Cosmic Awakened Fear Garou VS Post Crisis Superman

[Cody]

Alrighty, so speedwise they seem comparable, but it doesn't seem to me that Garou has the oomph to really put down Superman outside of his strongest attack that could bust a planet.(and even then that only indicates that attack would harm Superman big time, yet not necessarily kill him or put him down for the count). Superman however does have great range game himself, as well as the IMP. We don't know if Garou has even hurt Saitama at this point(doesn't seem like it as Saitama still seems bored here) so idk how to figure if anything other than Garous best attack could do enough damage before Superman stares him down with heat vision. Does Garou have good resistance to freezing temperatures? For frost breath could be an option for a 10 count.

[Captain Morgan]

Alrighty, so speedwise they seem comparable, but it doesn't seem to me that Garou has the oomph to really put down Superman outside of his strongest attack that could bust a planet.(and even then that only indicates that attack would harm Superman big time, yet not necessarily kill him or put him down for the count). Superman however does have great range game himself, as well as the IMP. We don't know if Garou has even hurt Saitama at this point(doesn't seem like it as Saitama still seems bored here) so idk how to figure if anything other than Garous best attack could do enough damage before Superman stares him down with heat vision. Does Garou have good resistance to freezing temperatures? For frost breath could be an option for a 10 count.

Again, he's channeling the most energetic explosions in the universe through his body... I'm leery of temperature changes doing much to him.

Also, if he can hurt Clark and land hits on Clark, he can take Clark down. Between landing multiple blows and targeting pressure points, eye gouges, what have you, Garou can definitely wear Clark down, as he's been doing to guys above his weight class for strength and durability for years now.

The question is if he can last long enough to make that into a contest.

[Rightoya]

I don't have a specific problem with you (nor did I claim Tai Lung was supersonic for that matter). But I note that this is the second thread in a short period where you have entered the argument and clearly do not have a full grasp of the characters in question.

My confusion is at you seeming surprised to hear about Garou's ability to evolve, absorb techniques and grow at a shockingly quick rate. As I said, this has been a power of his since his introduction in the original webcomic which came out like... multiple years ago.

If i don't have a full grasp, i just ask like i did, where is the problem?

And my main discussion points are anyway that the feat don't seems to show comparable speed, and that Wonder Woman is the perfect example that even significantly higher martial arts skill don't makes a character with comparable speed untouchable to Superman.

Like, it seems a bit ill-advised to be debating a fight when you don't actually know what one of the participants is capable of to the point where you are surprised to hear about the logic his powers work on.

I don't think so, and that would exclude anyone without a full grasp of post-crisis Superman from the discussion.

That's pretty clearly a wild undersell compared to what's shown in the art itself.

As you have said this, it was something of a lowball:

Like even if you do what I think is still something of a lowball like saying 500 attacks and they move on average 100 metres per attack, you still come out at like 13% light speed.

but if i say something that could even go higher, it is suddenly a wild undersell?

[Nik Hasta]

If i don't have a full grasp, i just ask like i did, where is the problem?

I don't think so, and that would exclude anyone without a full grasp of post-crisis Superman from the discussion.

I mean, I don't feel I have a full grasp of post crisis Superman but I at least conceptually understand what his abilities are. The position you seem to be arguing from with regards to Garou is like saying "what do you mean Superman can fly? since when has he had heat vision,"

Like, I'm just a bit surprised that you'd get this deep into the weeds in a rumble but also don't appear to know what Garou's basic powerset is.

As you have said this, it was something of a lowball:

but if i say something that could even go higher, it is suddenly a wild undersell?

Not sure I follow what you mean by this, can you rephrase?

[Sharpandpointies]

It's often really hard to figure out where high-end bricks are with regards to their martial art skill. Wonder Woman is considerably more skilled than Superman and other high-end bricks, sure. Like, loads. But how much more skilled? And how skilled are THEY? It's often difficult to tell.

And when Diana fights against someone while 'holding back', it's meaningless. Great, Dinah wins a spar against her when Diana is obviously holding back. It's also a SPAR, not a real fight. How much is Diana holding back? How much is she actually not trying very hard to boot (because 'spar' not 'life or death')? It's really meaningless.

For me, the best stuff to determine the skill of high-end bricks is the odd occasion when they've been depowered. For me, it really kind of showed the difference between Diana and Bruce when, loooong ago, she was depowered and ended up fighting against a fairly big mob of people armed with baseball bats and knives. She won, but took a bit of a beating in the doing (had some cuts, took some lumps).

Now, it's pretty darned impressive that she could do that. Like, we're getting into second string-level comic book martial artist - before getting his second big training thing, Tim Drake was struggling to beat up mobs of people, so she would be better than him at that point (and Tim, for all he was the weakest of the Robins, wasn't that bad of a fighter at all). But it's not on the level of the people who 100% depend on their martial skill and ability to get by, and who are considered the best of the best. Bruce annihilates mobs like that when starved, wounded, and drugged. Cassandra Cain drops entire mobs faster than Tim Drake recovers getting clonked on the head with a bat; by the time he shakes his stun, he's surrounded by unconscious people and she has already left.

But no shame there; couple that level of skill with Diana's higher-end Class 100 strength and her Getting Into Significant Fraction of Light speed, and yeah...scary.

Sadly, that only really works for Diana waaaaay back in the mid Post-Crisis era because that's where the feat is from. I have no idea how she stacks up now, skillwise. I would imagine that her skill with weapons is actually BETTER than her skill with hand to hand, due to modern Wonder Woman's more weapon-based fighting.

I guess it's worth asking - Diana hit anyone's pressure points since the reboot? Get depowered and have to fight? Stuff like that?

[Captain Morgan]

It's often really hard to figure out where high-end bricks are with regards to their martial art skill. Wonder Woman is considerably more skilled than Superman and other high-end bricks, sure. Like, loads. But how much more skilled? And how skilled are THEY? It's often difficult to tell.

And when Diana fights against someone while 'holding back', it's meaningless. Great, Dinah wins a spar against her when Diana is obviously holding back. It's also a SPAR, not a real fight. How much is Diana holding back? How much is she actually not trying very hard to boot (because 'spar' not 'life or death')? It's really meaningless.

For me, the best stuff to determine the skill of high-end bricks is the odd occasion when they've been depowered. For me, it really kind of showed the difference between Diana and Bruce when, loooong ago, she was depowered and ended up fighting against a fairly big mob of people armed with baseball bats and knives. She won, but took a bit of a beating in the doing (had some cuts, took some lumps).

Now, it's pretty darned impressive that she could do that. Like, we're getting into second string-level comic book martial artist - before getting his second big training thing, Tim Drake was struggling to beat up mobs of people, so she would be better than him at that point (and Tim, for all he was the weakest of the Robins, wasn't that bad of a fighter at all). But it's not on the level of the people who 100% depend on their martial skill and ability to get by, and who are considered the best of the best. Bruce annihilates mobs like that when starved, wounded, and drugged. Cassandra Cain drops entire mobs faster than Tim Drake recovers getting clonked on the head with a bat; by the time he shakes his stun, he's surrounded by unconscious people and she has already left.

But no shame there; couple that level of skill with Diana's higher-end Class 100 strength and her Getting Into Significant Fraction of Light speed, and yeah...scary.

Sadly, that only really works for Diana waaaaay back in the mid Post-Crisis era because that's where the feat is from. I have no idea how she stacks up now, skillwise. I would imagine that her skill with weapons is actually BETTER than her skill with hand to hand, due to modern Wonder Woman's more weapon-based fighting.

I guess it's worth asking - Diana hit anyone's pressure points since the reboot? Get depowered and have to fight? Stuff like that?

This. It doesn't get easier to compare woth the difference between martial arts skill normally caps around Batman with a few notable figures exceeding it-- Shiva, Cassandra Cain, a couple others post crisis. Normally being good at martial arts doesn't let you dodge deflect bullets with your barehands in DC like it does in many anime. But then you have the Karate Kid who blows away most of those limits.

Garou is closer to the Val Amor end of that spectrum. People in his world can punch through class 50 monsters with ease with martial arts skills alone, and Garou exceeds those people.

[Sharpandpointies]

This. It doesn't get easier to compare woth the difference between martial arts skill normally caps around Batman with a few notable figures exceeding it-- Shiva, Cassandra Cain, a couple others post crisis. Normally being good at martial arts doesn't let you dodge deflect bullets with your barehands in DC like it does in many anime. But then you have the Karate Kid who blows away most of those limits.

Garou is closer to the Val Amor end of that spectrum. People in his world can punch through class 50 monsters with ease with martial arts skills alone, and Garou exceeds those people.

I do recall that Garou was doing stuff like 'deflecting the gunfire from chainguns', 'killing giant monsters', 'outright superspeed' and so forth before he got monstercized or whatever it's called, and all of that was based on him using his own, evolving Martial Arts.

I'm pretty thin on anyone in DC other than Val being more skilled than him.

[Captain Morgan]

On the heat vision... I'm remembering that Garou withstood the flames of Orochi like 70 chapters ago, a monster with fire power on a tectonic scale. He just took it and looked a little crispy but wasn't even slowed down. He also proved he could keep fighting and growing stronger and faster after having holes punched through his body in the same fight. So even if the heat vision can harm him, I don't see it being a fight ender. And he's also plenty good at evading flaming AoEs from his Genos fight.

I think at this point even if Superman edges him out in any particular stats (and that is a big of for striking power and speed, IMO)it doesn't seem enough to overwhelm Garou and put him down before he adapts. You'd need to go higher up the totem pole to make it stick.

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

When Superman lost his powers he was able to use “comic pressure point”. So he isn’t completely unskilled. Isn’t WW meant to be about as skilled as Batman?

[Captain Morgan]

When Superman lost his powers he was able to use “comic pressure point”. So he isn’t completely unskilled. Isn’t WW meant to be about as skilled as Batman?

She doesn't have the feats to back it up without powers. And besides, Batman can't hold a candle to Garou for skill either.

[Rightoya]

I mean, I don't feel I have a full grasp of post crisis Superman but I at least conceptually understand what his abilities are. The position you seem to be arguing from with regards to Garou is like saying "what do you mean Superman can fly? since when has he had heat vision,"

Like, I'm just a bit surprised that you'd get this deep into the weeds in a rumble but also don't appear to know what Garou's basic powerset is.

Are you seriously trying to tell me, Garou just evolving from physically weaker than Superman to stronger in the middle of each fight would have been always his absolute basic power, like that Superman can fly?

Not sure I follow what you mean by this, can you rephrase?

In our earlier discussion, you said 100 meters per attack was something of a lowball, but now you call 100s of feet which could be even more than 100 meters per attack a wild undersell.

[BitVyper]

Are you seriously trying to tell me, Garou just evolving from physically weaker than Superman to stronger in the middle of each fight would have been always his absolute basic power, like that Superman can fly?

That is Garou's powerset, yes. I dunno what to tell you other than read the comic, like this is all being described for you. He literally gets gargantuan adaptive power boosts while fighting. He grows extra limbs and other body parts, he gets jets in his feet, he ramps up his speed massively, he becomes strong enough to punch through the entire planet and rupture dimensions. This all happens over like ten minutes.

I don't know what's particularly unbelievable about this. It's a comic.

[big_adventure]

Are you seriously trying to tell me, Garou just evolving from physically weaker than Superman to stronger in the middle of each fight would have been always his absolute basic power, like that Superman can fly?

This has been explained a number of times now: YES, that is Garou's basic superpower. He can absolutely evolve in the middle of a fight. He also comes back basically fully healed from near death amounts of damage in the middle of a fight. He has now done this repeatedly.

He is one of the most skilled fighters in any media you will see. And he combines that with the ability to take other fighters' skills, that they have honed over a lifetime and which are supported by massive superpowers, and make them better immediately, also mid-fight.

In our earlier discussion, you said 100 meters per attack was something of a lowball, but now you call 100s of feet which could be even more than 100 meters per attack a wild undersell.

If you look at the detailed explanation Nik made for you, you'll understand why! He shows you what is on the panel and makes extremely conservative estimates as to what that means. Honestly, just look at it. It's very obvious that he's setting the lowest of bars in his estimation: look at the image from the first example, and you can pretty clearly see that the holes take up more than 500m, and that there are more than 45 times that of distance, thus the distance is significantly greater than the 15mi lowball figure Nik offers. And the second example is massively larger and has massively more lines, meaning that 31mi is an even bigger lowball.

Calcs aren't the end-all be-all. But here, they give a bit of a baseline. And that level of Garou was humiliated by Saitama's consecutive normal punches, when Saitama was visibly not actually exerting himself and had promised to teach Garou a lesson without actually hurting him.

Garou then evolves again and winds up matching a "still don't want to hurt Garou" Saitama's consecutive normal punches. Saitama even laments at this moment that he might have to break his promise not to hurt Garou. This is all over two issues of a manga. It's not hard to just read it and see it yourself.

[Nik Hasta]

Are you seriously trying to tell me, Garou just evolving from physically weaker than Superman to stronger in the middle of each fight would have been always his absolute basic power, like that Superman can fly?

As others have stated, yes. Garou's whole deal is his insane growth and ability to instantly learn and elevate effectively /any/ technique or skill that he encounters.

In our earlier discussion, you said 100 meters per attack was something of a lowball, but now you call 100s of feet which could be even more than 100 meters per attack a wild undersell.

100 metres is ~350 feet so I don't think there is much of a meaningful difference between my two statements?

100 metres was a conservative lowball, "hundreds of feet," is likewise a lowball? Like, 1000 feet is only ~300 metres which would still be smaller than a lot of the distances between the attacks as you'll see from the breakdown I did which itself was lowballing the size of the hole I used for scale and the total distance travelled.

I'm really not seeing what your point is here.

[Captain Morgan]

I'll note there is most likely a wall on Garou's growth represented by Saitama. There was in the web comic and he's yet to actually hurt the guy. But I think Saitama has graduated to above the Superman of this era. You'd need need a Nu 52/Rebirth Clark to stop him.