Best Supporting Cast For Wonder Woman?

[Agent Z]

Like Largo said, anything can be done with them. Perez created a Steve who was pretty much done as a character, he was a grown man who joined the military as a hot head then matured as he got a front row seat of how devastating war can be. Why didn't he start Steve out as young so we could actually see that growth process? Have him and Diana get into philosophical debates on war and peace, it would give them a relationship that challenges them both intellectually. Writers could toy with them switching positions on which one is the hawk and which one is the dove depending on the story. Or tackle themes of toxic masculinity and contradictions in Steve's psyche. He joined the military because he thought guns were macho, what lessons does he learn from interacting with Diana and the Amazons, and how does it mesh with being inspired by his mother?

Etta should be a mix of Lois and Jimmy. Lois is an inspiration to women, but she's also conventionally gorgeous. Etta is a different type of beautiful that can be inspiring in a different way, and she's a weirdness magnet like Jimmy. Etta was able to carry at least one Golden Age story on her own, and she was considered a highlight in LoWW where she had her own life and dynamics at Holliday College, including a rivalry with a resident Alpha Bitch. She is the same age as Diana, so she's filling a role as a true peer that neither Julia or Vanessa can really fill. She's a young independent woman who is navigating Man's World on her own for the first time. She's lived here all her life while Diana is a stranger. How do their experiences differ, and what similarities are there? And the Holliday Girls are pseudo Amazons. How does Diana react to their community of women, who come together to support each other within man's world and without the magical safe space the Amazons have where man's influence and abuse can't touch them? College campuses are not safe for young women after all.

The arcs you mentioned for Julia and Vanessa were great. But they are also all said and done. In the old continuity, Julia reconciled with Diana and Vanessa was cured, and being dragged back into further adventures wouldn't be good for her. They were great characters, but they reached a natural end point. Bringing them back in Rebirth had proved to be a disaster. What can be said about them that hasn't been said already?

Whatever arc Perez envisioned for Steve would have also reached an endpoint. Just about any longrunning character from the Big 2 has this issue, which is why we get so many repeated plots.

[John Venus]

Like Largo said, anything can be done with them. Perez created a Steve who was pretty much done as a character, he was a grown man who joined the military as a hot head then matured as he got a front row seat of how devastating war can be. Why didn't he start Steve out as young so we could actually see that growth process?

Most likely because he didn't want Diana to leave the island for a man.

Although WW17 movie did it as best as it could have been done, I've encountered casual audience members who complain about her leaving it all behind 'for some dick'. WW84 didn't help matters.

Perez version leaves zero room for doubt that Diana left her island out of a sense of duty, kindness and curiosity.

Have him and Diana get into philosophical debates on war and peace, it would give them a relationship that challenges them both intellectually. Writers could toy with them switching positions on which one is the hawk and which one is the dove depending on the story.

Interesting but could easily turn into disaster unless handled by someone like Rucka who understands nuance. We already have enough of Diana being blood thirsty aggressive Amazon just to make male characters seem more virtuous.

Or tackle themes of toxic masculinity and contradictions in Steve's psyche. He joined the military because he thought guns were macho, what lessons does he learn from interacting with Diana and the Amazons, and how does it mesh with being inspired by his mother?

I would like to see this explored also.

Etta should be a mix of Lois and Jimmy. Lois is an inspiration to women, but she's also conventionally gorgeous. Etta is a different type of beautiful that can be inspiring in a different way, and she's a weirdness magnet like Jimmy. Etta was able to carry at least one Golden Age story on her own, and she was considered a highlight in LoWW where she had her own life and dynamics at Holliday College, including a rivalry with a resident Alpha Bitch. She is the same age as Diana, so she's filling a role as a true peer that neither Julia or Vanessa can really fill. She's a young independent woman who is navigating Man's World on her own for the first time. She's lived here all her life while Diana is a stranger. How do their experiences differ, and what similarities are there? And the Holliday Girls are pseudo Amazons. How does Diana react to their community of women, who come together to support each other within man's world and without the magical safe space the Amazons have where man's influence and abuse can't touch them? College campuses are not safe for young women after all.

Etta should not or does not equal to Jimmy or Lois.

Interesting that you bring up Lois being conventionally attractive when writers have depicted her as being jealous of Wonder Woman and Zatanna for being 'perfect' while she isn't.

And while I would like to see Etta explored more, we haven't seen her go through a strong personal arc like Julia and Vanessa. Yes, there are strong possibilities but that's a lot of potential that's rarely realized.

The arcs you mentioned for Julia and Vanessa were great. But they are also all said and done. In the old continuity, Julia reconciled with Diana and Vanessa was cured, and being dragged back into further adventures wouldn't be good for her. They were great characters, but they reached a natural end point. Bringing them back in Rebirth had proved to be a disaster. What can be said about them that hasn't been said already?

The point is they had a strong story arc. And just because the major one ended doesn't mean we couldn't have had more. I would have liked to see Vanessa go off on a more heroic or anti heroic path rather than just becoming a villain again. Julia could have not disappeared into limbo, continued to be Diana's friends, show her reaction to all the crazy fantastical characters and events in Wonder Woman's world through the eyes of an archaeologist.

[John Venus]

I think you can go absolutely anywhere with them.

Steve could quit being a secret agent and decide to become…I don’t know…an archaeologist, if you think that’s exciting. Etta could be manipulated into being a villain just as easily as Vanessa was.

I don’t believe any fictional character has to remain static in an on-going narrative.

Moreover, I don’t even care if Etta and Steve are static, I want a sexy blonde boyfriend and a ride-or-die gal pal in my Wonderverse. Ha ha!

I don't think turning Steve and Etta more like Julia and Vanessa helps your case.

[Largo161]

I don't think turning Steve and Etta more like Julia and Vanessa helps your case.

LOL...those were not serious suggestions. I called myself being tongue-in-cheek because of your stated admiration for those plots.

[SiegePerilous02]

Most likely because he didn't want Diana to leave the island for a man.

Although WW17 movie did it as best as it could have been done, I've encountered casual audience members who complain about her leaving it all behind 'for some dick'. WW84 didn't help matters.

Perez version leaves zero room for doubt that Diana left her island out of a sense of duty, kindness and curiosity.

The people who think she left the island for a man in the movie are entitled to their opinion. But I thought both the movie and Year One made it pretty clear Diana had wanderlust even before Steve crashed and her main goal was stopping Ares out of a sense of duty. If they are being true to the classic origin and Steve crashes on the island, and the goal is still to have him as a love interest, there aren't many other ways for it to play out, especially in the limited runtime of a film. I think the people who like Steve's role in the origin and as a love interest are mostly satisfied with takes like the film (at least the first one) and Year One, because NOBODY likes Diana falling in love with Steve while he's unconscious and having that be her main motivation. Everyone else is probably fundamentally against the romance starting there no matter what, so it doesn't really matter how it's executed for them, they will dislike it.

The problem with Perez's take is that it would have been better with Steve removed entirely. He is completely superfluous to the narrative in that run. Issue #1 has the Amazons learn of Ares's plot, and the Contest happens and Diana is already in the process of leaving before she has to go back to the island in time for Steve crashing. It's almost as if they plotted the first issue entirely around Steve being excised, then decided at the last minute that he still had to be involved in some capacity. Issue #2 feels like filler for that reason. Even if Steve had been twice her age and off the table as a love interest and functioned just as a friend in the film, the pacing would be much less awkward if his crash is what signals the Amazons that Ares is on the move, and the Contest takes place after.

Interesting but could easily turn into disaster unless handled by someone like Rucka who understands nuance..

True, but that's a given. Any nuanced idea should of course not just be handed to any random author.

Etta should not or does not equal to Jimmy or Lois.

Nobody is saying she should be the exact equivalent to them.

If you don't think she should be compared to them in any capacity, what exactly do you think she should be?

Interesting that you bring up Lois being conventionally attractive when writers have depicted her as being jealous of Wonder Woman and Zatanna for being 'perfect' while she isn't.

That's just the writers, and let's be real here: as far as the artists go, Lois is frequently drawn to be as gorgeous as Diana and Zatanna. Any insecurity she feels is relateable, but just lip service because everyone in superhero comics looks like a runway model. If they don't, it's usually a plot point, like Ben Grimm.

Not when she's played in live action by the likes of 90s Teri "They're real and they're spectacular" Hatcher. Etta's body type is much more of a rarity in superhero comics than Lois's. Depicting her as beautiful in her own way, desirable by other characters and brave and confident may be the bare bones of her character, but it's just as important to feature in an otherwise sea of statuesque stunning women in this IP as Julia being a post-menopausal woman.

And while I would like to see Etta explored more, we haven't seen her go through a strong personal arc like Julia and Vanessa. Yes, there are strong possibilities but that's a lot of potential that's rarely realized.

The point is they had a strong story arc. And just because the major one ended doesn't mean we couldn't have had more. I would have liked to see Vanessa go off on a more heroic or anti heroic path rather than just becoming a villain again. Julia could have not disappeared into limbo, continued to be Diana's friends, show her reaction to all the crazy fantastical characters and events in Wonder Woman's world through the eyes of an archaeologist.

But we're still dealing with hypotheticals here. Yeah the Kapatelis women had an arc, but the fact is that Vanessa's original arc got wrapped up almost two decades ago now. Before that, they had been "Put on a Bus" for a little bit after getting swapped out for the Sandsmarks. It's only Vanessa's status as one of the Silver Swans that's keeping her around, and DC has (foolishly) proven they don't think Julia being alive is a requirement for that. No recent writers have seemed to express any desire to use them in their original capacity, even Gail Simone just gave them a cameo in her final issue to act as an epilogue for Vanessa being the swan.

So expressing a desire to see more of the Kapatelis women and spitballing ideas of what more can be done with them isn't that different from other fans doing the same with Steve and Etta. Until it actually makes it onto the page, it's all "What if?"

[OBrianTallent]

I feel like there's plenty of room for more than just Steve and Etta in Wonder Woman's mythos, especially if they are going to run with Steve being part of a secret ops organization (which really works quite well for him in modern culture.) I liked Steve being a part of ARGUS and it's Black Room, using him as a lead on a special ops team seeking out mystical artifacts and storing them. Diana becomes less a girlfriend on his arm and an active participant fulfilling a role more closely to her original role in the relationship...helping to keep him out of trouble.
I would include Etta as part of his specific setting...an assistant, second in command whatever that might be, but it's a role her character has always filled out well. Likewise, Helena Sandsmark could be used as a specialist on retainer (I would actually have gone with Julia Kapetelis but is she or isn't she dead in current continuity?). Sigfried acts as the fish out of water character, the newbie that people can relate to/root for. Have him employed by ARGUS or Checkmate or whatever secret ops group it is these days. He acts as the readers proxy, a foil for Steve and a triangle (or even quadrangle) for the Steve/Diana dynamic.
Others I would bring in on a semi regular basis would be Ferdinand first and foremost. He's just an awesome character. I would also bring in Hessia, the amazon from the Charles Soule Superman/Wonder Woman series. I liked the idea of another Amazon hiding out on the world and teaching self defense. Bring in Donna and Cassie on a semi-regular basis, even if it's just to have lunch and maintain part of that world.
As for Julia vs Helena...is Julia even alive currently? I actually despise that storyline and plot device. Julia being alive and having her daughter be the Silver Swan could bring so much more story potential than her having died, even at her daughter's hand. (To be honest, I never liked the idea of Vanessa being a villain anyway, but understand the story potential it can bring.) If Julia is not available, then Helena can certainly fill the bill for a specialist.
There's room for Diana to have as full and rounded cast as Batman. She just needs writers capable of writing different and layered characters and stories. Something I believe that Cloonrad are capable of doing from what I have seen over the last year.

[Psy-lock]

It's insane how much of a mess WW's supporting cast became after the Golden Age, especially in the Post-Crisis when it kept changing from one writer to another. And now almost 70 years later we finally have some stability

Now that I think about it, it's weird that none of the Post-Crisis writers thought of creating a Steve Trevor Jr. (who could've been a younger relative of Old Man Steve) instead of all those useless Not Steves who disappeared as soon as the next writer took other.

[Alpha]

The reason why Etta Candy (and the Holliday Girls) are the best supporting characters for Diana should be obvious if you read the Amy Reeder short story in Black& Gold and the 80 anniversary special. They bring an incredible amount of chaotic energy to Dianas adventures. They are an organized force of chaos that actively seek challenges.

They highlight Diana's exciting personality.

And is someone here trying to say that Etta Candy has less value because she hasn't had a personal arc? Do you genuinely think it's hard to give her stories do wrestle with? Heck, what are Diana's personal arcs? She's usually a very stationary character. Plot is what drives most of her stories.

Anybody arguing that Etta should be a secretary totally misses the point of the character. She isn't an administrative person, she is a ball of furious energy.

Diana is enthusiastic while Etta is furiously impulsive. That's the easily marketeable dynamic, whereas Julia and Vanessa often turned the book into a soap drama (which does have it's place, but shouldn't be the driving force for Diana).

And the Holliday Girls are there as a collection of the new type of woman Diana is inspiring. Each one of them able to have their own issues, insecurities and stories to overcome by meeting Diana. Heck, Vanessa could have easily been one of those Holliday Girls.

[SiegePerilous02]

There's room for Diana to have as full and rounded cast as Batman. She just needs writers capable of writing different and layered characters and stories.

Yep. This is why I'm against simplifying it down to "Steve and Etta or the Kapatelis women" as the main group, when it should be all four of them, plus a few others like Donna, Ferdinand, Myndi and Darnell/Michaelis/Sasha/whoever.

Fans may say we don't want the Superman and Batman comparisons, but that seems at odds with the YEARS of WW fans clamoring for a stable supporting cast and fleshed out rogue gallery like those two (or Spider-Man or even the Flash) have.

They highlight Diana's exciting personality.

They do seem to bring that out of her, while the Perez era focused on her wide-eyed naiveté when she interacted with that cast. Which absolutely has a place in her early years at least (and was really effective with stuff like Myndi's death), but sometimes you need a break from that.

Diana is enthusiastic while Etta is furiously impulsive. That's the easily marketeable dynamic, whereas Julia and Vanessa often turned the book into a soap drama (which does have it's place, but shouldn't be the driving force for Diana).

The writing of the 80s is past us, for better or (often times) worst. Julia and Vanessa thrived in a period where comics had more packed into them, and creators would stay on books for more than 10 issues so serialized storylines can actually play out. Karen Berger being the editor certainly helped elevate WW over similar books. But these days, everything is event driven, decompressed and/or designed to be a stand alone evergreen seller instead of a sprawling soap opera narrative. Julia and Vanessa can still be used, but they'd probably have to be adjusted, and Steve and Etta can slide more easily into those things.

And the Holliday Girls are there as a collection of the new type of woman Diana is inspiring. Each one of them able to have their own issues, insecurities and stories to overcome by meeting Diana. Heck, Vanessa could have easily been one of those Holliday Girls.

Julia being a teacher at Holliday College always seemed like a no brainer to me. It puts her and Etta in the same place, because Etta should be in college when Diana first meets her.

Vanessa and Eileen would later become Holliday Girls so that group can still pop up even after Etta has graduated. And I always thought that Vanessa and Donna should be peers. Seeing Donna try to mesh with Vanessa's school group (Eileen, Lucy, Barry, etc) could produce interesting results.

[Agent Z]

The reason why Etta Candy (and the Holliday Girls) are the best supporting characters for Diana should be obvious if you read the Amy Reeder short story in Black& Gold and the 80 anniversary special. They bring an incredible amount of chaotic energy to Dianas adventures. They are an organized force of chaos that actively seek challenges.

That makes them good for a certain type of story. I don't think it necessarily make them the best.

And is someone here trying to say that Etta Candy has less value because she hasn't had a personal arc? Do you genuinely think it's hard to give her stories do wrestle with?

Such as?

Heck, what are Diana's personal arcs?

Exploration of a new world. Reconciling her original beliefs with new complexities. Acknowledging that she isn't always right.

Anybody arguing that Etta should be a secretary totally misses the point of the character. She isn't an administrative person, she is a ball of furious energy.

A character needs to be more than such a one note description.

Diana is enthusiastic while Etta is furiously impulsive. That's the easily marketeable dynamic, whereas Julia and Vanessa often turned the book into a soap drama (which does have it's place, but shouldn't be the driving force for Diana).

And yet, we've had more soap opera writing ever since the Kapatelis left, not less. And it isn't like we weren't getting plenty of that before Perez.

And the Holliday Girls are there as a collection of the new type of woman Diana is inspiring. Each one of them able to have their own issues, insecurities and stories to overcome by meeting Diana. Heck, Vanessa could have easily been one of those Holliday Girls.

You know, for all the talk about how great the Holliday Girls are, I think it's telling that almost every time they're brought up, no one even mentions their individual names or distinct personalities. People often accuse the Amazons of being one note characters with no discernable traits, but I find this applies far more to the Holliday Girls. I can at least name some Amazons and point out what is unique about them.

[SiegePerilous02]

You know, for all the talk about how great the Holliday Girls are, I think it's telling that every time they're brought up, no one even mentions their individual names. People often accuse the Amazons of being one note characters with no discernable character, but I find this applies far more to the Holliday Girls.

Eve Brown, Gel Ossey, the Heyday Sisters, Roberta Strong, Virginia True, Patsy Peters, Faith Alden, etc. I rattled all these off from memory. They leave just as much of an impression as all the background Amazon names thrown out in the Perez run, several of which we saw seized upon and fleshed out with Historia.

Yeah they are not fleshed out at all, but that's why people want to see them more. They like the group for what it represents and see potential in it. What's wrong with that? I don't know why we have to make it into "you either get the Amazons or the Holliday Girls" situation (like Steve/Etta vs. the Kapatelis) when we can have both. The two groups represent some similar things, but the differences can be highlighted in interesting ways.

[Agent Z]

Eve Brown, Gel Ossey, the Heyday Sisters, Roberta Strong, Virginia True, Patsy Peters, Faith Alden, etc. I rattled all these off from memory. They leave just as much of an impression as all the background Amazon names thrown out in the Perez run, several of which we saw seized upon and fleshed out with Historia.

Yeah they are not fleshed out at all, but that's why people want to see them more. They like the group for what it represents and see potential in it. What's wrong with that? I don't know why we have to make it into "you either get the Amazons or the Holliday Girls" situation (like Steve/Etta vs. the Kapatelis) when we can have both. The two groups represent some similar things, but the differences can be highlighted in interesting ways.

I actually do agree that both can be used. Hell, I've stated before I'm not against Steve and Etta. Frankly, it seems like the biggest proponent for a binary choice in this thread is Alpha.

[Psy-lock]

Julia should definitely return as a major supporting character. Give some love to Perez's characters, DC! Actually, that’s one thing that disappoints me about the current run. Psycho is the main villain, and yet there's no mention of Vanessa. Does Diana even know he was responsible for her transformation (and possibly Julia's death)?

[Alpha]

I actually do agree that both can be used. Hell, I've stated before I'm not against Steve and Etta. Frankly, it seems like the biggest proponent for a binary choice in this thread is Alpha.

There's actually something I would love to do with Vanessa that I think would be pretty awesome and would bring a closure to her suffering and rivalry with Cassie, and creating a path forward for the two of them in a really fantastical way.

As far as Julia, I would just put her in my pitch for Holliday College as an alternative society. I would make Julia part of the administration, along with Helena Sandsmark, and an original character I made up.

[Mel Dyer]

The reason why Etta Candy (and the Holliday Girls) are the best supporting characters for Diana should be obvious if you read the Amy Reeder short story in Black& Gold and the 80 anniversary special. They bring an incredible amount of chaotic energy to Dianas adventures. They are an organized force of chaos that actively seek challenges.

They highlight Diana's exciting personality.

And is someone here trying to say that Etta Candy has less value because she hasn't had a personal arc? Do you genuinely think it's hard to give her stories do wrestle with? Heck, what are Diana's personal arcs? She's usually a very stationary character. Plot is what drives most of her stories.

Anybody arguing that Etta should be a secretary totally misses the point of the character. She isn't an administrative person, she is a ball of furious energy.

Diana is enthusiastic while Etta is furiously impulsive. That's the easily marketeable dynamic, whereas Julia and Vanessa often turned the book into a soap drama (which does have it's place, but shouldn't be the driving force for Diana).

And the Holliday Girls are there as a collection of the new type of woman Diana is inspiring. Each one of them able to have their own issues, insecurities and stories to overcome by meeting Diana. Heck, Vanessa could have easily been one of those Holliday Girls.

I'm just going to be a lazy bastid and agree, with everything you're saying and could not say it, better than you already have! If Holliday College isn't going to be Diana's Daily Planet, I would like to see a 'Holliday City' or 'Marston City', created around it, ..where Diana, Etta, Desira and the Holliday Girls could establish a colorful, entertaining home-base, from which to launch WW's adventures.

And Siege...we've had similar conversations about Etta's role, in the narrative. Since World War II, the creative teams have kept jamming Steve Trevor into the role of Wonder Woman's partner, and, as I see it, he's never worked, because Marston created Etta for that. Steve's role, comparatively speaking, is different.