Cosmic Awakened Fear Garou VS Post Crisis Superman

[big_adventure]

I'll note there is most likely a wall on Garou's growth represented by Saitama. There was in the web comic and he's yet to actually hurt the guy. But I think Saitama has graduated to above the Superman of this era. You'd need need a Nu 52/Rebirth Clark to stop him.

I agree - though even that might not be enough gun. We'll see what happens here. Shots that redo the topology of the planet do literally nothing to the guy. Getting hit by his own "basic" level of force does nothing to the guy. Getting hit by a gamma ray burst stated to be equivalent to the energy from black holes at the cores of galaxies... well, there we don't know yet.

Yes, yes, statements are kind of valueless, but that shot was at the very least somewhere above a "normal punch" and somewhere significantly above a shot that literally messed up the topology of the planet and which ripped holes between dimensions. Ugh. Powerscaling this stuff is getting out of hand.

[Captain Morgan]

I agree - though even that might not be enough gun. We'll see what happens here. Shots that redo the topology of the planet do literally nothing to the guy. Getting hit by his own "basic" level of force does nothing to the guy. Getting hit by a gamma ray burst stated to be equivalent to the energy from black holes at the cores of galaxies... well, there we don't know yet.

Yes, yes, statements are kind of valueless, but that shot was at the very least somewhere above a "normal punch" and somewhere significantly above a shot that literally messed up the topology of the planet and which ripped holes between dimensions. Ugh. Powerscaling this stuff is getting out of hand.

Yeah I mean we still have the asterisk, as always, that we have yet to see Saitama actually exert himself. But being conservative with what we have actually seen so far, and taking into account how stupid strong current Clark is, putting the two in the same tier feels about right to me.

[Cody]

Again, he's channeling the most energetic explosions in the universe through his body... I'm leery of temperature changes doing much to him.

What's to say the attack in question is actually on Par with the actual phenomenon in question though? I mean, I know the attack is named after it, but that doesn't mean it is to scale with the actual thing, just that it can potentially bust a planet.

Also, if he can hurt Clark and land hits on Clark, he can take Clark down. Between landing multiple blows and targeting pressure points, eye gouges, what have you, Garou can definitely wear Clark down, as he's been doing to guys above his weight class for strength and durability for years now.

The question is if he can last long enough to make that into a contest.

If they trade hands then yes, Garou will have a significant advantage, but Superman has options to keep away from Garou and nailing him with heat vision(which has shown capable of harming those as tough as Kal).

[Cody]

I agree - though even that might not be enough gun. We'll see what happens here. Shots that redo the topology of the planet do literally nothing to the guy. Getting hit by his own "basic" level of force does nothing to the guy. Getting hit by a gamma ray burst stated to be equivalent to the energy from black holes at the cores of galaxies... well, there we don't know yet.

Yes, yes, statements are kind of valueless, but that shot was at the very least somewhere above a "normal punch" and somewhere significantly above a shot that literally messed up the topology of the planet and which ripped holes between dimensions. Ugh. Powerscaling this stuff is getting out of hand.

Nu Supes benched the weight of a planet for weeks without a break, only shedding a single drop of sweat. Rebirth Superman had to be at the last dredges of his power to be as "weak" as that. Don't really see Saitama approaching that yet, and we don't know of Garous attack comes close to the level of scale of the actual event.

It's like how in Saint Seiya; a lot of the attacks function like their names imply, yet are nowhere near the actual scale(Galaxian explosion for example doesn't actually generate the power of say, our galaxy exploding, but a tiny one ranging from the size of ones head to that of a small building, yet still capable of busting a planet or star).

[Rightoya]

It's often really hard to figure out where high-end bricks are with regards to their martial art skill. Wonder Woman is considerably more skilled than Superman and other high-end bricks, sure. Like, loads. But how much more skilled? And how skilled are THEY? It's often difficult to tell.

And when Diana fights against someone while 'holding back', it's meaningless. Great, Dinah wins a spar against her when Diana is obviously holding back. It's also a SPAR, not a real fight. How much is Diana holding back? How much is she actually not trying very hard to boot (because 'spar' not 'life or death')? It's really meaningless.

For me, the best stuff to determine the skill of high-end bricks is the odd occasion when they've been depowered. For me, it really kind of showed the difference between Diana and Bruce when, loooong ago, she was depowered and ended up fighting against a fairly big mob of people armed with baseball bats and knives. She won, but took a bit of a beating in the doing (had some cuts, took some lumps).

Now, it's pretty darned impressive that she could do that. Like, we're getting into second string-level comic book martial artist - before getting his second big training thing, Tim Drake was struggling to beat up mobs of people, so she would be better than him at that point (and Tim, for all he was the weakest of the Robins, wasn't that bad of a fighter at all). But it's not on the level of the people who 100% depend on their martial skill and ability to get by, and who are considered the best of the best. Bruce annihilates mobs like that when starved, wounded, and drugged. Cassandra Cain drops entire mobs faster than Tim Drake recovers getting clonked on the head with a bat; by the time he shakes his stun, he's surrounded by unconscious people and she has already left.

But no shame there; couple that level of skill with Diana's higher-end Class 100 strength and her Getting Into Significant Fraction of Light speed, and yeah...scary.

I agree that the best of the best in DC are more skilled in sheer martial arts, but the fight you are probably thinking on at least also involved a pistol that got fired as Wonder Woman was distracted, and she didn't truly took any kind of beating and even her clothes were damaged before already:

https://i.imgur.com/CJpMUUC.jpeg

Sadly, that only really works for Diana waaaaay back in the mid Post-Crisis era because that's where the feat is from. I have no idea how she stacks up now, skillwise. I would imagine that her skill with weapons is actually BETTER than her skill with hand to hand, due to modern Wonder Woman's more weapon-based fighting.

Back then i would bet in a fight with weapons on her against Batman, and skill with powers is a bit different than without anyway, but nowadays no shot.

I guess it's worth asking - Diana hit anyone's pressure points since the reboot? Get depowered and have to fight? Stuff like that?

There were some skill feats now and then, but let me put it like this most of her skill development after flashpoint in comparison to post-crisis reminds a bit on Cassandra Cain's, or worse but to be fair in the later rebirth era, where it at times almost seemed like Wonder Woman forgot that she is a skilled martial artist, she was going a bit crazy in other regards, like with blitzing the at that point also far more impressive than earlier Superman over an inter-planetary range:



or with pulling the sun with her lasso, and even mentioning that it's not the first time:



and that was after she had already lost her piercing weapon weakness and developed more magical powers with and without her weapons, and in the same time were her future-self literally created a universe, and she basically challenged the saiyan race for who has the most overpowered super-transformations and won that contest.

[Sharpandpointies]

Will need to look at this later - work firewall is stopping me.

[Rightoya]

I think at this point even if Superman edges him out in any particular stats (and that is a big of for striking power and speed, IMO)it doesn't seem enough to overwhelm Garou and put him down before he adapts. You'd need to go higher up the totem pole to make it stick.

Superman is probably still stronger by a notable degree, this feat as example is more impressive than it looks with the context, and post-crisis Superman should be stronger than Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter by an unknown degree:



it seems Garou reaches the lower end of Superman's speed if we assume that his upgrades by an apparently unknown degree were big enough, and we have not even talked about perception speed or reactions so far, which should be lightspeed to faster than light for post-crisis Superman.

and if Garou did not tank a serious punch of Saitama or anything, i seriously doubt he holds a candle to post-crisis Superman's best durability feats, so what has Garou tanked lately?

She doesn't have the feats to back it up without powers. And besides, Batman can't hold a candle to Garou for skill either.

With weapons and powers that becomes a very different ballgame in post-crisis, and about which apparently approaching Karate Kid's martial arts skill feats of Garou that are not just based on his adapting or to a notable degree on his stats are we even talking?

[Captain Morgan]

What's to say the attack in question is actually on Par with the actual phenomenon in question though? I mean, I know the attack is named after it, but that doesn't mean it is to scale with the actual thing, just that it can potentially bust a planet.



If they trade hands then yes, Garou will have a significant advantage, but Superman has options to keep away from Garou and nailing him with heat vision(which has shown capable of harming those as tough as Kal).

Harm, yes. Kill, no. Bloodlusted Clark drilled a hole through Diana down to the bone with point blank application, but he didn't punch all the way through her or take her out with it alone. Superboy Prime, by contrast, has blasted straight through Clark's shoulder with his heat vision. Garou meanwhile has fought just fine with a hole punched through him, and a wide angle application won't slow him down either. Clark would need to lobotomize him with a concentrated beam, and Garou is too quick a target for that even if he only starts out half as fast as Clark.

There is also the fact that the heat vision drains Clark's solar reserves quicker than his other powers, potentially leaving him vulnerable to counter attack if he overuses it. That is a bad position if Garou survives and continues to grow.

[big_adventure]

Superman is probably still stronger by a notable degree, this feat as example is more impressive than it looks with the context, and post-crisis Superman should be stronger than Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter by an unknown degree:



it seems Garou reaches the lower end of Superman's speed if we assume that his upgrades by an apparently unknown degree were big enough, and we have not even talked about perception speed or reactions so far, which should be lightspeed to faster than light for post-crisis Superman.

and if Garou did not tank a serious punch of Saitama or anything, i seriously doubt he holds a candle to post-crisis Superman's best durability feats, so what has Garou tanked lately?



With weapons and powers that becomes a very different ballgame in post-crisis, and about which apparently approaching Karate Kid's martial arts skill feats of Garou that are not just based on his adapting or to a notable degree on his stats are we even talking?

Post-crisis Superman has sublight reflex speed. "Significant fraction of lightspeed" reflexes is how we generally talk about the DC flying brick combo platter heroes or the non-FTL Flashes. This is mod ruled here on the board, so it's not something to argue, really.

For Garou, I don't think you've read either the manga or what Nik has written.

The scene where Garou shows, at worst, given Nik's very significant lowballing, "significant fraction of lightspeed" reactions was back a couple of upgrades ago, at a time when Garou, using everything he had, was an absolute joke to Saitama. Saitama could still completely casually overwhelm Garou even after more than one upgrade after those scenes. After a couple of upgrades, Garou then shows that he can equal Saitama's base-ish speed, matching him blow-for-blow in a barrage of Casual Normal Punches.

That puts him at the very least up at post-crisis Superman's level, and probably beyond it. And this is before considering the massive skill edge. It's adorable that Clark has heat vision. Garou has Bang's technique to send it back at him, or can just use his insanely higher skill with body reading combined with AT LEAST equivalent speed to get the hell out of the way. Or, just, you know, run up, unleash Consecutive Normal Punches and turn Kal into salsa. Or unleash some energy attacks at the same speed level that are, at the very least, massively more powerful than an attack that ripped holes between dimensions and that massively affected the other side of the planet, raising a landmass in the middle of the ocean.

Garou is simply out of Post-Crisis Clark's league now.

[Captain Morgan]

I wouldn't go as far as to say Garou will be making Clark into chunky salsa, but I do think he's at least close enough to hang, and close enough to hang means Garou will adapt and probably win. He's in the right ball park across the board for stats, but outclasses Clark so much for skill that if he approaches parity Clark won't touch him.

Superman is probably still stronger by a notable degree, this feat as example is more impressive than it looks with the context, and post-crisis Superman should be stronger than Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter by an unknown degree:

Ah, the Obsidian Age. The Morrison/Waid/Kelly run was my favorite Justice League stories of all time. Yes, that's basically Clark's top end for strength. Some of have argued it is SMvsFL as usually the JLA team winds up mucking about with the moon instead, but usually those cases involve even more extreme circumstances like using the moon as a yo-yo through Earth's atmosphere. Still, the global distortions Garou unleashed is approaching that point, and he's gone on to eclipse that substantially.

it seems Garou reaches the lower end of Superman's speed if we assume that his upgrades by an apparently unknown degree were big enough, and we have not even talked about perception speed or reactions so far, which should be lightspeed to faster than light for post-crisis Superman.

Sorry, when were we ever talking about anything but perception or reaction speed? Garou's feat is him straight up fighting and making complex maneuvers at those speeds. That is as clean a reflex feat as they come.

and if Garou did not tank a serious punch of Saitama or anything, i seriously doubt he holds a candle to post-crisis Superman's best durability feats, so what has Garou tanked lately?

The Consecutive Normal Punch combo Saitama hit Garou with was enough to completely overwhelm and reverse Garou's momentum during that global distortion charge we keep talking about. Saitama basically air juggled him all the way back through the planet's core, to the planet's surface, and then punched him through two large mountains with the last hit in the combo. Just based off the distances and collateral effects, that is high tier class 100 durability, and Garou stood up and kept fighting after this. Then he got his most recent upgrade.

Clark's durability might be his most significant edge, but tanking a blitz like that is why I doubt Clark can put Garou down with "merely" post crisis krptonian stats.

With weapons and powers that becomes a very different ballgame in post-crisis, and about which apparently approaching Karate Kid's martial arts skill feats of Garou that are not just based on his adapting or to a notable degree on his stats are we even talking?

Well everything Sharp mentioned, for example. All of that was done before Garou's body began mutating, which is referred to as monsterization in the story. Things like bare hand deflecting chain guy fire that pulps trees to protect a building behind him. By the words of Tanktop Master, a class 50 or so brick early Garou beat down:

"His strength was different [than a monsters.} It was technique. He dodged and parried and blocked all my attacks... His counterattacks and throws anticipated my moves and his techniques returned my own strength twofold. He also incapacitated physical functions with thrusts targeting joints and vital spots. "

Your average monster simply looses its strength in a rampage. But he was different. He possess special techniques for breaking people."

Garou beats the hell out of multiple high end bricks and displays outright super speed while he's still "only human." He eventually begins to mutate, but he spent a long time wracking up feats before then. And his skill didn't stagnate when his body became superhuman, either. He continues to hone and perfect his unique style of martial arts.

He's a shonen manga martial arts genius. You simply don't see people without powers performing at that level in Marvel and DC.

[Cody]

He's a shonen manga martial arts genius. You simply don't see people without powers performing at that level in Marvel and DC.

Well, not anymore anyway.

[Sharpandpointies]

I agree that the best of the best in DC are more skilled in sheer martial arts, but the fight you are probably thinking on at least also involved a pistol that got fired as Wonder Woman was distracted, and she didn't truly took any kind of beating and even her clothes were damaged before already.

Okay, I've gone back and read through the stuff, and you're right. She does pretty well against a group of normals armed mostly with bats and blades (and one pistol).

However, later on in the same issue she goes up against another mob of people. This time she has a sword and an axe, and is all-too-happy to use them. Even so, someone smacks her on the back of the head, and in that page it's easy to see that her body is cut in a number of places - she has been taking hits through that fight.

This is beneath what Batman does in the same situation, when Bruce is drugged, starved, and dehydrated (The Cult) - he simply obliterates some twenty or so armed (knives, bats, pipes, axes) cultists, some of whom also have firearms, with such speed that none of them get any shots off, and even the guys are literally midway through trying to stab Jason Todd while holding him down have no chance to finish their attacks. Basically the entire fight is a whirlwind of Bruce whaling on people while Todd stands there, utterly dumbstruck. Bruce, mind, operating on the dregs of his strength and stamina, somewhat delirious, and without any weapons of his own.

But I admit Diana does better than I remembered in the first fight. In this case, I would put her between Bruce and Old School Jason Todd, given how they did against a mob and how she did.

[Captain Morgan]

Well, not anymore anyway.

Yeah, I almost said "outside of people named Val Amor" but figured at this point it was just assumed.

[Cody]

Yeah, I almost said "outside of people named Val Amor" but figured at this point it was just assumed.

Don't forget about Mantis

[big_adventure]

Don't forget about Mantis

Mantis isn't anywhere close to Garou in skill.