Cosmic Awakened Fear Garou VS Post Crisis Superman

[big_adventure]

I think that's underselling Rebirth a bit. He wasn't "running pretty low,," he was on the last dregs of power to the extent he couldn't even fly. And arguably his best feat is breaking chains used to tow stars around. Rebirth Superman also does things like chills on exploding planets without getting his hair mussed.

Saitama himself will probably be in that ball park once we confirm the gama burst didn't hurt him, but I don't think Garou is there yet. Or at the very least I don't see Garou withstanding bloodlusted Rebirth Clark's attacks long enough to adapt.. But give them another 3 chapters and who knows?

Fair enough, I don't pretend to be an expert on Rebirth, I have read a tiny bit and mostly just followed the debates here on the board.

I don't think I've seen anywhere that he's really got the speed to dominate Garou like that though, does he? He may - I'm not saying that he doesn't, just that I haven't seen it presented like that.

[Captain Morgan]

Fair enough, I don't pretend to be an expert on Rebirth, I have read a tiny bit and mostly just followed the debates here on the board.

I don't think I've seen anywhere that he's really got the speed to dominate Garou like that though, does he? He may - I'm not saying that he doesn't, just that I haven't seen it presented like that.

No, to my knowledge he's about as fast as post crisis was. So theoretically, if Garou is fast enough to dodge out the gate he could make a fight of it. I'm just not sure Garou is that fast. My read right now is any of the versions of Clark being discussed are probably fast enough to land the first blow-- Garou often winds up soaking the first hit against a new opponent who can push his limits, and he may be somewhat slower than 90% light out the gate.

The difference to me is that Rebirth's hit is strong enough to ragdoll Garou and allow Clark to just keep laying into him without a chance to respond. Where as a post crisis punch could be bounced back from and even a blitz at that DPS level should be within Garou's margins to withstand and adapt to.

As another point of reference, Gladiator probably hits less hard than Rebirth Clark but is faster, so I imagine he'd achieve a similar result in a different way.

[Rightoya]

Post-crisis Superman has sublight reflex speed. "Significant fraction of lightspeed" reflexes is how we generally talk about the DC flying brick combo platter heroes or the non-FTL Flashes. This is mod ruled here on the board, so it's not something to argue, really.

So are we supossed to assume Wonder Woman, Green Lanterns, and several others in Superman's ballpark have all better reflexes than Superman in post-crisis, or are we supposed to ignore several feats of several different character, of which quite a few seem more reliable than Garou's best speed feats?

For Garou, I don't think you've read either the manga or what Nik has written.

I have read the manga to a point and plan to continue it, and have read anything Nik Hasta wrote.

The scene where Garou shows, at worst, given Nik's very significant lowballing, "significant fraction of lightspeed" reactions was back a couple of upgrades ago

This was the in his own words something of a lowball estimation:

Like even if you do what I think is still something of a lowball like saying 500 attacks and they move on average 100 metres per attack, you still come out at like 13% light speed.

That is not nearly enough to keep up with post-crisis Superman, except it is also mod-ruled that we lowball post-crisis Superman to even just 13% of the speed of light.

, at a time when Garou, using everything he had, was an absolute joke to Saitama. Saitama could still completely casually overwhelm Garou even after more than one upgrade after those scenes. After a couple of upgrades, Garou then shows that he can equal Saitama's base-ish speed, matching him blow-for-blow in a barrage of Casual Normal Punches.

Someone half as fast as someone would be an absolute joke because that is already a bigger speed difference than you have between average humans and world class athletes, and doubling 13% is still just 26%, and just if we double that speed again we are in post-crisis Superman's low end of around half the speed of light.

That puts him at the very least up at post-crisis Superman's level, and probably beyond it.

Most certainly not beyond it.

And this is before considering the massive skill edge. It's adorable that Clark has heat vision. Garou has Bang's technique to send it back at him, or can just use his insanely higher skill with body reading combined with AT LEAST equivalent speed to get the hell out of the way.

We already had the discussion about Wonder Woman's significant skill edge, and then there are the weapons to make up for the bigger skill gap to Garou and the bracelets to deflect heat vision, so would you also say that post-crisis Wonder Woman was simply out of post-crisis Superman's league?

Or, just, you know, run up, unleash Consecutive Normal Punches and turn Kal into salsa. Or unleash some energy attacks at the same speed level that are, at the very least, massively more powerful than an attack that ripped holes between dimensions and that massively affected the other side of the planet, raising a landmass in the middle of the ocean.

How are we supposed to estimate the power of ripping holes between dimensions? Superman and his peers have also several weird or esoteric feats, and being at least 34% of stopping the planet earth from getting chucked out of the sun's orbit as example should be definitively not weaker than affecting the other side of the planet and raising land masses in the ocean.

Garou is simply out of Post-Crisis Clark's league now.

I very much doubt that, except Garou had some more crazy feats nobody has brought up so far?

[Rightoya]

I wouldn't go as far as to say Garou will be making Clark into chunky salsa, but I do think he's at least close enough to hang, and close enough to hang means Garou will adapt and probably win. He's in the right ball park across the board for stats, but outclasses Clark so much for skill that if he approaches parity Clark won't touch him.

I personally am still not convinced about Garou winning, but that sounds at least a billion times more believable than him simply being out of post-crisis Superman's league with the feats of Garou that got brought up in this thread so far.

Ah, the Obsidian Age. The Morrison/Waid/Kelly run was my favorite Justice League stories of all time. Yes, that's basically Clark's top end for strength. Some of have argued it is SMvsFL as usually the JLA team winds up mucking about with the moon instead, but usually those cases involve even more extreme circumstances like using the moon as a yo-yo through Earth's atmosphere. Still, the global distortions Garou unleashed is approaching that point, and he's gone on to eclipse that substantially.

How is he gone on eclipsing that substantially?

Sorry, when were we ever talking about anything but perception or reaction speed? Garou's feat is him straight up fighting and making complex maneuvers at those speeds. That is as clean a reflex feat as they come.

We were not truly talking about that so far, but Superman and several of his peers in post-crisis had typically better reflexes and reactions than the speed they moved with, and i would assume this is still not the case with Garou?

The Consecutive Normal Punch combo Saitama hit Garou with was enough to completely overwhelm and reverse Garou's momentum during that global distortion charge we keep talking about. Saitama basically air juggled him all the way back through the planet's core, to the planet's surface, and then punched him through two large mountains with the last hit in the combo. Just based off the distances and collateral effects, that is high tier class 100 durability, and Garou stood up and kept fighting after this. Then he got his most recent upgrade.

Not too shabby, but that should be below post-crisis Superman's durability, except there is another odd mod-ruling.

Clark's durability might be his most significant edge, but tanking a blitz like that is why I doubt Clark can put Garou down with "merely" post crisis krptonian stats.

This makes not much sense to me, post-crisis Superman who should be still more durable can most certainly get put down with his own post-crisis kryptonian stats.

Well everything Sharp mentioned, for example. All of that was done before Garou's body began mutating, which is referred to as monsterization in the story. Things like bare hand deflecting chain guy fire that pulps trees to protect a building behind him. By the words of Tanktop Master, a class 50 or so brick early Garou beat down:

Garou beats the hell out of multiple high end bricks and displays outright super speed while he's still "only human." He eventually begins to mutate, but he spent a long time wracking up feats before then. And his skill didn't stagnate when his body became superhuman, either. He continues to hone and perfect his unique style of martial arts.

I must have either missed or forgotten that they put that much light on his true skill, my apologies, i got to admit his skill level should be above Batman's.

He's a shonen manga martial arts genius. You simply don't see people without powers performing at that level in Marvel and DC.

I don't think that is a good ecomparison, because Shonen manga martial arts is often very questionable, and in many cases wouldn't even work without certain powers.

Okay, I've gone back and read through the stuff, and you're right. She does pretty well against a group of normals armed mostly with bats and blades (and one pistol).

However, later on in the same issue she goes up against another mob of people. This time she has a sword and an axe, and is all-too-happy to use them. Even so, someone smacks her on the back of the head, and in that page it's easy to see that her body is cut in a number of places - she has been taking hits through that fight.

This is beneath what Batman does in the same situation, when Bruce is drugged, starved, and dehydrated (The Cult) - he simply obliterates some twenty or so armed (knives, bats, pipes, axes) cultists, some of whom also have firearms, with such speed that none of them get any shots off, and even the guys are literally midway through trying to stab Jason Todd while holding him down have no chance to finish their attacks. Basically the entire fight is a whirlwind of Bruce whaling on people while Todd stands there, utterly dumbstruck. Bruce, mind, operating on the dregs of his strength and stamina, somewhat delirious, and without any weapons of his own.

But I admit Diana does better than I remembered in the first fight. In this case, I would put her between Bruce and Old School Jason Todd, given how they did against a mob and how she did.

Yeah i agree with that estimation, Batman should be definitively more skilled without weapons or powers, but i want to bring up a certain disadvantage for Wonder Woman in the comparisons without powers. She is used to having powers and needs to make an on the fly drastic change of mind about how to move, defend, attack, and so on in these scenarios, and also couldn't do things like this anymore:



because adapting like that requires powers like super-senses.

[Cody]

Because I think that Post Crisis Clark is comparable but loses to Garou and Saitama is stronger than both of them.

Post Crisis Clark << Garou <<<<Saitama < Nu Clark.

I also don't think Rebirth Clark is drastically more powerful than Nu. Their feats feel roughly consistent with each other when you consider the effort associated with each. The star chain feat is the only thing pushing past what Nu Clark could plausibly do, and Rebirth Clark has nothing else I'm aware of on that level himself. Rebirth is a composite of Nu and Post Crisis, and Nu does the heavy lifting on that composite. (You could argue post cris was the more durable half, though.)

Well the thing that makes me feel Rebirth Superman significantly stronger than NU Supes is when he shattered a planet just by jumping off of it while on the last dredges of his power. That, to me, is something I can only see NU Supes doing while at his peak.

But you seem to be our current DC expert so I'd like to hear your opinion on that.

[Cody]

No, to my knowledge he's about as fast as post crisis was. So theoretically, if Garou is fast enough to dodge out the gate he could make a fight of it. I'm just not sure Garou is that fast. My read right now is any of the versions of Clark being discussed are probably fast enough to land the first blow-- Garou often winds up soaking the first hit against a new opponent who can push his limits, and he may be somewhat slower than 90% light out the gate.

The difference to me is that Rebirth's hit is strong enough to ragdoll Garou and allow Clark to just keep laying into him without a chance to respond. Where as a post crisis punch could be bounced back from and even a blitz at that DPS level should be within Garou's margins to withstand and adapt to.

As another point of reference, Gladiator probably hits less hard than Rebirth Clark but is faster, so I imagine he'd achieve a similar result in a different way.

Wouldn't Rebirth Supes be more at light speed reactions now, based on this:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qi...a661f852926-lq

[big_adventure]

So are we supossed to assume Wonder Woman, Green Lanterns, and several others in Superman's ballpark have all better reflexes than Superman in post-crisis, or are we supposed to ignore several feats of several different character, of which quite a few seem more reliable than Garou's best speed feats?



I have read the manga to a point and plan to continue it, and have read anything Nik Hasta wrote.



This was the in his own words something of a lowball estimation:



That is not nearly enough to keep up with post-crisis Superman, except it is also mod-ruled that we lowball post-crisis Superman to even just 13% of the speed of light.



Someone half as fast as someone would be an absolute joke because that is already a bigger speed difference than you have between average humans and world class athletes, and doubling 13% is still just 26%, and just if we double that speed again we are in post-crisis Superman's low end of around half the speed of light.



Most certainly not beyond it.



We already had the discussion about Wonder Woman's significant skill edge, and then there are the weapons to make up for the bigger skill gap to Garou and the bracelets to deflect heat vision, so would you also say that post-crisis Wonder Woman was simply out of post-crisis Superman's league?



How are we supposed to estimate the power of ripping holes between dimensions? Superman and his peers have also several weird or esoteric feats, and being at least 34% of stopping the planet earth from getting chucked out of the sun's orbit as example should be definitively not weaker than affecting the other side of the planet and raising land masses in the ocean.



I very much doubt that, except Garou had some more crazy feats nobody has brought up so far?

For the other bricks you mention - no, most of them are at or just below Superman's level. But Post-Crisis DC had dozens of people running around with high-end class 100 strength and near-light reflexes and flight. WW, MM, Black Adam, Shazam, Kryptonians, etc. All of them are near-light in reaction time.

For the Garou-related stuff...

Where are you coming up with your ridiculous percentages? We're not saying that he went from 13% to 26%. He jumped MUCH more than that.

As presented: in the one place we have a timer, if we use the lowest of lowballs (Nik's very lowballed calcs), Garou is reacting at least at 13% light.

Several frames later, he's ALREADY massively beyond this.

That level of Garou was basically a statue to Saitama, who utterly toys with him without even whipping out a "technique" like "consecutive normal punches."

Garou then gets one of his massive upgrades, and, using his absolutely ludicrous techniques (Bang, for example, is a normal old man who can defend against class 100 level attacks at some fraction of lightspeed with his techniques - Garou copied his technique and improved upon it mid-fight), can kind of keep up with a still-not-trying Saitama. So again, massive, huge upgrade there, kinda with Saitama's "I really am toying with you" level of reflexes.

Saitama goes a bit more serious, Garou is again a statue.

Garou upgrades again. Goes full hog on Saitama.

Saitama goes "consecutive normal punches" and humiliates Garou AGAIN in speed.

Garou upgrades again. He activates "Saitama Mode" and then uses consecutive normal punches and now, finally, goes blow-for-blow with a kinda trying Saitama.

In that period of time, he's upgraded explicitly 3 times and unlocked a new battle mode, getting significantly faster each time. Even if you start out at 13% (which, again, is a lowball), he's going to be around lightspeed reflexes by the end of that, just based on what we see on panel, in a few issues you can read online.

So, Garou is faster than Post Crisis Superman. And he hits at least as hard, but, based on what we see on panel, he hits significantly harder, as Saitama, who would know such things, says that his last attack would destroy the planet if it just grazed it, hence Saitama jumping away from the planet to get hit, rather than face-tanking it while standing on the planet like he's done with so many other attacks from Garou. That's massively beyond post-crisis Clark, who was never, ever a planet-buster. Period.

[Captain Morgan]

Wouldn't Rebirth Supes be more at light speed reactions now, based on this:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qi...a661f852926-lq

I can't see why being 10% faster (90% to 100) would more or break being able to perform that feat? To move the needle you'd need something with light as a pretty explicit benchmark. We usually used Jay Garrick as the measuring stick post crisis because he had a very clearly defined relationship with the lightspeed barrier.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I don't think that I would call Bang a normal old man, since he definitely has significantly superhuman stats, even though his (and Garou's) skills let him give and deflect damage way out of his base weight class.

And honestly, rebuilding the moon piece by piece during a normal conversation seems like it would be a stretch of a speed feat for the Flash when he's in "Superman is a statue to me while I repeatedly circumnavigate the world on foot" mode, so unless he's got consistent feats on that level or was being somehow boosted (possibly by the Flash) it might be a bit of a major outlier.

[Captain Morgan]

How is he gone on eclipsing that substantially?s.

Again, this comes down to the fact that Garou was getting chumped by Saitama when Garou was "only" dishing out the global distortion level stuff. He then upgrades and is able to match Saitama blow for blow, at least at Saitama's current level of exertion. There's a marked increase in his performance for strength, speed, and durability there. And that's also the point Garou busts out brand new energy powers that Saitama thinks pose a credible threat to the planet by even grazing the surface.

We were not truly talking about that so far, but Superman and several of his peers in post-crisis had typically better reflexes and reactions than the speed they moved with, and i would assume this is still not the case with Garou?

You've lost me here. On rumbles we generally consider two types of speed: travel and combat speed, and we only really care about combat. Superman and many of his peers can travel at FTL speeds in space but that doesn't usually matter for fights. Their reflex speeds are notably lower than this. When we say Superman blitzes at 90% light, that's an aggregate of his movement, his reactions, and his reflexes to pull off distinct actions at those speeds. As I alluded to earlier, a big part of how we settled on the 90% light benchmark was how he performed in foot races against Jay Garrick, because running through physical terrain is more relevant to combat speed than flying through space.

Garou's feat isn't flying through space. Dude couldn't even fly at that point. The travel he's doing is simply leaping from rock to rock mid-air while fighting someone else doing the same. That's even more impressive than running at those speeds, because it requires more coordination and a larger margin of error for his reflexes to track the every shifting environment around him.

You can argue how close to Superman's combat speed this is. But if you try and say Garou isn't displaying reflex or reaction time here... I can't follow it. If we go that direction, then I'd point out Superman has never actually had a fight at these explicit speeds. We extrapolate that he can based on doing things like barely keeping up with Jay Garrick approaching light in a foot race, or being able to watch photons in motion, or reading multiple encyclopedias in the time it would take someone else to read a page of a novel. But that's us assuming if he can move his feet or his eyes or brain at those speeds, he should be able to throw a bunch of punches at those speeds as well.

If you try and split those into completely different categories of speed, then Clark suddenly starts looking at lot worse in a super speed fight and Garou looks a lot better.

Not too shabby, but that should be below post-crisis Superman's durability, except there is another odd mod-ruling.

Did you mean UNLESS there is another odd ruling? Trying to make sure I understand your meaning.

This makes not much sense to me, post-crisis Superman who should be still more durable can most certainly get put down with his own post-crisis kryptonian stats.

Sure, with repeated attacks. I don't expect Clark to be one shotting himself barring a very lucky hit. My point isn't that Superman could never put down Garou. I just don't think he will have sufficient opportunity to do so before Garou counters. (It is also worth keeping that what little disadvantage Garou has for raw durability is more than made up for by damage soak. Dude continues to grow stronger and faster while having all of his flesh charred and a hole punched through his torso. Like, you can see daylight out the other side of his body type holes.

0094-031.jpg
0094-036.jpg
0094-037.jpg

I must have either missed or forgotten that they put that much light on his true skill, my apologies, i got to admit his skill level should be above Batman's.

Apology and concession appreciated.

I don't think that is a good ecomparison, because Shonen manga martial arts is often very questionable, and in many cases wouldn't even work without certain powers.

I agree it is apples and oranges. Dragon Ball being the poster child for martial arts being conflated with shooting bigger fireballs. Still, the reason people point to Karate Kid is because, like Garou, he's not doing these things through ki or qi or superhuman heritage. It is just being implausibly, impossibly good at karate.

It cuts the other way too. For all we consider Batman super skilled, his comic book peak human strength and speed is flat-out super human for the real world. So any assessment of how good he is at martial arts is tempered by that.

Yeah i agree with that estimation, Batman should be definitively more skilled without weapons or powers, but i want to bring up a certain disadvantage for Wonder Woman in the comparisons without powers. She is used to having powers and needs to make an on the fly drastic change of mind about how to move, defend, attack, and so on in these scenarios, and also couldn't do things like this anymore:
because adapting like that requires powers like super-sense

Agreed! Super powers, especially flight, are huge game changers for hand to hand combat.

[Captain Morgan]

I don't think that I would call Bang a normal old man, since he definitely has significantly superhuman stats, even though his (and Garou's) skills let him give and deflect damage way out of his base weight class.

And honestly, rebuilding the moon piece by piece during a normal conversation seems like it would be a stretch of a speed feat for the Flash when he's in "Superman is a statue to me while I repeatedly circumnavigate the world on foot" mode, so unless he's got consistent feats on that level or was being somehow boosted (possibly by the Flash) it might be a bit of a major outlier.

I think it raises more questions of "how did he do that" for me, rather than how fast. Like, is he heat vision welding every shattered fragment back together?

[Captain Morgan]

Also, this is crossing continuities, but it is a decent illustration of how I see Garou handling Superman even if he has a speed advantage. 0089-012.jpg0089-013.jpg

[Nik Hasta]

Wouldn't Rebirth Supes be more at light speed reactions now, based on this:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qi...a661f852926-lq

Hmm... you're tempting me to try and ballpark this even though it would be veeery rough.

Though my job is hella boring.

Hmm...

Okay, so there's a lot going on here and we don't really have a lot of information. Based on timing myself reciting the dialogue, the timeframe for this is like 20 seconds or so. We also don't know, based on this scan, how far away the pieces of the moon were from where Clark decides to rebuild it or exactly how many pieces there are and how many he's moving per trip.

To lowball, let's assume the pieces are all in the space just outside the panel as we see it.

The diameter of the moon is 3,474.8 KM and, from its completed state, it's /very/ roughly half that distance again from the moon's surface to the edges of the panel. The moon is not dead centre so the bottom of the panel is further away but the sides are closer so I'm calling it an even spread just for ease of calculation. Clark is obviously moving a great many pieces of moon (likely hundreds or thousands if he's being super completionist about this but we're going to be lowballing) into position from outside the panel to the centre and building it from the middle outwards.

So, let's be super conservative and say it's like 100 trips (back and forth) to get all the bits of the moon to the centre of the panel and out again. As he would be starting from the centre of his moon-building zone and, as discussed, we're assuming it's about the distance of the radius of the moon to get to the edge of the panel from where the surface will be it means he's travelling the 2*[the radius of the moon (sic: the diameter of the moon)] each way per trip. So 2*3,474.8 KM[moon diameter] = 1 trip.

Therefore; 6,949.6 KM [1 trip] * 100 = 694,960 KM in 20 seconds = 34,748 KM/s which is 11% lightspeed.

Now, this is super rough obviously and I am, as ever, being very conservative on my calculations and there is a ton of information that we don't have. There's an immense amount of latitude for your reading of this feat in terms of how you think Superman did this.

For example, if you think he's picking up every tiny pebble, one at a time, and carrying them back by hand, then you could easily calc this out as faster than light speed. Alternatively, he might not even be carrying stuff back, he might be flying out and shoving the rocks back and letting the laws of physics do the lifting so his total travel distance might be much lower than going in and out over and over.

As Morgan also noted, we don't know how he's assembling them into a moon. Is he heat visioning them together? Is he physically mashing rocks together? Or is he just pushing them into place and letting gravity start to do it's thing? How long does he spend doing that rather than moving around?

So... yeah, I'd be inclined to call it a sub-light feat based on the above calculation but it's a very complex feat with not a lot of information included so it's hard to draw any really solid conclusions from it.

[Sharpandpointies]

You can argue how close to Superman's combat speed this is. But if you try and say Garou isn't displaying reflex or reaction time here... I can't follow it. If we go that direction, then I'd point out Superman has never actually had a fight at these explicit speeds. We extrapolate that he can based on doing things like barely keeping up with Jay Garrick approaching light in a foot race, or being able to watch photons in motion, or reading multiple encyclopedias in the time it would take someone else to read a page of a novel. But that's us assuming if he can move his feet or his eyes or brain at those speeds, he should be able to throw a bunch of punches at those speeds as well.

If you try and split those into completely different categories of speed, then Clark suddenly starts looking at lot worse in a super speed fight and Garou looks a lot better.

But we are not going there. O_o

I know you're saying the opposite, but it is worth noting this simply because of the headaches we've had through the years and, yes, recently, with new posters flying in here to tell us how we've been doing everything wrong forever and Superman shouldn't have any combat speed at all, because doing complicated stuff at superspeed isn't the same as doing less complicated stuff (punching faces) at superspeed. And then usually talking about how in the real world, being fast with one thing doesn't mean being fast with another, completely ignoring that this is about 'superspeed' not 'human skill' (I swear, the speed guitar argument was the worst EVAR).

And I don't want this conversation turning in that direction because someone picks up on the idea and sprints with it, as if with scissors. ^_^

[Nik Hasta]

I'm just going to note that I'm looking at the figure for the volume of the moon and being very tempted to try and calculate a ballpark for how much material Clark would actually have to move based on the chunks we see.

This is a bad idea but it's nonetheless tempting, we'll see how my working day progresses... >_>