals, seems to show that the general audience is actualy much more invested in these basic versions, as reflected by the financial success of most of them, especialy compared to many of the current comics with their ever declining sales and constant collectors gimicks, resulting in barely anyone buying them in sustainable numbers. Not helped by Marvel selecting and putting writers in charge who either want to subvert things for the sake of it (or not having any good idea besides it) or even show open contempt for the "basics" of super hero comics.

Because it seemingly turns out, most paying customers of super hero stories what ever comics, cartoons or movies actualy like the basic setups of super hero stories, just in different variations. Who would have guessed?

Though i shouldn't forget to bring up that these versions aren't designed ad infinitum, but require for things to progress and eventualy end in some way, with the next version being a recreation with a different setup. Which keeps things fresh and decreases fatique and build up of depressing dead end narratives as the comics do.

That being said. I still consider the comics the best medium for the X-men. Since the written and drawn nature allows to display characterization, events and feats of skills and powers that neither the big nor small screen could ever repeat as easily or consistently within in the same time span and ease (or budget). Which is why i wish said comics could become more "mainstream" again in readership numbers. But perhaps things should finaly be designed to end and restart differently as other franchises have shown.



It's definetly better to sometimes break the molds and try something else if the core identity is remained. It was done successfully after all in the "basic" times.

But to me the current stauts quo feels like another dead end that will never go anywhere permanently or achieve anything lasting, since it goes too contrary to how things have to be in the Marvel Universe and it's nature as super hero comic. Which in my opinion makes it unsustainable in the long run and will just result in it's eventualy break down, leaving nothing but another sad pile of ash behind and a sour taste looking back.

It would have worked much better as elsewhere style story, especialy since that one might have allowed for goals to be achieved and things to change, since the status quo of the comics wouldn't need to come down like a hammer again.

Instead of just going one or two step into the right direction of correcting all the bad status quos of the last two decades (which is allready sad in itself), to bring everything on a line that will balance out the good and the bad things happening for mutants and give a sense of hope for their future again, it takes far too many steps in the opposite direction and set ups yet another downfall of mutants.

To me this is an Icarus story in the making, what ever the writers are aware of it or not.

What movie fans hypothetically wouldn't like doesn't matter, because the comics aren't supposed to be written for people who have no interest in them. It's far too much of a problem at Marvel to be writing trying to copy the movies, or trying to make one out of it, rather than tell the stories best suited for the format.

That said, you have no basis to say movie fans would reject this approach anymore than "I think they would want something like the old movies because I said so"- the fact the last 2 X-men movies (3 if you count NM) bombed is a good indication fans wouldn't care for the old stuff. Logan was a big hit, but that couldn't be more different from a traditional X-men story than anything else- including Krakoa.

And this idea that "doesn't bring mutants forward" is blatant non-sense. By the end of House of X #1 alone, Hickman had allowed more story potential than any other writer since Morrison. Just look at how many different X-men books we have had, and apart from the dreck in X-force, we didn't have any with negative or doom and gloom story.

I didn’t want to argue with you about the number of times the X-men saved humans. The biggest change for me is in X-men’s hearts and in the role the authors want to them to play: the X-men didn’t feel like a minority to me when I read their stories. They didn’t feel like representatives of a group separate from the humans: they evolved in a world of people with a lot of super-powered beings and they were a part of them. They had the same problems as Spider-man, the Ghost Rider and so on… People were afraid of an unusual apparence and/or astounding powers. And rightly so… I mean I’m human and I understand it. I recall the time when I entered a post office and saw this woman all in red with stilettos and horns… I backed off instinctively before remembering it was Halloween. And you don’t need to experiment it to imagine what it would be if some humans started to cast dangerous rays from their eyes or read your most secret thoughts and you don’t know who they are in the streets… When I read X-men stories, nothing how the other humans without powers did felt like the result of a hateful behaviour.

It was then and it is now: nowadays want the X-men representatives of a minority, the mutants. Before, the X-men were a bridge between the reader and otherness in all its forms. They brought people together, now they divide. They didn’t accept the fact they were separate from humanity and didn’t let the others define them. Now they embrace it. Well, as a reader, I wish “them” good luck on Krakoa, on other worlds but what they “do” now has nothing to do with me. Claremont said that he wrote stories the reader could relate with, it’s not the case anymore for me. I’ve come to understand that it’s not the case for other readers: the X-men of this era mean something to them. It never ceases to amaze me… You can read these stories as entertaining fiction, right… but now the X-men feel so alien. If any reader meets one of them in real life, what would be their conversation? Before, they felt like friends and not like people with a patronising attitude. They die? They resuscitate. They are on a far remote island and not anymore with us. And we should be happy they still save humans?

You say something, I say something, it’s how boards function. You enjoy these “new X-men“, fine. It still surprises me but I accept it. I wonder what it means for times we are living in, if it means something. Our heroes are very different. They tell different stories. Yours are not mine. But maybe I experiment another kind of otherness…

If you want a book with mutants as just another superhero team, you had Duggan's X-men. Wolverine's book is about Wolverine doing Wolverine-like things, just with Krakoa as a backdrop.

But for the overwhelming majority of fans, the big appeal of the X-men was always that they were NOT just another superhero team just getting by. Other superhero teams didn't have to worry about the government building robots to murder them, or being reviled by the the world they save every day, or had their biggest enemy join the team because they ultimately want the same thing, just have different methods. Other teams didn't had to train new recruits who weren't experienced supeheroes when joined, but rather frightened teenagers who had to leave their families, sometimes for good, or being hunted for extinction just because of their genes- or had supremacists declaring they are superior exactly because of their genes and the heroes had to deal with them to.

Basically, your approach is exactly the opposite of what made the X-men a hit in the first place.

[Krakoa]

I disagree that the best, most historic X-Men status quo is even what older fans are portraying it as. Much of the best section of the Claremont run (starting around issue 200ish) questions Xavier's dream and is about protecting mutants more aggressively. It's the very mixed bag 90s Blue/Gold era that really took this approach.

I also laugh any time older fans have an issue with mutants being resurrected by telepaths putting their mind into identical bodies because Claremont literally has the Shi'ar do that for Xavier at one point.

[Omega Alpha]

I disagree that the best, most historic X-Men status quo is even what older fans are portraying it as. Much of the best section of the Claremont run (starting around issue 200ish) questions Xavier's dream and is about protecting mutants more aggressively. It's the very mixed bag 90s Blue/Gold era that really took this approach.

I also laugh any time older fans have an issue with mutants being resurrected by telepaths putting their mind into identical bodies because Claremont literally has the Shi'ar do that for Xavier at one point.

Exactly. There has never been a more isolationist X-men than the Outback team- and few as aggressive-, yet the same people criticizing Krakoa love it.

[Krakoa]

I didn’t want to argue with you about the number of times the X-men saved humans. The biggest change for me is in X-men’s hearts and in the role the authors want to them to play: the X-men didn’t feel like a minority to me when I read their stories. They didn’t feel like representatives of a group separate from the humans: they evolved in a world of people with a lot of super-powered beings and they were a part of them. They had the same problems as Spider-man, the Ghost Rider and so on… People were afraid of an unusual apparence and/or astounding powers. And rightly so… I mean I’m human and I understand it. I recall the time when I entered a post office and saw this woman all in red with stilettos and horns… I backed off instinctively before remembering it was Halloween. And you don’t need to experiment it to imagine what it would be if some humans started to cast dangerous rays from their eyes or read your most secret thoughts and you don’t know who they are in the streets… When I read X-men stories, nothing how the other humans without powers did felt like the result of a hateful behaviour.

It was then and it is now: nowadays want the X-men representatives of a minority, the mutants. Before, the X-men were a bridge between the reader and otherness in all its forms. They brought people together, now they divide. They didn’t accept the fact they were separate from humanity and didn’t let the others define them. Now they embrace it. Well, as a reader, I wish “them” good luck on Krakoa, on other worlds but what they “do” now has nothing to do with me. Claremont said that he wrote stories the reader could relate with, it’s not the case anymore for me. I’ve come to understand that it’s not the case for other readers: the X-men of this era mean something to them. It never ceases to amaze me… You can read these stories as entertaining fiction, right… but now the X-men feel so alien. If any reader meets one of them in real life, what would be their conversation? Before, they felt like friends and not like people with a patronising attitude. They die? They resuscitate. They are on a far remote island and not anymore with us. And we should be happy they still save humans?

You say something, I say something, it’s how boards function. You enjoy these “new X-men“, fine. It still surprises me but I accept it. I wonder what it means for times we are living in, if it means something. Our heroes are very different. They tell different stories. Yours are not mine. But maybe I experiment another kind of otherness…

I am genuinely confused what books you were reading, to be honest. Claremont's books, particularly as his run gets into the 80s, are about mutants as a minority. And they were never about "otherness in all its forms". They were about mutants as specific minorities. Claremont's run is FULL of overt references to the holocaust as well as comparisons between African-American civil rights and mutant rights. The 90s X-Men brought queerness into the equation, subtextual with stories like the Legacy Virus and textual with stuff like Xavier's speech in X-Cutioners Song.

[mbm721]

Exactly. There has never been a more isolationist X-men than the Outback team- and few as aggressive-, yet the same people criticizing Krakoa love it.

But the outback team was “dead” to the world and stayed hidden as a tactical advantage, and lasted for about 21 issues (229-250) May 1988-October 1989 which is relatively short and sweet compared to other status quos

[Rift]

There's no point in speaking for what any of us assume the normies would want. We all know they want Hellion, and lots of him. As long as the story revolves around him, anything they go with will be a success.

[Grunty]

There's no point in speaking for what any of us assume the normies would want. We all know they want Hellion, and lots of him. As long as the story revolves around him, anything they go with will be a success.

Can't argue with universal truths.

[H-E-D]

After all, the MCU with it's heros being quite "classic" in their ideals and adamant adherence to their morals, seems to show that the general audience is actualy much more invested in these basic versions, as reflected by the financial success of most of them, especialy compared to many of the current comics with their ever declining sales and constant collectors gimicks, resulting in barely anyone buying them in sustainable numbers. Not helped by Marvel selecting and putting writers in charge who either want to subvert things for the sake of it (or not having any good idea besides it) or even show open contempt for the "basics" of super hero comics.

By this point, most MCU content is based off comics from the past 17 or so years. Hardly steadfastly classic.

[marhawkman]

I didn’t want to argue with you about the number of times the X-men saved humans. The biggest change for me is in X-men’s hearts and in the role the authors want to them to play: the X-men didn’t feel like a minority to me when I read their stories. They didn’t feel like representatives of a group separate from the humans: they evolved in a world of people with a lot of super-powered beings and they were a part of them. They had the same problems as Spider-man, the Ghost Rider and so on… People were afraid of an unusual apparence and/or astounding powers. And rightly so… I mean I’m human and I understand it. I recall the time when I entered a post office and saw this woman all in red with stilettos and horns… I backed off instinctively before remembering it was Halloween. And you don’t need to experiment it to imagine what it would be if some humans started to cast dangerous rays from their eyes or read your most secret thoughts and you don’t know who they are in the streets… When I read X-men stories, nothing how the other humans without powers did felt like the result of a hateful behaviour.

It was then and it is now: nowadays want the X-men representatives of a minority, the mutants. Before, the X-men were a bridge between the reader and otherness in all its forms. They brought people together, now they divide. They didn’t accept the fact they were separate from humanity and didn’t let the others define them. Now they embrace it. Well, as a reader, I wish “them” good luck on Krakoa, on other worlds but what they “do” now has nothing to do with me. Claremont said that he wrote stories the reader could relate with, it’s not the case anymore for me. I’ve come to understand that it’s not the case for other readers: the X-men of this era mean something to them. It never ceases to amaze me… You can read these stories as entertaining fiction, right… but now the X-men feel so alien. If any reader meets one of them in real life, what would be their conversation? Before, they felt like friends and not like people with a patronising attitude. They die? They resuscitate. They are on a far remote island and not anymore with us. And we should be happy they still save humans?

You say something, I say something, it’s how boards function. You enjoy these “new X-men“, fine. It still surprises me but I accept it. I wonder what it means for times we are living in, if it means something. Our heroes are very different. They tell different stories. Yours are not mine. But maybe I experiment another kind of otherness…

Yeah, the general tone of the Xmen changed when writers started writing them as wanting to self-segregate from the rest of the Human race.

Is it meant to feel like the Xmen are treating the rest of the human race as inferior beings? I dunno but it comes across like that. That really kinda ruins the story though.

[Zelena]

I am genuinely confused what books you were reading, to be honest. Claremont's books, particularly as his run gets into the 80s, are about mutants as a minority. And they were never about "otherness in all its forms". They were about mutants as specific minorities. Claremont's run is FULL of overt references to the holocaust as well as comparisons between African-American civil rights and mutant rights. The 90s X-Men brought queerness into the equation, subtextual with stories like the Legacy Virus and textual with stuff like Xavier's speech in X-Cutioners Song.

Claremont’s stories didn’t feel like the X-men embodied the minorities because the X-men met these minorities (except the queers)… They also met “minorities” that didn’t exist like the Inhumans, aliens and sentient machines… There were references to the Holocaust but the X-men didn’t replace the ones who suffered from it, they didn’t attract all the attention in the comics.

The X-men rarely dealt with people without a problem of any sort, they helped these people and these latter were far from being just mutants.

Actually the one who wanted to explain all his actions by being a mutant was Magneto. He was the counter-point of the X-men. Claremont could use him to tell darker stories while the X-men were more positive people.