ASM 3 (#897) Discussion

[Mercwmouth12]

Kind of not clear: is MJ dead after Moira grabbed her in FCBD and is reportedly “wearing her”? And when did that FCBD moment happen, in relationship to current issue?

Don't know. All mystery box stuff until it's revealed

[Refrax5]

In the first issue Tombstone tells Peter to let Spider-Man know that the upcoming gang war is all his fault and that he's going to show him how the world really works. In this issue he reiterates that. If you think that Peter's cry of "I've learned my lesson" was him simply begging for his own life, and not for the the Tombstone to stop the massacre, then you have misinterpreted the story.



It's a ridiculous leap. It was just a gag. There's nothing in the story to imply that he's a child beater. You could just as well argue that he was talking about the time he stabbed Thanos in the heart for spilling his beer.

Yeah, it's a weird level of overreaction.

[Kurolegacy]

Kind of not clear: is MJ dead after Moira grabbed her in FCBD and is reportedly “wearing her”? And when did that FCBD moment happen, in relationship to current issue? Are those kids sentinels?

Who knows? The Hellfire Gala hasn’t happened yet and this run sure as hell hasn’t shed any light on MJ’s current status, instead opting to open on that bombshell with the kids and then just leave that to fester.

[Lee]

I didn't say it was just for his life - I said it could be read as all three - but if you don't think he's also begging for his life, then you don't understand the basic human instinct to survive.

And isn't Wells's Peter just oh so smart for falling exactly into Tombstone's trap without a second thought? And isn't it perfectly awesome and oh so heroic to watch Peter be beaten to a pulp, unable to do anything in his defense except to beg pitifully? Yeah, this is why I read Spider-Man. So inspirational. So not nerfed. So not graphic violence for violence's sake.

It's really nice of you to defend this issue. But you understand the criticism isn't personal....?

I didn't care for the issue. I found your criticism of Peter's actions to be strange. You doubted that Peter was begging for Tombstone to call off the massacre and you were critical of Peter for resorting to begging at all. Given the situation Peter was in, he had no other option. Begging for Tombstone to call off the massacre was the correct thing to do, the moral thing to do, even if it was a longshot. Peter had no other options.

It's just a gag? You seem awfully certain about Wells's intent. Interesting.

There's nothing in the story to imply he's a child beater, but there is plenty of child endangerment and death in Wells's comic book work (Shed, Hellions, Carnage USA, etc) so the speculation is not that entirely out of left field.

It's written with the cadence of a gag. I am confident that Paul and MJ weren't having a casual conversation about the time he beat a child in that scene. It's a reach so absurd that it isn't worth considering. Seeing controversy where there isn't any.

[Lunala]

overreaction.

Zeb Wells has a history with child murder and crossed a line with Ben so it makes sense that folks are suspicious. I think it was just a joke but I could be wrong.

I think it's entirely possible Tombstone could beat Spider-Man with prep. Pete might be stronger than him but the mobster is still very strong. He factored in the speed differences with the truck stunt. His durability is better than Spider-Man and you should never underestimate a tank. After the mobster's lackluster performance in Spencer's run, Peter got overconfident. The only reason I don't think fans are being unreasonable is that we are celebrating an anniversary year.

[TinkerSpider]

I didn't care for the issue. I found your criticism of Peter's actions to be strange. You doubted that Peter was begging for Tombstone to call off the massacre and you were critical of Peter for resorting to begging at all. Given the situation Peter was in, he had no other option. Begging for Tombstone to call off the massacre was the correct thing to do, the moral thing to do, even if it was a longshot. Peter had no other options.

Yes, I agree, Wells so nerfed Peter that he was resorted to ineffectually begging.

He wasn't just begging to stop the massacre, he was begging for everything, including his life, and that IS in context because the last panel is a gun in Spider-Man's face with him yelling Stop! even after Tombstone left.

It's written with the cadence of a gag.

Now who's reaching?

We don't "hear" the other person on the other end of the line. We have no idea what the cadence is.

I am confident that Paul and MJ weren't having a casual conversation about the time he beat a child in that scene. It's a reach so absurd that it isn't worth considering. Seeing controversy where there isn't any.

Cool.

However, while I wasn't the OP, there have been a lot of jokey comments on this board about how Paul is probably going to eat the kids on page given what happened in Shed. I read the post as a comment on how when kids show up in a Wells book, they tend to be endangered and murdered.

Zeb Wells has a history with child murder and crossed a line with Ben so it makes sense that folks are suspicious. I think it was just a joke but I could be wrong.

I think it's entirely possible Tombstone could beat Spider-Man with prep. Pete might be stronger than him but the mobster is still very strong. He factored in the speed differences with the truck stunt. His durability is better than Spider-Man and you should never underestimate a tank. After the mobster's lackluster performance in Spencer's run, Peter got overconfident. The only reason I don't think fans are being unreasonable is that we are celebrating an anniversary year.

It was stupid of Spider-Man to jump into the truck in the first place. The massacre was well over by the time he arrived and Tombstone deliberately left Crime Master alive, which meant CM wasn't in any immediate danger. (Hey, what happened to CM?) Peter would have been better off putting a spider-tracer on the truck and taking Tombstone by surprise in a place more condusive to Spider-Man's fighting strengths. You'd think this was his first month as a superhero, not into his second decade as a superhero (Slott put him at 13 years post Spider-bite in ASM Vol. #4, and there have been at least two time skips since then if not more).

But I think most complaints stem from Tombstone finding cuffs and chains that are able to hold Spider-Man. All Tombstone says is, "those chains aren't going to give." Yeah, that's not enough to bridge the suspension of disbelief IMO. Especially when you know Spider-Man will probably break them next issue - or be rescued. *shrug*

[dornwolf]

Don't know. All mystery box stuff until it's revealed

Buzz grabbing Woody….”mystery boxes everywhere” gotta start paying at least one mystery box by the end of this. I don’t think the run can sustain it self on never answering things. Things are getting expensive and comics would be first on most peoples cut list to save money….especially if you find it’s not worth it cause nothing is being answered.

[Lee]

Yes, I agree, Wells so nerfed Peter that he was resorted to ineffectually begging.

He wasn't just begging to stop the massacre, he was begging for everything, including his life, and that IS in context because the last panel is a gun in Spider-Man's face with him yelling Stop! even after Tombstone left.

And begging for Tombstone to stop the massacre, even if it was a longshot, was the ethical thing to do.

I disagreed with your original statement that "Peter doesn't beg for civilian's lives." He did beg for civilians' lives.

I also disagree with your suggestion that Peter shouldn't have bothered pleading for civilians' lives because he's known Tombstone for years. It would have been unethical for Peter to not attempt the only option available to him.

Now who's reaching?

We don't "hear" the other person on the other end of the line. We have no idea what the cadence is.

Only hearing one side of the conversation is the joke. This is a common joke format in television. The other side of the conversation is left to the audience's imagination.

But the conversation obviously wasn't about him beating a child, or decapitating a nun. That doesn't track with the rest of the conversation. That's not the tone of the scene. That's not the audience playing along with the joke, that's the audience willfully misreading a scene.

[TinkerSpider]

And begging for Tombstone to stop the massacre, even if it was a longshot, was the ethical thing to do.

I disagreed with your original statement that "Peter doesn't beg for civilian's lives." He did beg for civilians' lives.

I also disagree with your suggestion that Peter shouldn't have bothered pleading for civilians' lives because he's known Tombstone for years. It would have been unethical for Peter to not attempt the only option available to him.

He mentions the civilians only once. He's certainly not hammering the point.

And I didn't say he shouldn't have bothered.

I said he knew Tombstone would know he was lying and therefore he should know it wasn't going to work.

It's ineffectual. And makes him a kowtowing liar, which granted, he has his reasons, but he's still kissing up to Tombstone and telling him what he thinks Lonnie wants to hear (which I suppose is better than actually giving the Devil exactly what the Devil wants, so yay you, Pete for taking a step up from that).

Which great, he has to try something, but begging like that was...cringey and nerfed.

Only hearing one side of the conversation is the joke. This is a common joke format in television. The other side of the conversation is left to the audience's imagination.

We know what Sheldon Cooper or Leslie Knope or Jake Peralta or Dre Johnson or Janine Teagues or Ted Lasso sound like. We know the cadence of their delivery so we know from their tone and timing what is being said on the other end. We have no idea what Paul sounds like. He's said, like, what, ten lines or so of dialogue in three issues? We also have no idea what the person on the other end of the line is saying.

But the conversation obviously wasn't about him beating a child, or decapitating a nun. That doesn't track with the rest of the conversation. That's not the tone of the scene. That's not the audience playing along with the joke, that's the audience willfully misreading a scene.

No, but it tracks with conversations in this forum.

It was a joke based on Wells's writing history of multilated and murdered children.

Don't like the joke, blame Wells for going to that well so often.

[Lee]

He mentions the civilians only once. He's certainly not hammering the point.

And I didn't say he shouldn't have bothered.

I said he knew Tombstone would know he was lying and therefore he should know it wasn't going to work.

It's ineffectual. And makes him a kowtowing liar, which granted, he has his reasons, but he's still kissing up to Tombstone and telling him what he thinks Lonnie wants to hear (which I suppose is better than actually giving the Devil exactly what the Devil wants, so yay you, Pete).

Which, great, I suppose he has to try something, but it's...cringey and nerfed.

Peter starts pleading with Tombstone after he tells him of his plan to massacre civilians.

What do you think Peter should have done, given the situation he was in?

We know what Jerry Seinfeld or Sheldon Cooper or Chandler Bing or Jake Peralta sound like. We know the cadence of their delivery so we know from their tone and timing what is being said on the other end. We have no idea what Paul sounds like. He's said, like, what, ten lines or so of dialogue in three issues? We also have no idea what the person on the other end of the line is saying.

Then it was a joke that didn't work for you. What it wasn't, was an indication that Paul beats children and his girlfriend Mary Jane is aware of it.

No, but it tracks with conversations in this forum.

It was a joke based on Wells's writing history of multilated and murdered children.

Don't like the joke, blame Wells for going to that well so often.

The poster who made the comment said it was a "theory/interpretation".

[TinkerSpider]

Peter starts pleading with Tombstone after he tells him of his plan to massacre civilians.

What do you think Peter should have done, given the situation he was in?

Used his supposed smarts, for example. Like pointing out how stupid Tombstone's plan is, thinking he can fool superheroes like Daredevil, who can tell if someone is lying by listening to their heartbeat, with masquerade costumes. Or pointing out if Tombstone truly loves his daughter, he will alienate her forever by hurting/killing the father of the man she loves. Or even pointing out how Lonnie can't make up his mind: he's teaching Spider-Man a lesson that do-gooders shouldn't interfere, but his big gang war plan depends on...do-gooders interfering.

Those arguments also may not work - Lonnie is pretty determined - but they don't make Spider-Man a sniveling begger who is telling a villain what he thinks a villain wants to hear.

Still, better than giving the Devil exactly what the Devil wants.

Then it was a joke that didn't work for you.

You are the only person I've seen across the web interpreting it as a joke.

The poster who made the comment said it was a "theory/interpretation".

Yeah. Based on Wells's track record of harming children in multiple books.

[Refrax5]

Zeb Wells has a history with child murder and crossed a line with Ben so it makes sense that folks are suspicious. I think it was just a joke but I could be wrong.

I think it's entirely possible Tombstone could beat Spider-Man with prep. Pete might be stronger than him but the mobster is still very strong. He factored in the speed differences with the truck stunt. His durability is better than Spider-Man and you should never underestimate a tank. After the mobster's lackluster performance in Spencer's run, Peter got overconfident. The only reason I don't think fans are being unreasonable is that we are celebrating an anniversary year.

I don't like Wells as a writer and I think this run sucks. But like the poster above said, the reference to the "one time" he was supposedly violent is written in a lighthearted cadence about something apparently Paul had mostly forgotten about, so these wild speculations that Paul and MJ are having casual banter about him beating his children comes across as VERY dramatic. I'm sure Paul will end up being shady or something, but these reactions are not supported in any way by the text.

[Tendrin]

Yeah, it's a weird level of overreaction.

'"Showing a weird level of overreaction' can describe a great deal of fandom, and Spidey fandom in particular, much of the time.

[Refrax5]

'"Showing a weird level of overreaction' can describe a great deal of fandom, and Spidey fandom in particular, much of the time.

I really should be aware of that by now.

[Matt Rat]

Zeb Wells has a history with child murder and crossed a line with Ben so it makes sense that folks are suspicious

I don't think what I suggest is an 'overeaction' of any kind, is it extreme? Yes, but Wells is an extreme sort of writer who we all know is capable of these twists.