Dark Crisis #1 Discussion/Spoilers

[dornwolf]

To be fair, all things aren't equal.

Jon got to start with a shiny #1, his book got a lot of media promotion, and he has a big name writer on the book. Wally's run started with issue #768, a lot of people didn't even know he took over the book, and Adams had only written like two or so comic issues prior to being on the book.

I think Jon getting to start with a #1 and Taylor as the writer makes a significance difference.

Jon’s book still gets more promotion than others right now. They keep trying to keep Jon in the news cycle as promotion goes, he’s bi, has a pride flag cape that his boyfriend gave him or whatever, he’s protesting…something.

[MajorHoy]

This forum has the worst demographics.

Recent poll indicated the satellite league was the best jl

You'd have to be in your 50s to have even followed that League...

I was born in 85. I'm 37 years old. I'm an old dog and books prior to the 80s aren't filling my reading list.

Average comic readers are not represented on this forum. Not active members.

Old people hang out on forums

Young folk have shit we never even heard of.

Think Facebook is cutting edge? Nope also for old people.

Exactly how to poll the real demographics are likely hard and something dc would know most of based on sales...

I mean Superboy 90s just won that run. And last year it was robins. So that indicates something more relevant...

Or do you believe polls on this forum have real statistical value?

I think there is a good group of smart members here but active members are older with older tastes.

This is a consistent impression I've had of the active members of this forum.

I only brought up those polls because somebody made the comment

A Kyle-led main GL title set on Earth would outsell the last 4-5 years of GL books easily.

and I seriously question how accurate that statement would be.

[j9ac9k]

and I seriously question how accurate that statement would be.

Of course you would - it's a comment that has no basis in fact. Aside from Batman and maybe Superman there's no character who's a guaranteed big seller. All other characters need a creative team that believes in the character and has a good story to tell with them. And when said character is put in a book and fails, then the standard deflection is that "they were handled poorly." But that's what makes us fans - we believe in the best version of the characters we love and want badly to see that version realized.

[Robotman]

It bugs me that Willaimson is trying to connect his version of the Great Darkness to other (much better written) stories. Saying that every event and Crisis was because of the disembodied Great Darkness.

I really wish DC would have rereleased and promoted the hell out of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing story "American Gothic", which is the first appearance of the Great Darkness. A story that had a great ending and in no way needed someone to come along and tack on a fairly basic event book to it.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

This was...fine.

Not bad, necessarily, but not exactly something that got me particularly excited about the story being told.

Did not care for Jace being an asshole. Jon's father just "died" and that's how you talk to the kid? Way to alienate every conceivable reader to your new character. Why has "asshole" become the default personality for any Batman?

Pariah is still the whiney Krona-knockoff he's always been. He's not exactly a character who makes for much of a compelling threat, unfortunately.

Jon is understandably being played as an inexperienced rookie trying to fill shoes he's utterly unprepared for, but this has also made him look kind of dumb. Again, not exactly a great way to ingratiate new readers to the character.

I don't know. I'm glad some readers are excited by this, but it just feels too undercooked for my tastes. It appears to be the only place to read Hal Jordan at the moment, so I'll probably stick around to see what they do with him, but, otherwise, I'm a bit disappointed by the whole event thus far.

[Digifiend]

Killer Frost needs a new costume/look.

Yeah. I think they should give her longer hair, as the version most people will know is the Arrowverse one (and this IS Caitlin Snow).

I do think asking Dr Light her age was weird. Like she’s not a teen, so where did that even come from ? Unless his point is he’s immortal so even her is so much younger him, but then again that would apply to most of the members of the previous league as well.

Yeah, Dr Light isn't just her superhero name, she actually has a PHD. And she's a mother. Got to be late 20s at least.

Wonder Woman died/ascended or some such so we could get Nubia as Wonder Woman.

Nubia replaced Hippolyta as the Queen. Hippolyta was Wonder Woman's substitute, taking her spot in the Justice League.

Forgot which book or from a preview, but Cybeast is Raven illusion

Wrong. Cyborg and Changeling being separate entities was the illusion.

I assume Kimiyo is probably close in age to Booster and Ted. I guess this version of Frost is probably young.

She is. She's the third Killer Frost, I think the previous ones are dead, and one of them was posthumously involved in Caitlin Snow's origin.

That's the only thing I can think of. But how can he even transform without Professor Stein?

Maybe he found a new partner? One of the other ex-Firestorms maybe?

Maybe he read something about her in the future...

Yeah, it is possible Jon heard about Yara from the Legion. We know he looked up Clark's destiny.

Exactly my thoughts. Let's look at who could step up if the JLA is "dead" or otherwise out of the picture:

Nightwing, Wally, Kyle, Cyborg, J'onn, Jason Todd, Conner Kent, Donna, Steel, Captain Marvel, members of the JSA. How many decades of experience are there between these people? The same goes for Ted and Booster. If "everything happened," then their character progression from "second stringers" to capable heroes has also happened. They're the most logical inclusions on the "new" JLA.

Not Captain Marvel. Billy's out of the picture as of the end of Teen Titans Academy. Mary was supposed to be on the team, but the delay of the mini in which she becomes the new Champion and thus gets her powers back, means that she was replaced by Supergirl (the art was redrawn) due to currently being depowered.

You say that with such confidence but the info available say you are wrong.

We had a Kyle led Titans book with Donna and Wally and that didn't have great numbers. The Titans don't move comics like some fans of the oldies like to claim.

No we didn't. It was Donna leading, and Wally wasn't there at all, the roster was Beast Boy, Raven, Steel (Natasha Irons), Donna Troy, Miss Martian, and Green Lantern, who replaced Nightwing after he was shot and lost his memory.

But we didn't. Kyle joined the Titans, and the series was cancelled only 3 issues in, so he spent only 6 issues in total as part of the team. And the series had been butchered long before that.

Honestly, they shouldn't have kept Dick there after the roster changed, they should've known Batman was about to force his removal. If they'd used Kyle from the start instead it might have been more coherent.

[InfamousBG]

This forum has the worst demographics.

Recent poll indicated the satellite league was the best jl

You'd have to be in your 50s to have even followed that League...

I was born in 85. I'm 37 years old. I'm an old dog and books prior to the 80s aren't filling my reading list.

Average comic readers are not represented on this forum. Not active members.

Old people hang out on forums

Young folk have shit we never even heard of.

Think Facebook is cutting edge? Nope also for old people.

Exactly how to poll the real demographics are likely hard and something dc would know most of based on sales...

I mean Superboy 90s just won that run. And last year it was robins. So that indicates something more relevant...

Or do you believe polls on this forum have real statistical value?

I think there is a good group of smart members here but active members are older with older tastes.

This is a consistent impression I've had of the active members of this forum.

I wont get too far into your comments. You have been complaining here for awhile about how we are all old and are taste are different and all this and all that. Just like your opinion of the New 52. I am 40 years old and have collected since I was very young. I do not consider myself old or that my tastes are flawed because I have been reading and collecting for a long time. Active members are old and tastes are old?! Ok...

Books from the 80's are not filling your reading list?! I feel bad for you then. Sorry we did not all like the 52 like you and we are not all young as I guess your current views are.

Now back to Dark Crisis.

[Menacer]

I wont get too far into your comments. You have been complaining here for awhile about how we are all old and are taste are different and all this and all that. Just like your opinion of the New 52. I am 40 years old and have collected since I was very young. I do not consider myself old or that my tastes are flawed because I have been reading and collecting for a long time. Active members are old and tastes are old?! Ok...

Books from the 80's are not filling your reading list?! I feel bad for you then. Sorry we did not all like the 52 like you and we are not all young as I guess your current views are.

Now back to Dark Crisis.

We have new books coming out literally every week.

Bit discouraging when people are like meh. Not good. But hey this book that came out 40 years ago is the best thing ever.

I routinely collect there suggestions.

When I say old books aren't prominent on my reading list that means for every 100 books I read a year Maybe 10 are 70s or 80s books.

And those old books are fine. Good books. But people are drenched in nostalgia for these books and it hampers enjoyment of anything current. And they shit on the current stuff.

Free to do as they please but it's sad how negative people are to modern.

Ultimately nice to speak of older good books.

But I'm focused on present and modern DC. That's mostly what I collect

[Hatut Zeraze]

And those old books are fine. Good books. But people are drenched in nostalgia for these books and it hampers enjoyment of anything current. And they shit on the current stuff.

Free to do as they please but it's sad how negative people are to modern.

Ultimately nice to speak of older good books.

But I'm focused on present and modern DC. That's mostly what I collect

I'm with you on this. I like all my older books and have spent TONS of time on DC Universe Infinite reading enormous chunks of DC's comics from before I was a fan, but I like to keep a fresh eye on the new stuff and not force comparisons to the old every time something new comes out.

[skyvolt2000]

And those old books are fine. Good books. But people are drenched in nostalgia for these books and it hampers enjoyment of anything current. And they shit on the current stuff.

Free to do as they please but it's sad how negative people are to modern.

Ultimately nice to speak of older good books.

But I'm focused on present and modern DC. That's mostly what I collect

I think some of the issue is management had dumped on so many characters and in some cases said dumping forced the creations of others.

Lets take Steel for example-all we have is his 52 issue solo run.
Same to a point with Tim Drake.
Until Redjack's GL run-Gerard Jones's GL Mosaic was it for John Stewart.

How many characters have we seen in movies and tv that have NOTHING in comics like Bumblebee and her husband after 50 years.

I think the underlining frustration is half of these new folks would NOT be needed if you invested and supported who was already there.

I mean if I wanted say a black Robin-Kevin Hudman from Tim Drake's Robin could have filled that spot and maybe gotten more development for Tim.
A black Superboy?? The MIA for now 20 year Keith Roberts White (Perry White's son) or Jermal (Steel's Nephew) are right there.

So when we get something like this where a new JL is needed-there are enough alum there for Jon to make a team and even include his final choices. Make a Justice League Unlimited.

Where you could make even MORE stupid tie in books.

[InfamousBG]

We have new books coming out literally every week.

Bit discouraging when people are like meh. Not good. But hey this book that came out 40 years ago is the best thing ever.

I routinely collect there suggestions.

When I say old books aren't prominent on my reading list that means for every 100 books I read a year Maybe 10 are 70s or 80s books.

And those old books are fine. Good books. But people are drenched in nostalgia for these books and it hampers enjoyment of anything current. And they shit on the current stuff.

Free to do as they please but it's sad how negative people are to modern.

Ultimately nice to speak of older good books.

But I'm focused on present and modern DC. That's mostly what I collect

I currently read over 50 new books a month or more. I get where you are coming from. Not everyone around here is like that though an not everyone around my age believes that the old ways are the only way. Yes there is some amazing stuff coming out right now but there is also a ton of crap. Like Williamson's Dark Crisis. This is either going to be a big hit or a big miss. His Shadow War was kind of pointless. Don't get me wrong I liked some aspects of it but in the end it was just not that exciting. Same with his Batman, nothing great. Now Dark Crisis I am on board with and I hope DC hits a home run with this one. I always cheer for writers to succeed as well as the companies that employ them and put out the comics.

Yes there are haters everywhere. There are usually more haters out there (especially in this hobby) than there are people who just love comics for comics. It has changed over the years. Some good some bad. Like everything. If you are not able to talk to some people here and just get negativity then move on to another thread or just look past the post you do not like or agree with. I have been coming to this site since 1996 and I love it here over every other comic or pop culture site.

Dark Crisis is a big event for me. DC keeps doing these "Crisis" events saying it will change all when it never does. So I am hoping just a little that DC cleans up a few things with this event and we are mostly happy in the end. Again though not everyone will love it. Haters going to hate LOL.

[Refrax5]

We have new books coming out literally every week.

Bit discouraging when people are like meh. Not good. But hey this book that came out 40 years ago is the best thing ever.

I routinely collect there suggestions.

When I say old books aren't prominent on my reading list that means for every 100 books I read a year Maybe 10 are 70s or 80s books.

And those old books are fine. Good books. But people are drenched in nostalgia for these books and it hampers enjoyment of anything current. And they shit on the current stuff.

Free to do as they please but it's sad how negative people are to modern.

Ultimately nice to speak of older good books.

But I'm focused on present and modern DC. That's mostly what I collect

I mean, I'm 39 and I've always read a mix of new and old stuff. It feels odd that someone would have a love of these characters and their universe and not have any interest in or respect for its rich history and myriad of characters. I don't dislike the new characters at all, but I still want a place for the classics to thrive and be featured.

I will say I do think DC has had some lackluster writing lately. I've never disliked Williamson. In fact, I think he and I have a lot of similar tastes and I appreciate where he's coming from creatively, but this event feels very lackluster to me. I want to enjoy it, but I just feel a bit bored. I've felt that way with most of DC's output besides Flash lately. Flash is the only DC title I'm really excited about these days.

[Somecrazyaussie]

So, DC should placate the "you will not replace us" crowd?

Not at all. But DC needs to be inclusive of everybody and that includes those who fall into the "you will not replace us" crowd.

That's what I meant by it being a delicate balance to get right. You go too far in appealing to new readers, you risk alienating the readers you do have. On the other hand, trying to keep older readers happy means newer readers aren't being enticed into the fold (I personally don't buy into that as plenty of readers had no trouble finding characters to latch onto).

The problem isn't entirely lack of diversity. It's the format and price model of comics as a whole that's stopping new readers from coming aboard. Until the big two wake up to this fact they'll be performing to empty seats as no one wants to pay the price of entry for 5 minutes worth of entertainment.

Also, nobody thinks the original Justice League will be "thrown out" or gone for long - nobody. (and if you're talking about the Titans generation, they were languishing long before "Dark Crisis".)

Of course not. Anyone who has been at this for any length of time knows the words to this song verbatim. That's why any time something like this hits the shelves it gets nothing but a collective groan from me. But that's the name of the game. These things are cyclical after all.

But never underestimate the power of irrational fear with these things. Clickbait is proof enough of that. Most don't even read the articles, only the the headlines! Same with this. Thousands won't even read this story, but they'll see "Death of Justice League" and a bunch of characters wearing the familiar costumes of the OGs and parading around using their names and immediately launch into a blind rage.

In some ways it's silly, but in others it just goes to show how much the OGs mean to people. Even those who have not, will not, pick up a comic starring them.

As to the Titans? Yes, it's a travesty how far DC has allowed that franchise to fall into disrepair. During the 80s The New Teen Titans and The New Titans were DCs best selling title to the point it rivalled Uncanny X-men. That's why those two had that inter-company crossover. Then, when it was in ill-health, they did nothing to remedy the patient. They allowed it to expire without performing CPR and left it to rot. Each subsequent attempt at that feat of necromancy would make Frankenstein blush.

The Titans weren't helped by Didio being in the top job for nearly 20 years either.

[Somecrazyaussie]

major poc lbgtq success such as miles morales etc.

To be fair, Miles Morales introduction wasn't conventional. His success (apart from how he was written/developed as a character) is due to the fact he replaced an alternate Peter Parker. That allowed him a certain luxury. If they had of had him replace 616 pushback on him would have been immeasurable and would have lasted 12 months vs the 5 years of build up he had before he was ported over proper.

That's why more were receptive to him (although not without the usual controversy).

[Digifiend]

If Miles had debuted in 616 originally, he'd have probably ended up renamed (maybe to Kid Arachnid, the name they used on the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon), like Totally Awesome Hulk was (Amadeus's Hulk was slimmed down and renamed Brawn) when the original Hulk came back. He'd probably still be around, the Spider-Man line always has several books, but he probably wouldn't have taken off like he did (he'd probably be like Silk and Spider-Gwen, who get new minis every so often instead of maintaining an ongoing). They did actually consider renaming him just before Bendis left Marvel to take over Superman, but Into The Spider-Verse put paid to that, and Peter and Miles are now in the same situation as Barry and Wally, except that unlike The Flash, Spider-Man's publisher trusts them both to maintain a book!