Ben Reilly: Spider-Man #5 Spoilers and Review!

[Refrax5]

That'll do for me. Current "Ben" has been Spidercide since his return in Clone Conspiracy. And the real Ben remains either gone (which would be sad, but would still be better than everything Marvel have done with the character since supposedly bringing him back). Or he's still out there somewhere, waiting for a writer/editorial team that actually like him to bring him back properly.

Either way, this series has been a win/win. It's given us our first look at the real Ben Reilly since 1996. And it's fixed the hatchet job that Slott and everyone else has been a part of since Clone Conspiracy. Job done.

It's an idea that adds more stupid retcons on top of stupid retcons, makes no actual sense, effectively steals from people that actually read and supported these comics, makes Janine a victim of sexual assault again, erases Ben's second era as Spider-Man where he more or less acted like himself, and is generally you just wanting to spite other people because you're mad at Marvel.

You could just restore his mind and move on and get the exact same effect. This isn't about storytelling for you. It's about you being angry at stories you don't like and wanting to trash them, even if it makes dumb writing even dumber.

[boots]

I was more referring to the general treatment of clones and cloning in fiction.

right. i think i've managed to be exposed to works that don't tend to do that; even if a character in-universe expresses that opinion, the themes of the story contradict it. movies like moon or books like never let me go. even most of the marvel and dc examples i can think of tend to do so.

[Matt Rat]

It's an idea that adds more stupid retcons on top of stupid retcons, makes no actual sense

Makes perfect sense...and I think you know it does, but you just want to be contrarian.

effectively steals from people that actually read and supported these comics

And? Pretty sure there's a lot of Harry Osborn fans who weren't happy Spencer undid a decades worth of comics with the Kindred stuff and put him back in the grave.

erases Ben's second era as Spider-Man where he more or less acted like himself

Ben was a total bitch during Beyond, nerfed and jobbed out constantly.

You could just restore his mind and move on and get the exact same effect

Where's the fun, or imagination, in that? And what prevents his mind from wandering eslewhere again? If it happened a third time, you'd associate Ben as a deeply troubled individual and his early characterization was fundamentally not about that. It fits Spidercide a lot better. You just don't want to accept this because for some reason you see value in Ben being around, when it's clear Marvel don't want him, so make him someone else, a new toy they can play off with oodles of plot potential. Don't make Ben something he is'nt, and don't tarnish his legacy further.

[Vworp Vworp]

It's an idea that adds more stupid retcons on top of stupid retcons, makes no actual sense, effectively steals from people that actually read and supported these comics makes Janine a victim of sexual assault again, erases Ben's second era as Spider-Man where he more or less acted like himself, and is generally you just wanting to spite other people because you're mad at Marvel.

How is it spite to want to see a favourite character treated as the character that made them your favourite in the first place? Your opinion seems to be that, simply because this character was called Ben, it absolutely, 100% HAS to have always been Ben - regardless of how poorly the character has been written or treated. Even to such a degree that when a writer who obviously genuinely loves the character gives us an easy out, it seems like you'd still rather accept an awful, evil, damaged, unrecognisable Ben, rather than just writing off the last few years as a string of horrible writing choices made by people that seem to legitimately hate the character.

As for Janine (and indeed all of the events in Spidercide's life since CC), again DeMatteis's story still gives us that out. It's not a huge stretch to suggest when Spidercide saved Ben they shared a consciousness and Spidercide got all of Ben's memories. So this whole time, as far as Spidercide has been concerned, he was Ben. Would that justify/diminish the idea of Janine being assaulted? That's something the story would have to address.

You could just restore his mind and move on and get the exact same effect. This isn't about storytelling for you. It's about you being angry at stories you don't like...

So... That would be about storytelling then, yes?

Seriously though, and as has already been mentioned more than once, Marvel did 'fix' Ben. And how long did that hold? Three and a half years. And it's not like he was even around much during that time. In terms of significant Ben appearances, he was basically fixed in Spider-Geddon and then immediately ruined again in Beyond. That doesn't lend itself to a whole lot of faith that fixing this Ben would make the slightest bit of difference in the long term. Or, as it turned out last time, even the short term!

Where's the fun, or imagination, in that? And what prevents his mind from wandering eslewhere again? If it happened a third time, you'd associate Ben as a deeply troubled individual and his early characterization was fundamentally not about that. It fits Spidercide a lot better. You just don't want to accept this because for some reason you see value in Ben being around, when it's clear Marvel don't want him, so make him someone else, a new toy they can play off with oodles of plot potential. Don't make Ben something he is'nt, and don't tarnish his legacy further.

This. Absolutely all of this.

[Refrax5]

How is it spite to want to see a favourite character treated as the character that made them your favourite in the first place? Your opinion seems to be that, simply because this character was called Ben, it absolutely, 100% HAS to have always been Ben - regardless of how poorly the character has been written or treated. Even to such a degree that when a writer who obviously genuinely loves the character gives us an easy out, it seems like you'd still rather accept an awful, evil, damaged, unrecognisable Ben, rather than just writing off the last few years as a string of horrible writing choices made by people that seem to legitimately hate the character.

As for Janine (and indeed all of the events in Spidercide's life since CC), again DeMatteis's story still gives us that out. It's not a huge stretch to suggest when Spidercide saved Ben they shared a consciousness and Spidercide got all of Ben's memories. So this whole time, as far as Spidercide has been concerned, he was Ben. Would that justify/diminish the idea of Janine being assaulted? That's something the story would have to address.



So... That would be about storytelling then, yes?

Seriously though, and as has already been mentioned more than once, Marvel did 'fix' Ben. And how long did that hold? Three and a half years. And it's not like he was even around much during that time. In terms of significant Ben appearances, he was basically fixed in Spider-Geddon and then immediately ruined again in Beyond. That doesn't lend itself to a whole lot of faith that fixing this Ben would make the slightest bit of difference in the long term. Or, as it turned out last time, even the short term!



This. Absolutely all of this.

You're taking a character that's already a tarnished brand and instead of doing the easiest and least problematic thing, you want to give him a more convoluted and stupid continuity than Hawkman. And I explained all the reasons it actually just hurts the character and makes no sense, but you just want to burn it down and ruin it for anyone else because you don't like it. And it's a very stupid retcon, on top of being unnecessary.

And you use the last time Ben was fixed as an example of why he shouldn't be fixed again. Ok. That means your idea is just as pointless since it wouldn't last either.

Again, you're agreeing with the guy that said Janine being sexually assaulted by Spidercide would make her more interesting and wants Kafka to violate her ethics and date Ben instead. This is the kind of person you're agreeing with on storytelling.

Anyway, this is a tiring argument. You want to take stories away regardless of how little sense it would make and how insulting it would be to anyone that invested time and money into it and I don't. You've always been super militant and unwilling to listen to any other point of view for years on here and I don't know why I'm bothering to try to reason with you.

[Matt Rat]

You've always been super militant and unwilling to listen to any other point of view for years on here and I don't know why I'm bothering to try to reason with you.

You're the one being unreasonable. You want the bad writing and cheap shock value gimmicks to 'stick' with a marred character rather than find a neat and tidy means of brushing it under the carpet by making 'Ben' a character who's history and motivations fit everything that's gone on with him since he came back.

You're also ignoring the fact that, mere months ago, Marvel robbed readers of a decade's worth of investment in a 'redeemed' Harry Osborn as well as Sins Past. In a series of convoluted plots that made no sense and ruined it for everyone else.

Marvel have pulled these stunts before, they will do so again, and there's nothing you can do about it, so cope.

Again, you're agreeing with the guy that said Janine being sexually assaulted by Spidercide would make her more interesting and wants Kafka to violate her ethics and date Ben instead. This is the kind of person you're agreeing with on storytelling. .

You sound like you're taking this all too personally. I suggest you take five.

[boots]

Marvel have pulled these stunts before

correct me if i'm wrong, but i think doc ock fits that bill.

it's essentially the doombot card.

[Refrax5]

You're the one being unreasonable. You want the bad writing and cheap shock value gimmicks to 'stick' with a marred character rather than find a neat and tidy means of brushing it under the carpet by making 'Ben' a character who's history and motivations fit everything that's gone on with him since he came back.

You're also ignoring the fact that, mere months ago, Marvel robbed readers of a decade's worth of investment in a 'redeemed' Harry Osborn as well as Sins Past. In a series of convoluted plots that made no sense and ruined it for everyone else.

Marvel have pulled these stunts before, they will do so again, and there's nothing you can do about it, so cope.



You sound like you're taking this all too personally. I suggest you take five.

I wasn't even talking to you there. You seem angrier than I am. I just said after your comments about Janine, I wasn't taking you seriously anymore. Chill out.

I also addressed the Harry Osborn thing and said it was a terrible story. Almost as bad as this idea that you obsessively push, even though it makes absolutely no sense. Ive pointed out all the problemsand plot holes it creates and you ignore it, say im just to contrarian, and tell me to cope. Not my fault you can't defend any of your points and also keep suggesting problematic and disgusting storylines for female characters. Its a bad idea. I gave you plenty of reasons why and you got in your feelings and went after me. This is why I left these boards. I'm not really interested in talking to somebody like you.

[boots]

only just read this, late to the party as usual. not even fashionably.

felt like a decent wrap up, the art really grew on me by the end. spidercide's heroic turn/redemption felt a wee bit sudden though i'm unsure if this is a plotting thing or whether the art didn't sell it as much as it could.

not much else to say that hasn't been said, so i'll just quote my fav bit from the issue:

...I've been trying so hard to be the Spider-man everyone knows...

But if I'm going to survive this

...I have to follow my own vision of Spider-man...

Not Peter Parker's

[Huntsman Spider]

only just read this, late to the party as usual. not even fashionably.

felt like a decent wrap up, the art really grew on me by the end. spidercide's heroic turn/redemption felt a wee bit sudden though i'm unsure if this is a plotting thing or whether the art didn't sell it as much as it could.

not much else to say that hasn't been said, so i'll just quote my fav bit from the issue:

...I've been trying so hard to be the Spider-man everyone knows...

But if I'm going to survive this

...I have to follow my own vision of Spider-man...

Not Peter Parker's

Pretty much this.