Cosmic Awakened Fear Garou VS Post Crisis Superman

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

What is Garou’s counter to heat vision or ice breath?

[Captain Morgan]

What is Garou’s counter to heat vision or ice breath?

He channels cosmic energy on a gamma burst, planet busting scale. I'm not sure heat and cold can work on him anymore.

This seems to largely ride on how you evaluate the speed feat.

[Captain Morgan]

So if we take the original chapter with the planet push out of the running, the redraw still has Garou slamming Saitama through an enormous mountain and driving him so far into the earth it dislodges an oceanic plate and causes a new land mass to emerge on the other side of the planet. We just don't have visible distortion of the entire southern hemisphere.

That's still strong enough to hurt this Clark, IMO, and that level was no sold by Saitama. So if Garou is fast enough to compete this feels like his fight to lose. The constellation feat is rather ridiculous, especially if you read it as a city sized construct.

[Rightoya]

They dislodge an oceanic plate and visibly distort the shape of the planet, effectively making one hemisphere bigger than the other.

That said, the author keeps redrawing whole chapters and I think they scene might not be canon now, which is a big blow to Garou's striking power. He's destroying mountain and karate chopping through creatures the length of Earth's atmosphere, but he's not into the planet busting territory from that.

That sounds physically very wacky, but if it is not getting redrawn Garou should be able to hurt post-crisis Superman now, although if that and the mentioned speed is all Garou got i still don't see any shot for him in this fight.

[Captain Morgan]

That sounds physically very wacky, but if it is not getting redrawn Garou should be able to hurt post-crisis Superman now, although if that and the mentioned speed is all Garou got i still don't see any shot for him in this fight.

If he's got comparable speed, then Clark simply isn't touching Garou based on martial arts skill. He's a martial arts prodigy whose resume is absurd. He also has a mid-fight power growth curve that makes Saiyans look like lazy stoners. Those striking and speed feats were performed by a weaker version of Garou that Saitama clowned on, and now he's matching Saitama blow for blow. And that growth happened within the same fight. So if he can hang with Clark's speed, he's just going to keep getting stronger if he's initially outmatched.

So it hinges on the speed feat. Looking across a few issues, I think it would actually be reasonable to say those light structures stretch more than a mile across at their furthest points. We see it from a bunch of different perspectives and it seems to stretch over just a metric ton of city blocks. There are about 20.4 city blocks in a mile, and those giant holes encompass at least that much, probably significantly more, and the constellations appear at least as wide as the holes. Also worth noting that isn't created by fliers, but by people jumping off rubble tossed into the air by the force of their battle. So there's a level of coordination present there beyond just travel speed.

I find those things covering over 200 miles of total travel plausible, is what I'm saying. And again, cosmic Garou could casually blitz the version who made the constellation. I acknowledge it is a hard feat to measure... Though to be honest so are lots of Clark's.

[Rightoya]

If he's got comparable speed, then Clark simply isn't touching Garou based on martial arts skill. He's a martial arts prodigy whose resume is absurd.

From what i have seen Garou has no comparable speed, and if martial arts skills would be all it takes, Wonder Woman who has comparable speed and very effective magical weapons in addition would have ragdolled Superman any time they fought.

He also has a mid-fight power growth curve that makes Saiyans look like lazy stoners. Those striking and speed feats were performed by a weaker version of Garou that Saitama clowned on, and now he's matching Saitama blow for blow. And that growth happened within the same fight. So if he can hang with Clark's speed, he's just going to keep getting stronger if he's initially outmatched.

Is this a confirmed power of Garou now?

So it hinges on the speed feat. Looking across a few issues, I think it would actually be reasonable to say those light structures stretch more than a mile across at their furthest points. We see it from a bunch of different perspectives and it seems to stretch over just a metric ton of city blocks. There are about 20.4 city blocks in a mile, and those giant holes encompass at least that much, probably significantly more, and the constellations appear at least as wide as the holes. Also worth noting that isn't created by fliers, but by people jumping off rubble tossed into the air by the force of their battle. So there's a level of coordination present there beyond just travel speed.

I find those things covering over 200 miles of total travel plausible, is what I'm saying. And again, cosmic Garou could casually blitz the version who made the constellation. I acknowledge it is a hard feat to measure... Though to be honest so are lots of Clark's.

Well if we would use all hard to measure feats, especially with generous interpretation, even post-crisis Superman should be well in the faster than light range.

[Nik Hasta]

Is this a confirmed power of Garou now?

Now? What do you mean now?

Absorbing other people's techniques and making their abilities his own has literally always been his primary power set from like his second fight in the series onwards.

Again, have you actually read OPM or are you just pontificating without any actual knowledge of the character?

[Captain Morgan]

From what i have seen Garou has no comparable speed, and if martial arts skills would be all it takes, Wonder Woman who has comparable speed and very effective magical weapons in addition would have ragdolled Superman any time they fought.

Wonder Woman isn't as good a fighter as Garou for pure skill. Lady Shiva isn't as good a fighter for pure skill. He sees a martial arts master fight once and not only copies their style but dramatically improves it. Wonder Woman is great and all, but she's got a losing record against Batman and Black Canary without using her powers.

Is this a confirmed power of Garou now?

Yes. As Nik notes he does this out the gate with techniques, but now he's full out mutating mid-fight, gaining things like extra arms and wings. He goes from being able to barely crack the carapace of an enemy to splitting it in half with one blow in the same fight.

Well if we would use all hard to measure feats, especially with generous interpretation, even post-crisis Superman should be well in the faster than light range.

Let me ask then, how far do you think they are traveling for those light paths?

[Rightoya]

Now? What do you mean now?

Absorbing other people's techniques and making their abilities his own has literally always been his primary power set from like his second fight in the series onwards.

Again, have you actually read OPM or are you just pontificating without any actual knowledge of the character?

Do you have a personal problem with me now, just because i don't think that Tai Lung is supersonic?
This was about strength, which is a stat and not an ability or technique.

Wonder Woman isn't as good a fighter as Garou for pure skill. Lady Shiva isn't as good a fighter for pure skill. He sees a martial arts master fight once and not only copies their style but dramatically improves it.

Wonder Woman or Shiva don't have this kind of ability that is more a power than a actual martial art skill anyway, but they are still especially in post-crisis far more skilled than Superman in terms of martial arts skill, and without going into something like Torquasm is copying not even helpful against Superman.

Wonder Woman is great and all, but she's got a losing record against Batman and Black Canary without using her powers.

If we use obvious jobbing moments were it is not even clear how Wonder Woman should have even just reduced her perception speed as example, or Black Canary even suddenly becomes incredibly much faster than she typically is and somehow moves in the nanosecond it takes Wonder Woman to adjust:



we could also use something like this blind sparring as prove that Wonder Woman could solo Martian Manhunter, Flash, Plastic Man, Black Canary, and Batman put together:



but of course with Batman as the biggest challenge lol:



but we shouldn't do that and the point still stands, if Garou's martial arts skill would mean that Superman can't even touch him, Wonder Woman would have ragdolled him any time they fought, especially with the advantage of the very effective magical weapons Garou clearly lacks.

Yes. As Nik notes he does this out the gate with techniques, but now he's full out mutating mid-fight, gaining things like extra arms and wings. He goes from being able to barely crack the carapace of an enemy to splitting it in half with one blow in the same fight.

With his extra arms?

Let me ask then, how far do you think they are traveling for those light paths?

Hard to say, but going by the size of the clashes at absolute best 100s of feet in the individual lines, i would still go with a fraction of light speed, but not a significant fraction like half the speed of light, let alone 90%.

[Nik Hasta]

Do you have a personal problem with me now, just because i don't think that Tai Lung is supersonic?
This was about strength, which is a stat and not an ability or technique.

I don't have a specific problem with you (nor did I claim Tai Lung was supersonic for that matter). But I note that this is the second thread in a short period where you have entered the argument and clearly do not have a full grasp of the characters in question.

My confusion is at you seeming surprised to hear about Garou's ability to evolve, absorb techniques and grow at a shockingly quick rate. As I said, this has been a power of his since his introduction in the original webcomic which came out like... multiple years ago.

Like, it seems a bit ill-advised to be debating a fight when you don't actually know what one of the participants is capable of to the point where you are surprised to hear about the logic his powers work on.

Hard to say, but going by the size of the clashes at absolute best 100s of feet in the individual lines

That's pretty clearly a wild undersell compared to what's shown in the art itself.

[Nik Hasta]

Okay, so previously I had said that I felt that the light construct feat was a bit too tricky to work out so I wasn't going to try, but as it has come up a couple of times recently and is a bit of a linchpin for how we place Garou in terms of his speed, I figured I'd take a crack at it.

Also, yes I am procrastinating rather than working, don't you judge me.

Also, also, I am going to try and lowball the heck out of this. Establish a minimum criteria for how fast they are likely going rather than fully pitch how fast it might be.

Okay, as with any speed calculation we need to know the two core elements, distance and time. Fortunately, for the second [larger] light construct, we have a timestamp. While the formatting of the clock is a bit unclear, broadly I've seen it accepted as 0.0013 seconds or 1.3 milliseconds. For the purposes of this post, we'll be assuming this is the correct reading of the clock.

So that leaves us with distance. As it's a purely aerial display and perspective isn't always 100% correct, even with an artist of Murata's skill, I'll be using some environmental things to try and ballpark out the distances in play. As a lot happens to the environment in this fight, this will take a bit of context building but stick with me.

Firstly, here's the big shot of the totality of the second light construct:



The most obvious feature, besides the city itself beneath them, is the large hole toward the bottom of the image. This is actually a useful geographic feature because we saw this whole being initially made and subsequently enlarged, so we have a pretty good idea of how big it is.

Here we see Tatsumaki dragging the monster HQ to the surface: Scan 01, Scan 02, Scan 03. Of note, in the third image, you will see several entire blocks of houses being flipped over by the eruption of this structure being pulled up.

I'm going to just quote myself from an older thread here when I was pointing out the scale of Psykos:

Heck, you know what, just to be extra clear - here's a fun sequence to illustrate how big the rocks are.

In this sequence, Tatsumaki blasts out through a 30 storey building that is on top of the Monster Association HQ she dragged to the surface. On the second page we can see there is enough space on the top of the tower for several buildings of that scale, like ten of them, so the tower is very big.

On the third page we see Psykos' full form on the top of the tower. Eyeballing it, the 30 storey building from before would be the size of the forearms of her human parts. She is ridiculously big.

We get a further idea from this shot when Psykos fires from the top of the tower and we see that she's also cutting through cloud formations from her point of elevation and how the tower stands in scale to the rest of the city. It is really big and the top of the thinnest point of the tower is still large enough that it can hold a 100+ storey tall monster on it.

So, as the fight progress, the tower is twisted into a longer and thinner shape and, more notably, creates those hooked horn like features towards the bottom of the second image. These will be useful for the next geographical change.

Tatsumaki then psychically tears out the remains of the tower to create a lance. Again, we can see those clear, hooked shapes in both images are wildly huge, absolutely dwarfing the buildings that are close to them, they are hundreds of metres long. Please also note that horns surround the main hole on all sides.

Finally, Tatsumaki slams the lance into the hole, and this makes the hole wider once more and destroys all of the hooked shapes as seen the first image I posted of the light construct above but here is a better shot of it during the first light construct battle.

OKAY END CONTEXT. *phew*

So!

Looking at the scale of the hooked shapes, the fact that the lance destroys all of them and widens the hole even further, I would conservatively estimate that the width of the hole is about 500 metres across. I would personally be inclined to say it's more but as stated I'm lowballing to retain an air of objectivity.

Before we go to the second, and specifically noted as larger, light construct battle. Let's just look at the first one in wide shot:



You can see, clearly, that the battle is covering a distance /many/ times larger than the hole we've just worked out is about 500 metres across. Without getting into exactly how much distance is being exactly covered, in terms of /height alone/ they are roughly 8 hole widths in the sky which would have them having travelled vertically more than 4,000 metres (or 2.4 miles) in the course of this battle. Given the amount of turns and doubling back that goes on in the actual pattern I would (very loosely and again lowballing hard) pitch it in the region of 25,000 metres (or 15.5 miles)

Please note, we don't have an exact timestamp for this first construct, which is why my initial assessment was that this really hard to calculate and not worth bothering with.

However, we now have a timestamp for the second sequence.

Looking back at the first image of the second light construct, the one timestamped as happening in 0.0013 seconds, they have travelled (at minimum) a similar distance up and thrown far more attacks and doubled back on themselves a lot in the process of doing so. They are doing more dense and complex fighting over a frankly massive area.

To aggressively lowball this again, let's say they moved only /twice/ as far as my lowball estimate total (again, I would think it would be more based on the much higher density of the pattern) this would still put them at travelling 31 miles in 0.0013 seconds which would put them at a bit under 15% lightspeed easily.

And on top of all of that, Garou upgraded himself to a true monster form, getting even faster and stronger, and then got pretty effortlessly owned by Saitama with consecutive normal punches, Garou being unable to keep up with the flurry of blows despite even having an additional set of arms. Since then he gained the Cosmic Fear upgrade and is now apparently even with him in terms of speed.

So, yeah, that's a bit of an in-depth look at the feat in question. I don't have the time or inclination to try and measure out the trails of either pattern completely (also I think that goes against the spirit of the board of being that granular) but I hope I've made it clear that the light constructs cover literal miles of space in terms of their volume.

[Sharpandpointies]

I don't think we have any rules about getting granular, it's just that reducing everything to calcs can create some pretty weird numbers that don't match up with how things are done around here in other ways (ie, we can toss out 'that match the character's presentation' for a whole load of feats).

In this case, if we're trying to work out some high-end stuff for someone who keeps breaking the limits of their 'presentation' in-story, I don't have a problem with it to get an idea of where Garou stands. Runs. Whatever.

My feeling, based on your pretty darned good work above, would be that if Garou is running at ~15% lightspeed two powerups ago, one of which was him getting blitzed by consecutive normal punches, then next one having him easily dealing with consecutive normal punches, we're talking about easily a doubling if not tripling of speed.

So...yeah, significant fraction of lightspeed sounds about right to me. Like, a big fraction - 1/3 to 1/2 of lightspeed, based on the above. Mileage, etc.

Smart idea with lowballing, I like that myself.

[Nik Hasta]

I don't think we have any rules about getting granular, it's just that reducing everything to calcs can create some pretty weird numbers that don't match up with how things are done around here in other ways (ie, we can toss out 'that match the character's presentation' for a whole load of feats).

Agreed, there's no specific rule. My feeling is also that stories are not written with absolute realism in mind and there needs to be some wiggle room for what is intended by the story versus what is portrayed on the page. If you value calcs too highly, you can easily lose sight of that and get into some weird spots [counting pixels or frames or whatever].

Smart idea with lowballing, I like that myself.

Always lowball, that way you establish a floor rather than a ceiling.

[Sharpandpointies]

Agreed, there's no specific rule. My feeling is also that stories are not written with absolute realism in mind and there needs to be some wiggle room for what is intended by the story versus what is portrayed on the page. If you value calcs too highly, you can easily lose sight of that and get into some weird spots [counting pixels or frames or whatever].

Absolutely.

Always lowball, that way you establish a floor rather than a ceiling.

My feelings exactly, well-summed.

[Captain Morgan]

At 50% light speed he would have an uphill battle, but he could use his skills and body reading to close that gap a bit (like he did against Saitama in the webcomic) and only needs to last long enough to adapt. (And again, this is a low ball calc of the speed.)

He's also gotten complete knowledge of the flow of energy and the fundamental forces of the universe ported into his brain. With the gamma burst he should also be capable of pumping out red sun radiation. I know kryptonite is common knowledge, but is the red sun weakness one as well?