DCEU Justice League vs. Arrowverse Justice League

[Sharpandpointies]

I like that you put Donnie Yen in there, makes up for the Bruce Lee part. ^_^

[big_adventure]

I like that you put Donnie Yen in there, makes up for the Bruce Lee part. ^_^

I'm sure you know that I'm not a Bruce Lee believer in any way, we've been on the same side of that discussion enough times, but Donnie? Yeah, Donnie's a machine. I included ol' Bruce just to make sure nobody had the opportunity to throw in "but Bruce Lee could kick all of their asses together!" or anything, leading to 11 pages of some of us pointing out that he may have had one fight once maybe and at best the results were inconclusive, and other people claiming that he kicked 7 ton heavy bags so hard that they broke dimensional barriers. It's just good business to avoid all of that.

Once Upon a Time in Hollywood was a... film... but Brad Pitt's character KTFOing Bruce Lee was epic. I can only imagine how many Bruce Lee stans aged 5 years that day in apoplectic rage.

[Sharpandpointies]

*thumbs up*

*refrains from more because has done enough derailing of late*

[AdvanceBushido]

It seems like, from your above comments, that you've seen the show.

Here's how we work here, though I'm pretty sure you know: we use "high end feats consistent with the character's presentation."

Supergirl's presentation is as a being with massive super speed. She appears, disappears and does precise tasks with super speed frequently. She's also presented as being equal to her cousin, who ALSO has massive super speed.

Her high end feats consistent with that include reacting to a super speeding Barry, who has a crap ton of super speed, as well as many other precise actions at high speed - even as simple as changing her clothes instantly from the perspective of the viewers and people around. Since these are consistent with her presentation, they "count."

The fact that, like many speedsters, including both DCEU and CW Flash, she often doesn't exploit that speed does not, in any way, shape, or form, mean that she doesn't have that speed.

We also don't try to distinguish "what she does specifically in combat" from "what she does precisely at massive speed when not in combat" because that would be a fool's errand. Reaction speed is reaction speed, here on Rumbles. You don't have to prove it both in combat and outside of combat - you just have to prove it, and Kara (and her cousin) most certainly have. Comic Superman rarely uses his super speed in fights, but it doesn't mean that he can't. It just means that the author chose not to have him use it, mostly to make the story work.

Where's the other feats to show that it's not SvFL. As she hasn't shown to use those feats again. The feat that ypu did mention is very similar to Green Arrow and Flash interactions. Flash is more consistent with his showings and are being download played when interacting with other characters. As with Supergirl, it's the complete opposite.

[big_adventure]

Where's the other feats to show that it's not SvFL. As she hasn't shown to use those feats again. The feat that ypu did mention is very similar to Green Arrow and Flash interactions. Flash is more consistent with his showings and are being download played when interacting with other characters. As with Supergirl, it's the complete opposite.

No, it's not. She uses super speed literally all the time. Instantly changing costume and hairstyle. Vanishing out of a room instantly with a wooooosh. Reading a book instantly. She does these things frequently, throughout the show's run. And again, it's all completely consistent with her presentation, which is as someone with super speed. The fact that she doesn't always use it is down to the writing, and it's writing that is sadly present for nearly all speedsters in all media.

CW Flash has been shot and punched by normal speed people all the time, often mid-blitz. This doesn't mean that he's slow, it means that his writers are... questionable. It's a constant problem with speedsters in media - either every single bad person has super speed, or the writer is forced to make the hero forget about their speed to make it possible for the speedster to potentially lose.

As to why Flash has somewhat more consistent speed feats than Supergirl... it's his only basic power. Everything he does is based on his speed. She's got the whole DC flying brick combo pack - super strength, invulnerability, flight, speed, energy projection, stupid weakness - the works. So sometimes she's tough, sometimes she's fast, sometimes she's strong - she has other options. Despite everything Barry does being based on his speed, and the term speed being dropped dozens of times an episode, he still forgets his speed advantage frequently. In Kara's case, she's not only got those other powers to show off, she also has other characters that get involved. But none of those other characters would be useful if she just superspeeded the problem away, so she often doesn't. Easy.

As I explained above - it's consistent with her presentation.

Oliver is different - he's absolutely NOT presented as someone with super speed, so him catching a speedster's fist mid-blitz is absolutely positively SMvFL.

[AdvanceBushido]

Just because she can change her clothes really fast doesn't mean she can fight really fast. You aren't attributing those same "feats" to the opposing team.

Her strongest feats are outliners where she never uses them again.

[Sharpandpointies]

Rumbles has ALWAYS taken the position that if someone can do complex stuff at super speed they can punch the hell out of someone at super speed.

[Sharpandpointies]

In more detail, possible germane to the situations here.

1. If a character has superspeed as part of their powerset, and shows all kinds of superspeed abilities, but only rarely uses superspeed in combat or in action circumstances, on Rumbles we view that as PIS and grant that character the superspeed they have shown for combat purposes. You might think I'm just talking about Kara/Supergirl here, but I'm talking about a whole bunch of characters, including comicbook Superman.

2. If a character does NOT have any kind of superspeed in their presentation, and doesn't show any kind of superspeed in their interactions with other people, but once in a while does something like 'hits character with a lot of superspeed' or 'dodges character who has a lot of superspeed', we tend to either view that as SMvsFL or PIS. You might think I'm talking about Oliver, here, but really I'm talking about a whole bunch of characters, including people like Slade Wilson (comic book).

Basically this boils down to:

1. If CW Kara has superspeed in how she interacts with her environment, and it matches her presentation, we consider that as functional combat speed. If you can do some bunch of complex things at superspeed, you can punch someone in the face at superspeed. Similarly superstrength; if you can lift up 50 tons, you can hit someone in the face with the force of someone who can lift 50 tons.

2. If Oliver is an otherwise unenhanced martial artist who has never shown any kind of superspeed, whose best feats for speed is catching arrows, and has a feat for catching a punch from Flash, then that feat should viewed as SMvsFL.

Presentation matters.

[Anarchist]

Kara has done things like catching bullets, and being able to perceive the Flash while being mind controlled, with the latter being forced to undo said Mind Control, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to take her down.

[Zagreus]

How will the "keeps up with CW Flash" Supergirl "know she's been in a fight" against Diana? I agree on annoying, but Kara can rip Diana into quivering gibbets of flesh before Diana is aware that the bell has rung. Or garotte her with her own rope. Or just toss her into space (where she can't breathe or survive). Or use her to beat the rest of the DCEU league (except Cavill-El) to death THEN twist her head 720 degrees just to be sure.

It's not a fight, is what I'm saying.

Yes, I agree... Though Kara is so phenomenally dumb at times (tactically, compared to Diana who on screen tends to use her powers fairly well) that Diana might get a lick in.

But yeah, I can't argue.

[AdvanceBushido]

In more detail, possible germane to the situations here.

1. If a character has superspeed as part of their powerset, and shows all kinds of superspeed abilities, but only rarely uses superspeed in combat or in action circumstances, on Rumbles we view that as PIS and grant that character the superspeed they have shown for combat purposes. You might think I'm just talking about Kara/Supergirl here, but I'm talking about a whole bunch of characters, including comicbook Superman.

2. If a character does NOT have any kind of superspeed in their presentation, and doesn't show any kind of superspeed in their interactions with other people, but once in a while does something like 'hits character with a lot of superspeed' or 'dodges character who has a lot of superspeed', we tend to either view that as SMvsFL or PIS. You might think I'm talking about Oliver, here, but really I'm talking about a whole bunch of characters, including people like Slade Wilson (comic book).

Basically this boils down to:

1. If CW Kara has superspeed in how she interacts with her environment, and it matches her presentation, we consider that as functional combat speed. If you can do some bunch of complex things at superspeed, you can punch someone in the face at superspeed. Similarly superstrength; if you can lift up 50 tons, you can hit someone in the face with the force of someone who can lift 50 tons.

2. If Oliver is an otherwise unenhanced martial artist who has never shown any kind of superspeed, whose best feats for speed is catching arrows, and has a feat for catching a punch from Flash, then that feat should viewed as SMvsFL.

Presentation matters.

I agree with your assessments and I appreciate the clarification.

I agree presentation matters but I havent seen supergirl change into her uniform fast. She always had it underneath her clothes. She had the scenes like traditional Superman where she would rip off her shirt to reveal her uniform. It wasn't until season 5 that she got a nano suit. The only time I remember her typing fast (with an error) and writing fast was in season 4. She did catch two bullets as Anarchist mentioned.

But if this enough for Supergirl why not Wonder Woman?

[Sharpandpointies]

I agree with your assessments and I appreciate the clarification.

I agree presentation matters but I havent seen supergirl change into her uniform fast. She always had it underneath her clothes. She had the scenes like traditional Superman where she would rip off her shirt to reveal her uniform. It wasn't until season 5 that she got a nano suit. The only time I remember her typing fast (with an error) and writing fast was in season 4. She did catch two bullets as Anarchist mentioned.

But if this enough for Supergirl why not Wonder Woman?

I don't see anyone here saying Wonder Woman is slow. They're saying she's not as fast as Supergirl.

I haven't seen WW 1984 or whatever it's called, but I understand her best speed feat in that movie is something along the lines of 'Looks over her shoulder at a bullet that has flown past her, notices it's going to hit someone, and uses the lasso to flick it out of the air'. Between that, and her speed feats in the first movie, she's easily a bullet-timer, likely a high-end one.

However, going by what people are saying about Supergirl on this thread, she's considerably above 'high-end bullet-timer' and into 'loads of superspeed'. The prevailing opinion is that Supergirl blitzes her, which makes perfect sense if we're talking 'high-end bullet-timer versus someone with crazy levels of superspeed'.

[AdvanceBushido]

I don't see anyone here saying Wonder Woman is slow. They're saying she's not as fast as Supergirl.

My argument is that Supergirl is granted feats that are never demonstrated, outliners, and exaggerated. This is why I ask why Wonder Woman isn't treated similarly.

However, going by what people are saying about Supergirl on this thread, she's considerably above 'high-end bullet-timer' and into 'loads of superspeed'. The prevailing opinion is that Supergirl blitzes her, which makes perfect sense if we're talking 'high-end bullet-timer versus someone with crazy levels of superspeed'.

I'll clarify it so that everyone is on the same page. Since there was so much back and forth. Then, for the feats that I'll show, perhaps you or someone else can assist with the broad classification. Whether it's bullet timer or a superspeed feat.
These are the feats credited to Supergirl. Some say they stopped watching and aren't sure. While others stated/implied that these feats are displayed throughout the series even though they aren’t presented.

if Kara's million ton feats from Season 1 are consistent with the rest of the series (stopped watching around S2),

It is not presented throughout the rest of the series.

Kara can somewhat keep up with S3-era Flash.

https://youtu.be/5YXys5XgFdI

This I agree, she wasn’t on par with the Flash and he was definitely the faster of the two. This was her using her flight speed.

Supergirl's presentation is as a being with massive super speed. She appears, disappears and does precise tasks with super speed frequently. She's also presented as being equal to her cousin, who ALSO has massive super speed.

Her flight speed is the only indication of her super speed when she enters and leaves a scene, I’ve never seen her run to appear or disappear. Nor have I seen Superman do that as well. Especially during the time in which they faced of had he had feats of appear and disappearing.

Her high end feats consistent with that include reacting to a super speeding Barry,

https://youtu.be/5YXys5XgFdI

This scene was the only scene in which she reacted to Barry. If this is an example of her reacting to Barry? Then does Wonder Woman get the same feat when she reacted to Barry?

https://youtu.be/Vu93uSOq5rs
:59 – 1:01

even as simple as changing her clothes instantly from the perspective of the viewers and people around. Since these are consistent with her presentation, they "count."

She uses super speed literally all the time. Instantly changing costume and hairstyle. Vanishing out of a room instantly with a wooooosh.

https://youtu.be/i78VMUiWSIY - Scenes of Supergirl already wearing uniform underneath her clothes
https://youtu.be/Bzq8jDsRUNw - Supergirl’s Nano suit

Are these example of superspeed or bullet timer?
I can’t recall one scene where she uses superspeed to change into her uniform. She always rips her clothes away to reveal her costume underneath. Unit she got her nano suit in Season 5.

Reading a book instantly. She does these things frequently, throughout the show's run. And again, it's all completely consistent with her presentation, which is as someone with super speed.

Never seen her read book fast. Seen her type, with error, and write fast. That was in season 4 and haven’t recalled it any other time.

Kara has done things like catching bullets

https://youtu.be/jqxTrfkWsFk
https://youtu.be/K_O8Xr83vf4

Supergirl caught two bullets. So would these be an example of Superspeed or bullet timer?
My argument is that the mind control race with the Flash and her writing and typing are outliners. Because I can’t recall anywhere else, she has performed those feats. Does flight speed mean she fights fast as well? I think there is a lot of overselling going on. This proven with her fight with Reign.

[FrenchGemini]

At least one other Supergirl superspeed feat : Kara running at roughly the same pace as S2-era Barry, running at superspeed around here is an indication of combat superspeed. As I said, I stopped watching Supergirl around S2, so I'll take other people's word on Kara's other superspeed feats. Or I will look up respect threads later this afternoon (Paris time, obviously)

[AdvanceBushido]

I haven't seen WW 1984 or whatever it's called, but I understand her best speed feat in that movie is something along the lines of 'Looks over her shoulder at a bullet that has flown past her, notices it's going to hit someone, and uses the lasso to flick it out of the air'. Between that, and her speed feats in the first movie, she's easily a bullet-timer, likely a high-end one.

https://youtu.be/xKzTyQbQKc0
https://rjallain.***********/how-fas...ts-d5066193b85
A weakened Wonder Woman using lasso to block bullets. Which brings the question of how fast did she have to twirl the lasso in order to stop bullets.

https://youtu.be/DivUbGyPNO0
2:32 – 2:40

Wonder Woman lassoing lighting.
https://youtu.be/V_saYFnd8r8
0:29 – 0:37

A weakened Wonder Woman lassoing a bullet shot from gatling gun. She moves faster than what Steve can comprehend as he still moves out the way.
https://youtu.be/rWw0aFrQYMM
She lasso’s missile.

https://youtu.be/pp1F7zGKiLk
She ejects the bullet out of the chamber hits it and intentional shatters a vase to stop Maxwell.
Overall, she’s constantly shown fighting while simultaneously blocking multiple bullets from pistols to assault rifles even missiles.
Even in the Justice League movie she throws a bomb in the air before the 6 second mark but not before she fights her way to get into position to throw the bomb. She blocks multiple bullets from assault rifles. It’s not just one bullet at a time either. Even too in first movie she has a few slow motion scenes where she perceives bullets and when she blocks them.