Superman's intelligence

[DochaDocha]

The comparison I'd make is that Superman should be like an AI that can be trained. He has the potential to interpolate and things that no human could do, but he starts out as an empty slate. If you were to write a bunch of one-off stories, he starts out without the knowledge to do something, but develops it at some point.

[Jim Kelly]

I think this always comes back to the question of "Should Superman". "Should Superman be as fast as flash, smart as Batman, fly as well as Hawkman, be as Alien as Jonn Jonzz." It always comes back to the idea that Classic Superman does too much and shouldn't take up any of his successors gigs. I always side on more is better but I am succumbing to old age as I type. In my mind, of course he should do all those things and to the Nth degree. No one ever says to Batman, "You can't be the Worlds Greatest Detective, that's Detective Chimps whole deal!"

Yeah, but anyone who engages in that kind of logic is just making up a daft argument to undermine Superman's status as the World's Greatest Super-Hero. It's common knowledge that Superman came before any of them. Back in the day, creators wanted to copy the success of Superman, but they knew they couldn't copy everything off of him outright, so one idea they had was to copy some aspect of him. And that's how the specialist super-heroes were born.

Imagine if Marvel took the same position with Spider-Man. Never mind that he came before the X-Men--as a group the X-Men have most of the qualities of Spidey, therefore Peter has to dial it back and not be so good at everything to let the X-Men shine.

As far as Batman being super-intelligent, Bill Finger and Bob Kane never created him to be that. He was smart but fallible. That way crooks got the jump on him and put him in all those crazy traps. Batman is supposed to be a regular human being who has to struggle against adversity to capture the bad guys. The push to make Batman the most intelligent of all the super-heroes ever created is ridiculous fan wonk gone overboard.

[DABellWrites]

In his own books: he should be the most smartest, powerful, and fastest, but still have people who can challenge him. In other books: Superman should be powerful, smart, and fast, but not enough to overshadow others. But, not stupid enough where Superman is a goddamn idiot like many wrote him post-crisis. This goes for other characters. If I'm reading a Batman book, I want Bruce to be the best. If I'm reading a GL book, I want Hal (or whoever the writer uses), for Green Arrow, Wildcat, Hawk & Dove, etc.
It doesn't matter the character, (hero or villain) they shouldn't be overshadowed.

[Agent Z]

Yeah, but anyone who engages in that kind of logic is just making up a daft argument to undermine Superman's status as the World's Greatest Super-Hero. It's common knowledge that Superman came before any of them. Back in the day, creators wanted to copy the success of Superman, but they knew they couldn't copy everything off of him outright, so one idea they had was to copy some aspect of him. And that's how the specialist super-heroes were born.

Imagine if Marvel took the same position with Spider-Man. Never mind that he came before the X-Men--as a group the X-Men have most of the qualities of Spidey, therefore Peter has to dial it back and not be so good at everything to let the X-Men shine.

As far as Batman being super-intelligent, Bill Finger and Bob Kane never created him to be that. He was smart but fallible. That way crooks got the jump on him and put him in all those crazy traps. Batman is supposed to be a regular human being who has to struggle against adversity to capture the bad guys. The push to make Batman the most intelligent of all the super-heroes ever created is ridiculous fan wonk gone overboard.

And Superman being faster, stronger and smarter than everyone else isn't?

Superman isn't anymore deserving of sitting at the top of the food chain than anyone else just because he is falsely believed to have came first. And personally I find it daft that so many fans think not being as smart as Batman or as fast as the Flash is a problem when the guy is still treated as more powerful than 98% of superheroes even in post crisis. And he's the only superhero who fans think should be limited in some way.

[Agent Z]

Clark's the son of the most talented scientist on a world full of highly intelligent, advanced people (who in many versions, liked to tinker with genetics and made sure everyone had a role and place, often associated with what their House was known for). His raw IQ should make most humans feel entirely inadequate. Lex and Mr. Terrific and a few other big brains should rival or surpass him, but.....just to put it into perspective; Power Girl learned, in Kryptonian high school, stuff that it took Michael Holt (with all his different degrees) months of research to figure out. They're a smart people, Kryptonians. Sure, Terrific had to do the work himself while PG didn't, but I didn't understand the theory of relativity in high school despite not having to do the fundamental discovery work.

But two things add really interesting wrinkles to this.

First; Clark definitely dips his toe into the hard sciences of physics, engineering, chemistry, etc., but they're not where his heart is. He's a sociologist and philosopher. He knows his way around a lab, but he finds the problems of people more complex, compelling, and challenging than he does some tricky bit of research in the Fortress.

Secondly, his education. Clark has a wildly uneven educational background. Most of what he knows, he learned on earth from earthlings. He learned the same stuff we did in school, and while he certainly did his own independent studies, he'd still be limited by what *we* know. But he also has these experiences with technology/knowledge well beyond our own; stuff in the Fortress, alien invaders, the 31st century, etc. That stuff opens him up to all kinds of things earthlings haven't even theorized yet. Clark has a relatively grounded base of education (which negates a lot of his IQ in a lot of ways), offset by these narrow but deep dives into all manner of odd bits and pieces of scientific inquiry.

Clark's the kind of guy who might know how to build a time sphere, because he helped Brainy repair one in the 31st century, but wouldn't know how to build something far less complex, like a force field or something.

As for Clark's IQ making all the other heroes redundant, I don't think that's true at all. That argument has never made any sense to me. But if it's true? Then maybe those other heroes need to step up their game. Maybe we shouldn't expect Clark to be less, because so few can keep up with him. Maybe we should ask that those who'd stand with him actually be capable of it. Maybe Superman wouldn't make everyone redundant if they didn't suck!

Many people see no difference between others being raised to Superman's level and him being brought down to there's.

[Agent Z]

Not as smart as he was pre-crisis with super brain; smarter than he was post-crisis when he can't think of a way to get Green Arrow out of an exploding plane. I see him as having not his IQ "supercharged" but the neural pathways; etc, that allows him to think faster and strategize better.

He knew how to get Oliver out of the plane. It was the bomb Oliver had strapped himself to that was the problem since removing it required cutting off Oliver's arm to get it off safely and even that was a risk.

[marhawkman]

Yeah, but anyone who engages in that kind of logic is just making up a daft argument to undermine Superman's status as the World's Greatest Super-Hero. It's common knowledge that Superman came before any of them. Back in the day, creators wanted to copy the success of Superman, but they knew they couldn't copy everything off of him outright, so one idea they had was to copy some aspect of him. And that's how the specialist super-heroes were born.

Imagine if Marvel took the same position with Spider-Man. Never mind that he came before the X-Men--as a group the X-Men have most of the qualities of Spidey, therefore Peter has to dial it back and not be so good at everything to let the X-Men shine.

As far as Batman being super-intelligent, Bill Finger and Bob Kane never created him to be that. He was smart but fallible. That way crooks got the jump on him and put him in all those crazy traps. Batman is supposed to be a regular human being who has to struggle against adversity to capture the bad guys. The push to make Batman the most intelligent of all the super-heroes ever created is ridiculous fan wonk gone overboard.

Yeah, Bruce Wayne has above-average intelligence, but shouldn't be seen as a genius level intellect. He shouldn't be written as being smarter than, for example, the Riddler, because then Riddler has no edge.

[daredevil1]

He knew how to get Oliver out of the plane. It was the bomb Oliver had strapped himself to that was the problem since removing it required cutting off Oliver's arm to get it off safely and even that was a risk.

I have to figure that if he ripped the door off the plane and flew Ollie out fast enough to escape the blast (and it blew up midair anyway so the wreckage was not avoided), it would've worked better. It was just a plot contrivance though to kill him off, and the only reason Supes was there was to bear witness to it. But the smart version would've come up with something better than *nothing*.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I don't mind Batman written as a genius, I think he is the peak of human potential, in another universe he could be Lex Luthor. I don't think that's out of character. Likewise with Superman, I think his whole schtick, and this goes back to Golden Age Comics, is to always meet a limitation and then surpass it. Whenever he faces an impossibility, it's within his character to go beyond that limit. Thats why they invented Kryptonite and brought in Mxyzptlk. Thats why giving Superman hard limits and saying he cant possibly match or surpass other JLA members feels out of character. Yes I want challenges, but the whole point of being Superman is meeting those challenges.

[phonogram12]

As for Clark's IQ making all the other heroes redundant, I don't think that's true at all. That argument has never made any sense to me. But if it's true? Then maybe those other heroes need to step up their game. Maybe we shouldn't expect Clark to be less, because so few can keep up with him. Maybe we should ask that those who'd stand with him actually be capable of it. Maybe Superman wouldn't make everyone redundant if they didn't suck!

I don't trust DC to handle this well, tbh. I can just see this turning into an ugly, neverending game of one up mans ship.

I'd instead say that a kid whose senses took in more information than any other person. Someone who could examine things microscopically without any equipment. Or who has to keep track of things while moving at superhuman speed. I'd say those things would give Clark one heck of an advantage over the next guy in learning how the world works and learning it rapidly.

Now this I can get behind. It gives credence to why Supes sees sentient life on a whole 'nother level.

Not as smart as he was pre-crisis with super brain; smarter than he was post-crisis when he can't think of a way to get Green Arrow out of an exploding plane.

Defintely.

In his own books: he should be the most smartest, powerful, and fastest, but still have people who can challenge him. In other books: Superman should be powerful, smart, and fast, but not enough to overshadow others. But, not stupid enough where Superman is a goddamn idiot like many wrote him post-crisis. This goes for other characters. If I'm reading a Batman book, I want Bruce to be the best. If I'm reading a GL book, I want Hal (or whoever the writer uses), for Green Arrow, Wildcat, Hawk & Dove, etc.
It doesn't matter the character, (hero or villain) they shouldn't be overshadowed.

All of this as well.

[The Frog Bros]

The comparison I'd make is that Superman should be like an AI that can be trained. He has the potential to interpolate and things that no human could do, but he starts out as an empty slate. If you were to write a bunch of one-off stories, he starts out without the knowledge to do something, but develops it at some point.

A learning computer [in Arnold's Terminator voice].

I agree and see Superman’s intelligence as constantly evolving. Meaning, he can learn anything at any time, yet doesn’t necessarily know everything at a given moment. For example, knowing most known languages having studied them; and those that he may not know he can learn quickly. Or when he reads how to perform certain emergency surgery in order to save Lois (or whoever else).

Clark's the son of the most talented scientist on a world full of highly intelligent, advanced people (who in many versions, liked to tinker with genetics and made sure everyone had a role and place, often associated with what their House was known for). His raw IQ should make most humans feel entirely inadequate. Lex and Mr. Terrific and a few other big brains should rival or surpass him, but.....just to put it into perspective; Power Girl learned, in Kryptonian high school, stuff that it took Michael Holt (with all his different degrees) months of research to figure out. They're a smart people, Kryptonians. Sure, Terrific had to do the work himself while PG didn't, but I didn't understand the theory of relativity in high school despite not having to do the fundamental discovery work.

But two things add really interesting wrinkles to this.

First; Clark definitely dips his toe into the hard sciences of physics, engineering, chemistry, etc., but they're not where his heart is. He's a sociologist and philosopher. He knows his way around a lab, but he finds the problems of people more complex, compelling, and challenging than he does some tricky bit of research in the Fortress.

Secondly, his education. Clark has a wildly uneven educational background. Most of what he knows, he learned on earth from earthlings. He learned the same stuff we did in school, and while he certainly did his own independent studies, he'd still be limited by what *we* know. But he also has these experiences with technology/knowledge well beyond our own; stuff in the Fortress, alien invaders, the 31st century, etc. That stuff opens him up to all kinds of things earthlings haven't even theorized yet. Clark has a relatively grounded base of education (which negates a lot of his IQ in a lot of ways), offset by these narrow but deep dives into all manner of odd bits and pieces of scientific inquiry.

Clark's the kind of guy who might know how to build a time sphere, because he helped Brainy repair one in the 31st century, but wouldn't know how to build something far less complex, like a force field or something.

As for Clark's IQ making all the other heroes redundant, I don't think that's true at all. That argument has never made any sense to me. But if it's true? Then maybe those other heroes need to step up their game. Maybe we shouldn't expect Clark to be less, because so few can keep up with him. Maybe we should ask that those who'd stand with him actually be capable of it. Maybe Superman wouldn't make everyone redundant if they didn't suck!

He would get along great with Doc Emmett Brown, who’s scientific endeavors are based on studying the human condition, “who we are, where we are going…” for the betterment of humanity in general. All the gadgets, computers, and other such things in the Fortress are built with this general principle in mind.

Overall, I think it's in his DNA to have a true thirst for knowledge.

[Ascended]

Many people see no difference between others being raised to Superman's level and him being brought down to there's.

And many people think the world is actually flat and trickle down economics work. Screw 'em.

I'd rather see everyone elevated, even if it causes an ugly cycle of one-upmanship like phonogram suggests, then see everyone written like morons for the benefit of DC's favorite pet characters.

[DochaDocha]

For a World's Finest story, I'd be okay if Batman were the lead detective if Superman were the "tech," for lack of a better term, handling things like data analysis, calculations, scoping, and audio bugging. Hell, it's the one of the very few times I'd be okay with a "Batman teaches Superman how to..." story.

[phonogram12]

And many people think the world is actually flat and trickle down economics work. Screw 'em.

I'd rather see everyone elevated, even if it causes an ugly cycle of one-upmanship like phonogram suggests, then see everyone written like morons for the benefit of DC's favorite pet characters.

I mean, I'd be open to seeing it, I just don't have much faith in the execution. Or maybe I'm just thinking about how much uglier these boards would get as a result? lol

Another thing I hadn't considered is that some writers may actually prefer to write a more "farm boy" version of Clark or simply may not know how to write a smarter version of the character.

Guh, I'm really beginning to hate shared universes even more now. This is something I really don't see anywhere near as much at Marvel.

[Lightning Rider]

For a World's Finest story, I'd be okay if Batman were the lead detective if Superman were the "tech," for lack of a better term, handling things like data analysis, calculations, scoping, and audio bugging. Hell, it's the one of the very few times I'd be okay with a "Batman teaches Superman how to..." story.

Yeah, I think there are many different ways to be intelligent, and Superman's raw intellect is best expressed in raw, calculative ways. He's got a perfect memory, can compute astronomical numbers in a fraction of a second, and given all his senses, can intuit scientific application on a micro-level fairly easily.

That's different to deductive and inductive reasoning, having sophisticated knowledge of behavioral patterns, knowing how to provoke a certain response from a particular villain's psychological profile, and putting yourselves in the shoes of a suspect. That's what Batman does.

There's also emotional intelligence, the wisdom of learning through experience, knowledge of self, etc. Those will vary.