View Poll Results: Best Supporting Cast

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  • Golden Age (Steve, Etta, Darnell, Paula, etc)

    9 26.47%
  • White Suit era (I-Ching)

    0 0%
  • Perez (Julia, Vanessa, Mindi, old Steve, etc)

    7 20.59%
  • Byrne (Helena, Cassie, Artemis, Blood, Mike, etc)

    0 0%
  • Jimenez (Trevor Barnes,)

    0 0%
  • Rucka (Fernidand, Embassy staff,)

    4 11.76%
  • Simone (the Gorillas, Tom Tressor, Sarge Steel )

    0 0%
  • Nu52 (Steve Trevor, Orion, Lennox, etc)

    2 5.88%
  • Rebirth (Steve, Etta, Ratatosk, Sigfried, etc)

    12 35.29%
  • Other (please specify)

    0 0%
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  1. #16
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Etta developed an eating disorder, and her desire to lose weight happened in the Perez run. With her citing a desire to have a body like Diana's when she was younger. In the Jimenez run, she looked at her wedding album with Lois and expressed a bit of annoyance that people had been looking at Diana more than her. Etta didn't appear much post Crisis, but these issues seemed to crop up whenever she did until Simone got ahold of her and injected more of her Golden Age personality into her. Not that exploring these topics is an inherently bad idea, it just never fit the character Etta was designed to be.

    Lois and Jimmy absolutely do have personalities roughly equivalent to someone like Etta. It's why Lois in particular has been a continued part of Superman's adventures, her chosen profession and willingness to throw herself into danger keep her involved in Clarks superhero adventures even when the context of love interest isn't factored in. Jimmy is a fearless photographer who takes his constant weird ass transformations in stride, and likes to dress in drag. He doesn't get much use these days, but when he does in stuff like All Star and his own recent series, it's always well received and has it's roots in all that crazy stuff. Julia and Vanessa work great in Dianas early years, but a single mother with a teenage daughter don't lend themselves as being free to participate in the Acton adventures Diana needs to take part in, which may be why they fell by the wayside unless angst can be wrung out of Vanessa's traumas.
    I mean, they fell by the wayside because they were replaced with discount versions of themselves.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Etta developed an eating disorder, and her desire to lose weight happened in the Perez run. With her citing a desire to have a body like Diana's when she was younger. In the Jimenez run, she looked at her wedding album with Lois and expressed a bit of annoyance that people had been looking at Diana more than her. Etta didn't appear much post Crisis, but these issues seemed to crop up whenever she did until Simone got ahold of her and injected more of her Golden Age personality into her. Not that exploring these topics is an inherently bad idea, it just never fit the character Etta was designed to be.

    Lois and Jimmy absolutely do have personalities roughly equivalent to someone like Etta. It's why Lois in particular has been a continued part of Superman's adventures, her chosen profession and willingness to throw herself into danger keep her involved in Clarks superhero adventures even when the context of love interest isn't factored in. Jimmy is a fearless photographer who takes his constant weird ass transformations in stride, and likes to dress in drag. He doesn't get much use these days, but when he does in stuff like All Star and his own recent series, it's always well received and has it's roots in all that crazy stuff. Julia and Vanessa work great in Dianas early years, but a single mother with a teenage daughter don't lend themselves as being free to participate in the Acton adventures Diana needs to take part in, which may be why they fell by the wayside unless angst can be wrung out of Vanessa's traumas.
    Julia is an archaeologist. I don't think it's too difficult to integrate her into adventures. Perez didn't seem to have that issue.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 06-01-2022 at 07:16 AM.

  3. #18
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Etta developed an eating disorder, and her desire to lose weight happened in the Perez run. With her citing a desire to have a body like Diana's when she was younger. In the Jimenez run, she looked at her wedding album with Lois and expressed a bit of annoyance that people had been looking at Diana more than her. Etta didn't appear much post Crisis, but these issues seemed to crop up whenever she did until Simone got ahold of her and injected more of her Golden Age personality into her. Not that exploring these topics is an inherently bad idea, it just never fit the character Etta was designed to be...
    I totally agree, with your conclusion. Etta was created to be something entirely different, than what Lynda's 70s show portrayed, with Bea Cohen. Conceptually speaking, G-Age Etta was something like a cross between Hulk's pal, Rick Jones, and Batman's Robin - never knew a sad, fatgirl archetype day in her life!

    As the kids say, G-Age Etta Candy was off the chain. I can totally understand, now (but didn't, always), why guys reading WW in the 1940s and 50s, typically site Etta, as a favorite WW character. They LOVE her!
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  4. #19
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I mean, they fell by the wayside because they were replaced with discount versions of themselves.
    This is kind of why I have no interest in the Sandsmarks. I'm "meh" on the whole YJ generation in general, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Julia is an archaeologist. I don't think it's too difficult to integrate her into adventures. Perez didn't seem to have that issue.
    Yeah but she's also a mother to a normal teenage girl. Her occupation could rope her into some adventures (and they should), but her responsibilities as a parent put more limits on her being involved than Steve or Etta. As a non-sidekick teen, we saw how her involvement in Dianas life lead to Vanessa being traumatized by all the stuff that follows Wonder Woman around. It's why Julia and Vanessa would work great as part of a core supporting cast, but putting them firmly above Steve, Etta and even Ferdinand might not work for ongoing superhero stories

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    This is kind of why I have no interest in the Sandsmarks. I'm "meh" on the whole YJ generation in general, too.



    Yeah but she's also a mother to a normal teenage girl. Her occupation could rope her into some adventures (and they should), but her responsibilities as a parent put more limits on her being involved than Steve or Etta. As a non-sidekick teen, we saw how her involvement in Dianas life lead to Vanessa being traumatized by all the stuff that follows Wonder Woman around. It's why Julia and Vanessa would work great as part of a core supporting cast, but putting them firmly above Steve, Etta and even Ferdinand might not work for ongoing superhero stories
    Fiction has plenty examples of parents who go on adventures. Some are single, some have a spouse. And it isn't like all the stuff that happens in Diana's life would be traumatizing to only Vanessa.

    I don't think anyone is asking for them to be above Steve and Etta either.

  6. #21
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Fiction has plenty examples of parents who go on adventures. Some are single, some have a spouse. And it isn't like all the stuff that happens in Diana's life would be traumatizing to only Vanessa.

    I don't think anyone is asking for them to be above Steve and Etta either.
    So far, Vanessa is really the only character in this IP to be traumatized and have that trauma explored in a semi natural way. So she effectively is the only one until that changes. Julia is not really the adventuring parent. She will absolutely step up and help Diana if she needs to, but Perez didn't characterize her as being willing to jump into things the way Steve would as his entire job or Holliday Girl Etta would because she's young and has no other responsibilities tying her down. So there should be stories where Julia joins in, but as the main supporting role in Man's World, I'm not sure that works in every regular stories

    My original response was to John Venus saying Steve and Etta only work as starter characters and they are static, while Julia and Vanessa work better in an ongoing basis. I disagree and think they are more or less all on equal footing in having things they can bring to the table or limitations. Julia and Vanessa effectively WERE the starter characters in the post Crisis canon as they were dropped until Jimenez

  7. #22
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    This is kind of why I have no interest in the Sandsmarks. I'm "meh" on the whole YJ generation in general, too.
    Well, we're on the same page when it comes to that. Though mainly because it seems elsewhere writers only have a real interest in Cassie as the girlfriend for her Super or Bat equivalent.

  8. #23

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    Julia is a mom and an archaeologist. Vanessa is a normal teenage girl with normal teenage problems. They contrast with Diana and Hippolyta who are larger than life mythological beings whose stories are often metaphorical versions of what someone like Julia and Vanessa would experience in real life.

    As Agent Z and Gaius they're only problem is, like most WW supporting characters they haven't been used consistently.

    It's been a while since I read Byrne's run but I recall Helena Sandsmark often being more meek and prone to freaking which contrasted with Cassie's enthusiastic go getter attitude. They came across like the inverse of Julia and Vanessa. Julia always came across as someone who wouldn't seek out trouble but if it comes her way she wouldn't hesitate to face up to it. While Vanessa came across as a more introverted depressed teenager while Cassie was the fan girl.

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  9. #24
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Julia is a mom and an archaeologist. Vanessa is a normal teenage girl with normal teenage problems. They contrast with Diana and Hippolyta who are larger than life mythological beings whose stories are often metaphorical versions of what someone like Julia and Vanessa would experience in real life.

    As Agent Z and Gaius they're only problem is, like most WW supporting characters they haven't been used consistently.

    It's been a while since I read Byrne's run but I recall Helena Sandsmark often being more meek and prone to freaking which contrasted with Cassie's enthusiastic go getter attitude. They came across like the inverse of Julia and Vanessa. Julia always came across as someone who wouldn't seek out trouble but if it comes her way she wouldn't hesitate to face up to it. While Vanessa came across as a more introverted depressed teenager while Cassie was the fan girl.
    That is a great selling point for why the Kapatelis women are important and why they should be used. They are a more positive parallel to Hippolyta and Diana, while Cale and Izzy are mixed and Clea and Ptra are completely negative. I think Etta and the Holliday Girls serve a similar function to the Amazons as a whole.

    My original point boils down to disagreeing that they are any less static than Steve and Etta and that they are inherently better for an ongoing narrative. For me, they are ALL roughly on equal footing as bringing something to the table but needing a lot of work and consistent usage. And suited for different stories, swapping in and out as the need arises but united as being the core group along with the Wonder Girls, Ferdinand and maybe whoever Steve's current boss is

  10. #25
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    I want Ferdinand back.

    Underrated character.
    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  11. #26
    Mighty Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    Etta, Trevor Barnes (and little Bobby), Ferdinand, Julia & Vanessa. Ed Indelicato. That's it. That's my dream cast.

  12. #27
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    I want Ferdinand back.

    Underrated character.
    I agree, with you. My vote is for the Rebirth cast (Etta, Steve, Siegfried, Dr. Julia, as every/ev. other issue regulars), with recurring appearances (ev. other issue or less), by Queen Nubia, the Amazons, Artemis, Donna Troy, the Greek gods and Ferdinand.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 06-01-2022 at 07:58 PM.
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  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    That is a great selling point for why the Kapatelis women are important and why they should be used. They are a more positive parallel to Hippolyta and Diana, while Cale and Izzy are mixed and Clea and Ptra are completely negative. I think Etta and the Holliday Girls serve a similar function to the Amazons as a whole.

    My original point boils down to disagreeing that they are any less static than Steve and Etta and that they are inherently better for an ongoing narrative. For me, they are ALL roughly on equal footing as bringing something to the table but needing a lot of work and consistent usage. And suited for different stories, swapping in and out as the need arises but united as being the core group along with the Wonder Girls, Ferdinand and maybe whoever Steve's current boss is
    Where can you go with Steve and Etta? What's the quality of story arcs you can do with them?

    Julia as an archaeologist already has one foot into the door of WW's world. It's arguably easier for an archaeologist to be involved in WW's story than for a secret agent. Julia's arc went from being an ordinary archaeologist to meeting an Amazon, forced to level up to deal with Diana's world, becoming like a second mother to Diana, growing resentful with her over what happened with Vanessa but later reconciling. Likewise, Vanessa is an awkward teenager with body image issues and dealing with the death of her friends who is briefly manipulated into a super villain and has a unique relationship with Wonder Woman.

    Compare that to Steve and Etta. What's the most interesting thing done with them? Is the best we are going to get with him is him being the 'perfect boyfriend' or a 'will they won't they' with Diana? Is Etta just going to be the cheerful side kick and positive representation of a fat character? What's the most interesting story or interaction she's had with Diana? What's the most interesting arc done with them?

    Dynamic characters and static characters is a description. Neither is inherently bad. The Trinity are all inherently static characters they can't change, so are most of Superman and Batman's cast. Lois and Jimmy are static characters. Lois's thing is that she will chase the truth to no matter what and has inspired generations of women. Jimmy is just a normal cub photographer who is thrown into these bizarre situations when he is not being the bizarre one himself. They're interesting characters on their own. Steve and Etta are rarely interesting on their own. That's the problem. I've talked about this before but I'm not a fan of the 'Superman or Batman has it so WW should too' mentality, it can be detriment to Diana's own character. If Steve and Etta are going to be THE WW supporting cast they need to have a little bit more going for them.

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  14. #29
    Mighty Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Where can you go with Steve and Etta? What's the quality of story arcs you can do with them?
    I think you can go absolutely anywhere with them.

    Steve could quit being a secret agent and decide to become…I don’t know…an archaeologist, if you think that’s exciting. Etta could be manipulated into being a villain just as easily as Vanessa was.

    I don’t believe any fictional character has to remain static in an on-going narrative.

    Moreover, I don’t even care if Etta and Steve are static, I want a sexy blonde boyfriend and a ride-or-die gal pal in my Wonderverse. Ha ha!
    Last edited by Largo161; 06-02-2022 at 12:15 PM.
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  15. #30
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Where can you go with Steve and Etta? What's the quality of story arcs you can do with them?

    Julia as an archaeologist already has one foot into the door of WW's world. It's arguably easier for an archaeologist to be involved in WW's story than for a secret agent. Julia's arc went from being an ordinary archaeologist to meeting an Amazon, forced to level up to deal with Diana's world, becoming like a second mother to Diana, growing resentful with her over what happened with Vanessa but later reconciling. Likewise, Vanessa is an awkward teenager with body image issues and dealing with the death of her friends who is briefly manipulated into a super villain and has a unique relationship with Wonder Woman.

    Compare that to Steve and Etta. What's the most interesting thing done with them? Is the best we are going to get with him is him being the 'perfect boyfriend' or a 'will they won't they' with Diana? Is Etta just going to be the cheerful side kick and positive representation of a fat character? What's the most interesting story or interaction she's had with Diana? What's the most interesting arc done with them?

    Dynamic characters and static characters is a description. Neither is inherently bad. The Trinity are all inherently static characters they can't change, so are most of Superman and Batman's cast. Lois and Jimmy are static characters. Lois's thing is that she will chase the truth to no matter what and has inspired generations of women. Jimmy is just a normal cub photographer who is thrown into these bizarre situations when he is not being the bizarre one himself. They're interesting characters on their own. Steve and Etta are rarely interesting on their own. That's the problem. I've talked about this before but I'm not a fan of the 'Superman or Batman has it so WW should too' mentality, it can be detriment to Diana's own character. If Steve and Etta are going to be THE WW supporting cast they need to have a little bit more going for them.
    Like Largo said, anything can be done with them. Perez created a Steve who was pretty much done as a character, he was a grown man who joined the military as a hot head then matured as he got a front row seat of how devastating war can be. Why didn't he start Steve out as young so we could actually see that growth process? Have him and Diana get into philosophical debates on war and peace, it would give them a relationship that challenges them both intellectually. Writers could toy with them switching positions on which one is the hawk and which one is the dove depending on the story. Or tackle themes of toxic masculinity and contradictions in Steve's psyche. He joined the military because he thought guns were macho, what lessons does he learn from interacting with Diana and the Amazons, and how does it mesh with being inspired by his mother?

    Etta should be a mix of Lois and Jimmy. Lois is an inspiration to women, but she's also conventionally gorgeous. Etta is a different type of beautiful that can be inspiring in a different way, and she's a weirdness magnet like Jimmy. Etta was able to carry at least one Golden Age story on her own, and she was considered a highlight in LoWW where she had her own life and dynamics at Holliday College, including a rivalry with a resident Alpha Bitch. She is the same age as Diana, so she's filling a role as a true peer that neither Julia or Vanessa can really fill. She's a young independent woman who is navigating Man's World on her own for the first time. She's lived here all her life while Diana is a stranger. How do their experiences differ, and what similarities are there? And the Holliday Girls are pseudo Amazons. How does Diana react to their community of women, who come together to support each other within man's world and without the magical safe space the Amazons have where man's influence and abuse can't touch them? College campuses are not safe for young women after all.

    The arcs you mentioned for Julia and Vanessa were great. But they are also all said and done. In the old continuity, Julia reconciled with Diana and Vanessa was cured, and being dragged back into further adventures wouldn't be good for her. They were great characters, but they reached a natural end point. Bringing them back in Rebirth had proved to be a disaster. What can be said about them that hasn't been said already?
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 06-02-2022 at 01:48 PM.

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