Confusing Rachel Grey question

[Subliminal]

Nate Grey was created using DNA from Jean and Scott, but... he's not actually their son. It also means he's not genetically identical to Cable. He's genetically "related" but not identical... Stryfe is identical to Cable as he's literally a clone of Cable.

Agreed. Identical twins and clones might share the same genetic material, but each are unique due to external factors. Nate is not a counterpart to Nathan/Cable, he's more like a brother since his "parents" are different. The same can be said for Rachel from Earth-811. She might just have a unique mix of Phoenix and mutant parent DNA that wasn't replicated in any other universe/reality. That would make her different than other "Rachel's" in the omniverse who might have the same name, but at best are her fraternal twin "sisters".

[Panic]

Agreed. Identical twins and clones might share the same genetic material, but each are unique due to external factors. Nate is not a counterpart to Nathan/Cable, he's more like a brother since his "parents" are different. The same can be said for Rachel from Earth-811. She might just have a unique mix of Phoenix and mutant parent DNA that wasn't replicated in any other universe/reality. That would make her different than other "Rachel's" in the omniverse who might have the same name, but at best are her fraternal twin "sisters".

But I think the point others are making is that as the multiverse continues to split for every possibility, new 'unique' Rachels must be getting generated for every new choice, eg she decides to not join Excalibur - that version would be genetically the same as the 'unique' version as she branched from her and her world.

[Askani's Flame]

While I'm in the camp that any Rachel Grey Summers anywhere in the multiverse is a counterpart (Cable and Nate Grey for that matter as well), however, what drives me nuts about this is topic is we know Rachel Grey Summers, Nathan Summers, and Nate Grey all just happens to be genetically Grey/Summers but all three lack multiversal counterparts because of the whole "Unique" thing? No, I'm not buying it...

Cable has other counterparts and has shown to have several in his books. So there is that. Nate Grey is unique thus far in so much that no one else has shown us another Nate Grey who was created scientifically like he was. But there could be others out there, but currently not. And for you buying it, you can choose to not. All I have continued to say is that according to three different writers over 30 years, they have said that our Rachel Summers is a unique multiversal individual that has no analogs elsewhere. We can ask Tini and Chris Claremont to explain how it operate and what that means for the other Rachel's that we have seen in What If's and in previous pages of Howard's Excalibur. But right now, she has some uniqueness to her.

Besides, Uncanny X-Men #199 is absolute canon and despite what some Grey/Summers detractors like to spout as fact is nothing more than personal head-canon -- Phoenix/Jean Grey did not commit suicide after the Sh'ar duel of honor (as she had in the modern era). Instead, Jean married Scott Summers and had a single child, whom they named Rachel Summers and who inherited Jean's psychic powers -- Rachel may have been born with an affinity for the Phoenix Force via her Earth-811 mother -- but, Earth-811 Rachel did gain access to the Phoenix Force until she arrived on Earth-616 and touched her mother's Shi'ar Holoempathic Crystal. At this point who really cares? Rachel is still genetically a Grey/Summers whether she was born on Earth-616 or not.

What do you mean in terms of the bolded? What do detractors say? I mean yes, she was born from Jean, Scott, and the PF in her timeline. She has elements of the PF in her due to Jean being the host the entirety of her pregnancy. Those elements were locked away from her grasp but active in order to protect her mind and soul from Ahab's torture per Uncanny X-Men 140.5. The 616 PF hid in her during a subsequent trip to see why the timeline didn't change (after issue 142), and didn't reveal itself (aside to Kate Pryde) until she accepted what happened to 616 Jean and connected to the holoempathic crystal. None of that isn't canon...

[Micabe]

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What do you mean in terms of the bolded? What do detractors say?

What I mean is -- said detractors (No, not you) have a tendency to flip-flop on their opinions and storyline interpretation(s) when it comes to the Greys... Ex., She's Phoenix/Jean Grey when she's getting her butt kicked -- but, she's Jean Grey/Phoenix when it comes to the death of the D'bari star system. Similar opinions apply to Rachel as well -- She's Scott's daughter when it suits them and Logan's daughter based on one sole X-Men Annual.

I mean yes, she was born from Jean, Scott, and the PF in her timeline. She has elements of the PF in her due to Jean being the host the entirety of her pregnancy. Those elements were locked away from her grasp but active in order to protect her mind and soul from Ahab's torture per Uncanny X-Men 140.5.

My X-Men collection is quite complete, although, for some odd reason, I was never able to obtain much less read Uncanny X-Men 140.5 --

-- because I always wanted to know why Lucus and Kurt are on the cover if that's supposed to be Earth-811.

The 616 PF hid in her during a subsequent trip to see why the timeline didn't change (after issue 142), and didn't reveal itself (aside to Kate Pryde) until she accepted what happened to 616 Jean and connected to the holoempathic crystal. None of that isn't canon...

And, I disagree... If was printed its canon. But, Excalibur #52 was just poorly written as if Alan Davis never read an X-Title in his life -- especially the part where with Jean's help to break down Phoenix's defenses, Xavier projects Excalibur into Rachel's mind, where the Phoenix then proceeds to share with them its history: from birth to its encounter with Feron & Necrom, then, much later, Jean Grey; it's subsequent "death" (What, wait?!? who died again?), after which it first encountered Rachel, who had sent her mind back in time, and learned of her horrific future; how it sent a portion of itself back to the future with Rachel were, at the urging of Kate Pryde, used its power to send Rachel physically back in time (back to the Earth-616 as opposed to remaining in the Earth-811 timeline to prevent what Rachel set out to do in the first place) and suppress her memories. But, hey for the sake of argument, I think we can amicably agree to disagree at this point.

[Subliminal]

But I think the point others are making is that as the multiverse continues to split for every possibility, new 'unique' Rachels must be getting generated for every new choice, eg she decides to not join Excalibur - that version would be genetically the same as the 'unique' version as she branched from her and her world.

During HoM in the white hot room, when Rachel displayed her counterparts, it was just variations of herself at different times of her life. It wasn't explained, but as others here have theorized, Rachel's time powers might be a factor and/or her reality/time projection abilities. Maybe it isn't just Earth-811 Rachel that is trapped in a time/reality straitjacket that prevents direct alternate reality counterparts, it could be that ALL the other 'Rachel's' are unique too. It's not a zero-sum situation.

[Micabe]

During HoM in the white hot room, when Rachel displayed her counterparts, it was just variations of herself at different times of her life. It wasn't explained, but as others here have theorized, Rachel's time powers might be a factor and/or her reality/time projection abilities. Maybe it isn't just Earth-811 Rachel that is trapped in a time/reality straitjacket that prevents direct alternate reality counterparts, it could be that ALL the other 'Rachel's' are unique too. It's not a zero-sum situation.

Now, while I can work with this from a theoretical standpoint. I offer this for your critique (X-Men: Days of Future Present) and, ask you two questions...

1). Why did Franklin of Earth-811 travel back in time (with his future team and girlfriend Rachel Summers) -- only to end up on Earth-616 where an older version of Earth-811 Rachel Summers just happened to be with Ahab and Hounds hot on their heels?

2). Why did Ahab's harpoon work on Earth-616 Jean Grey when it was clearly keyed for Rachel Summers of Earth-811?

[nightw1ng]

I thought I read somewhere that Claremont's original plan for Rachel was that she was a child of Jean and the Phoenix Force. Basically, an immaculate conception, a literal child of the Phoenix; and that's what made her unique from other Rachels in the multiverse. One hint was in the Days of Future Present storyline, when present-day Cyclops was converted into a hound, he wasn't able to find Rachel, even though the hounds are supposed to be able sense their children. (Some people misinterpreted it as it implying Rachel was actually Logan's child instead.)

[Micabe]

I thought I read somewhere that was that she was a child of Jean and the Phoenix Force. Basically, an immaculate conception, a literal child of the Phoenix; and that's what made her unique from other Rachels in the multiverse.

While Claremont unequivocally said that Scott was not Rachel's (biological) father -- but, rather the daughter of Jean and the Phoenix Force -- Claremont's "original" plans for Rachel (See: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the X-Men podcast) never explicitly made the pages -- and, whatever doesn't make the pages counts for less than nothing.

One hint was in the Days of Future Present storyline, when present-day Cyclops was converted into a hound, he wasn't able to find Rachel, even though the hounds are supposed to be able sense their children. (Some people misinterpreted it as it implying Rachel was actually Logan's child instead.)

Yep, and that "one" hint died at the end of Uncanny X-Men: Days of Futures Present Annual #14 and was never referenced again to this very day

[Subliminal]

Now, while I can work with this from a theoretical standpoint. I offer this for your critique and, ask you two questions...

1). Why did Franklin of Earth-811 travel back in time (with his future team and girlfriend Rachel Summers) -- only to end up on Earth-616 where an older version of Earth-811 Rachel Summers just happened to be with Ahab and Hounds hot on their heels?
2). Why did Ahab's harpoon work on Earth-616 Jean Grey when it was clearly keyed for Rachel Summers of Earth-811?

I don't know the full history and extent of Franklin's powers, but if he had the same psychic connection Rachel has with Cable, they should be able to find each other no matter what time or reality they are in. As for Ahab's harpoons, they are keyed to specific DNA, but since Jean and Rachel are somewhat related, it hurt her too. Not sure Ahab's weapons are that specific to only work on mutants of a specific timeline or reality.

The cognitive dissonance is real though, so I try to just go with comic book logic and canon inconsistencies. Rachel is unique in the multiverse because of some Phoenix connection? Sure.

[Askani's Flame]

What I mean is -- said detractors (No, not you) have a tendency to flip-flop on their opinions and storyline interpretation(s) when it comes to the Greys... Ex., She's Phoenix/Jean Grey when she's getting her butt kicked -- but, she's Jean Grey/Phoenix when it comes to the death of the D'bari star system. Similar opinions apply to Rachel as well -- She's Scott's daughter when it suits them and Logan's daughter based on one sole X-Men Annual.

Oh I didn't take it as a personal thing, I just wanted to hear what they said. And yeah, it's annoying on all fronts, and doesn't help that writers and editors have flip-flopped on aspects of Jean and Rachel when it comes to the PF. Also she has NEVER been stated to be Logan's daughter. That was simply fanfic that made it to these boards, and then used on this site to bully Rachel fans back in the day and be dismissive of the character.

My X-Men collection is quite complete, although, for some odd reason, I was never able to obtain much less read Uncanny X-Men 140.5 --

-- because I always wanted to know why Lucus and Kurt are on the cover if that's supposed to be Earth-811.[/CENTER][/QUOTE]

Drexelhand shared these links in the 2021 Rachel thread.
https://www.cbr.com/xmen-days-of-fut...imeline-links/

And then for the full interview: https://www.ign.com/articles/marvel-...ew-impressions

Different Bishop lands in this era then the one we know (more of this multiversal stuff lol). Black Bess is kinda the Psylocke analog here, and it's revealed that Kurt survived the attack with Amanda's magic.

And, I disagree... If was printed its canon. But, Excalibur #52 was just poorly written as if Alan Davis never read an X-Title in his life -- especially the part where with Jean's help to break down Phoenix's defenses, Xavier projects Excalibur into Rachel's mind, where the Phoenix then proceeds to share with them its history: from birth to its encounter with Feron & Necrom, then, much later, Jean Grey; it's subsequent "death" (What, wait?!? who died again?), after which it first encountered Rachel, who had sent her mind back in time, and learned of her horrific future; how it sent a portion of itself back to the future with Rachel were, at the urging of Kate Pryde, used its power to send Rachel physically back in time (back to the Earth-616 as opposed to remaining in the Earth-811 timeline to prevent what Rachel set out to do in the first place) and suppress her memories. But, hey for the sake of argument, I think we can amicably agree to disagree at this point.

I don't think we disagree on this. You've just clarified and added more context to what I said. Rachel did not have access to the Phoenix Force until she astrally returned to 616, where the majority of the PF went back with her. I agree Excalibur 52 is messy as Davis was trying to keep going from where Claremont was headed with her, but his adding of Feron and Necrom to the backstory of the PF complicated everything. So no argument from me

Now, while I can work with this from a theoretical standpoint. I offer this for your critique (X-Men: Days of Future Present) and, ask you two questions...

1). Why did Franklin of Earth-811 travel back in time (with his future team and girlfriend Rachel Summers) -- only to end up on Earth-616 where an older version of Earth-811 Rachel Summers just happened to be with Ahab and Hounds hot on their heels?

Great question, for whatever reason he came to 616. It can be theorized that Rachel's presence in the this universe was a beacon to him when he used his abilities as the Sentinel was killing him.

2). Why did Ahab's harpoon work on Earth-616 Jean Grey when it was clearly keyed for Rachel Summers of Earth-811?

[/CENTER]

As explained in the book and in the image you posted. Ahab's harpoons target people on their genetic level. Rachel is the daughter of Jean Grey from 811. Jean Grey in every reality share a similar genetic code. Therefore because the harpoon is keyed to Rachel's genetics, Jean is affected but not nearly as much as she's not the intended target.

It's messy lol. But at the end of the day, Rachel is considered a unique multiversal individual, per 3 writers, as stated on page in several issues over 30 years. Until Tini, Chris, Alan, or a new writer writes something to explain why, this is all we have to go with.

[TimberWolf]

I grew up reading and loving Chris Claremont's X-Men stories (from #X-Men #121) and I hate to say it but not all of his stories/ideas make any sense in the long run.

[Micabe]

As explained in the book and in the image you posted. Ahab's harpoons target people on their genetic level. Rachel is the daughter of Jean Grey from 811. Jean Grey in every reality share a similar genetic code. Therefore because the harpoon is keyed to Rachel's genetics, Jean is affected but not nearly as much as she's not the intended target.

It's messy lol. But at the end of the day, Rachel is considered a unique multiversal individual, per 3 writers, as stated on page in several issues over 30 years. Until Tini, Chris, Alan, or a new writer writes something to explain why, this is all we have to go with.

I concede and concur... (And, that people is how two rational fans get their speaking points across without being rude to each other and risk being banned.)

Oh, I almost forgot to leave these here for future thought and discussion.

[Askani's Flame]

I concede and concur... (And, that people is how two rational fans get their speaking points across without being rude to each other and risk being banned.)

Oh, I almost forgot to leave these here for future thought and discussion.

I always wished they had followed up with it, alas. And I love our back and forths! You are a great fan and poster Micabe!

[Micabe]

I always wished they had followed up with it, alas. And I love our back and forths! You are a great fan and poster Micabe!

As are you Askani's Flame

[PyroFN]

Relevant.



I don’t know whether this helps or hurts understanding of how Rachel works, but at least we have confirmation that Claremont’s word is still law as far as Rachel’s uniqueness is concern.