DCEU Justice League vs. Arrowverse Justice League

[AdvanceBushido]

At least one other Supergirl superspeed feat : Kara running at roughly the same pace as S2-era Barry, running at superspeed around here is an indication of combat superspeed. As I said, I stopped watching Supergirl around S2, so I'll take other people's word on Kara's other superspeed feats. Or I will look up respect threads later this afternoon (Paris time, obviously)

I believe it's an outliner. Anytime she's with the Flash she does these feats that we never see again. Never see her run again. Even when they reversed time together she flew she didn't run. But it this is an example of superspeed. Than Wonder Woman and every other Justice League character get's there outliner feats as well.

[Sharpandpointies]

Going to say from the outset that I am semi-unfamiliar with the characters, so I'm depending on feats presented by people here. I've watched Wonder Woman's first movie, and about...what, 2 seasons of Supergirl a few years back and forgotten most of it.

So let's have a look.

https://youtu.be/xKzTyQbQKc0
https://rjallain.***********/how-fas...ts-d5066193b85
A weakened Wonder Woman using lasso to block bullets. Which brings the question of how fast did she have to twirl the lasso in order to stop bullets.

So, I've gone over this one in detail. Yep, she's weakened. Weakened to the point where she can block two bullets and get hit by the third. She does, in fact, spin the lasso to cover herself because it's clear she CANNOT block multiple bullets in this scene, so that's the limit of her speed here. Whether the spinning of the lasso into a shield is due to 'magical lasso' or purely because of how fast she is spinning it (at which point it's moving so ridiculously fast that if it's any indication of her own speed, bullets should basically hang in the air to her perceptions), the lasso shield isn't a good indication of her speed here. 'Block two bullets get hit by third' is.

Granted, again, she's weakened.

https://youtu.be/DivUbGyPNO0
2:32 – 2:40

Wonder Woman lassoing lighting.

So here, we have one of two things going on.

1. She's actually fast enough to react-to and lasso lightning;
2. It's...somehow some kind of function of her lasso.

I don't like #2, because it relies on us interpreting the scene in the absolute worst possible way. So I'm dropping that.

Let's go with #1. How long does lightning hang around? I'm asking, because she's clearly lassoing the center of a bolt, not the leader.

Wiki states:

On Earth, the lightning frequency is approximately 44 (± 5) times per second, or nearly 1.4 billion flashes per year and the average duration is 0.2 seconds made up from a number of much shorter flashes (strokes) of around 60 to 70 microseconds.

So, if she's catching something that's around for 60-70 microseconds, that's ridiculously fast. Is it beyond bullet-timing? In 70 microseconds, something traveling at mach 2 (2250 fps) travels around 0.15 feet, or a couple of inches, say. That's waaaay past bullet-timing, well-into superspeed. How far? Could work it out, but let's look at the average.

If she's catching something that's hanging around in some form for 0.2 seconds, that's waaaay different. At that point, bullet-time? Sure. Absolutely a bullet-timer could do that. Now, she doesn't just catch it, she then slings herself forward, so she's doing all of that in 0.2 seconds. But given that something travelling Mach 2 goes about 450 feet in 0.2 seconds, that's not an issue. It isn't at all a big deal for a bullet-timer to do what she does.

So what does this show for her speed? Not a whole lot, unfortunately. There's a lot of uncertainty as to how long the lightning is hanging around. If she caught the 'tip' of the stroke (which would be somewhat weird to start with, given how lightning works), there would be some discussion of 'she's ridiculously fast, into the some half-decent fraction of speed of light territory, maybe'. But it's not that.

https://youtu.be/V_saYFnd8r8
0:29 – 0:37

A weakened Wonder Woman lassoing a bullet shot from gatling gun. She moves faster than what Steve can comprehend as he still moves out the way.
https://youtu.be/rWw0aFrQYMM

Bullet timing. It's very high-end bullet-timing, but it's bullet-timing. PS - the gun isn't a gatling gun. It looks to be a .50 HMG, which is pretty impressive because of how fast those bullets travel.

She lasso’s missile.

https://youtu.be/pp1F7zGKiLk

She does so when it's just taking off, when it has just boosted the launcher and just before full thrust kicks in. We can see that clearly. Either way, it's no better than bullet time (and for my money, worse than the catching of the .50 HMG round for speed).

She ejects the bullet out of the chamber hits it and intentional shatters a vase to stop Maxwell.
Overall, she’s constantly shown fighting while simultaneously blocking multiple bullets from pistols to assault rifles even missiles.
Even in the Justice League movie she throws a bomb in the air before the 6 second mark but not before she fights her way to get into position to throw the bomb. She blocks multiple bullets from assault rifles. It’s not just one bullet at a time either. Even too in first movie she has a few slow motion scenes where she perceives bullets and when she blocks them.

I've seen that feat, and frankly I was on the side of the argument supporting that feat as a great speed feat. It's high-end bullet-timing that maybe (?) somewhat edges into superspeed catagory for my money - she's nothing more than a blur, she actually moves around while high-power rifle rounds are sailing around - but I don't feel it's much faster than someone like Cassandra Cain or Spider-man.

So, none of what I'm seeing here really convinces me she's anywhere significant past bullet-timing speed. Is it really high-end bullet-timing? Some of it certainly is. Is the scene in the Justice League movie where she stops the gunmen borderline superspeed? There's some argument, given the kind of movements she has to do to block some of the rifle rounds from hitting innocent people. On the other hand, it's somewhat possible that a person like Cassandra Cain or Spider-man could do the same (I don't mean blocking stuff, they don't have magic bracers, I mean the movement, how it appears, how far she moves to deal with bullets, etc).

Regarding her and the Flash, I recall people pointing out that there are scenes in the Justice League movie where the Flash is doing stuff, where Superman is actually starting to do stuff approaching the Flash's speed, and Wonder Woman is still basically either a statue or super...slow...moving. I feel that says something with regards to their speeds. Even the scene where she supposedly reacts to Barry helping her get her sword - nope, she's not reacting to Barry when he's running around like lightning. What she's doing is reacting to the sword suddenly reversing and heading back toward her, but in that scene the sword is moving in extreme...slow...motion...after the Flash taps it back toward her, as compared to how the Flash is shown moving like lightning while everything around him is stilled. So I don't at all buy that as 'Wonder Woman reacting to the Flash', especially since she's moving really, really slowly herself.

So, now the question is this: how fast is Kara?

Rather than arguing about how people are posting, the best way to deal with this is to ask for proof. Ie, show the feats - show them, the actual feats. There's clearly some disagreement as to whether or not certain things happened, and HOW they happened, so the onus is now on the people arguing for Kara to pony up clips to show their interpretation is correct.

I see one feat that people say shows her somewhat matching Flash.

*looks at the feat*

...I'm going to say right now, I hate this thread for forcing me to suffer through Arrow fight scenes.

Anyway, no, she's clearly not moving at the same speed as the Flash. What's clear is that she's capable of TRYING to follow him, of taking targeted shots at him with her heat vision, of following him at some ridiculous speed through a structure while making sharp turns (yes, she's flying, she's also flying in a confined space), and at least on some level TRYING to react to his movements.

Is this a good indication of her speed? *wiggles hand* It's an indication she has some level of superspeed given how quickly she's shown moving while making turns through structures (and not just plowing through walls, etc), how she can zip up beside Barry and take a direct shot at him with her heat vision, etc. How fast? Good question, since the Flash is CLEARLY still faster than her and also...is playing some kind of strategic game, here, rather than just trying to lose her.

Onto another scene, this time with her running beside Barry.

*checks the running scene*

This scene also shows some level of superspeed - she's actually RUNNING, here. So the difference between this and, for example, Wonder Woman's stuff, is that Kara is CLEARLY moving at some ridiculous superspeed, not just reacting to bullets, moving faster than the people around her, moving while normals are somewhat in slow motion, etc. She's running so fast that she disappears into the distance in an instant while the area around her and Barry is shown as nothing more than a blur. It's a better superspeed feat than anything I see from Wonder Woman so far. How fast is it? Good question. But fastER, sure.

I mean, Wonder Woman is shown running easily fast enough to catch up to a speeding truck that has had plenty of time to get up to a pretty good clip on a straight highway. That's ridiculously fast, nobody human can do that, Captain America has problems doing that, etc. But given how fast Kara and Barry were running together, they would have caught up with the truck in an eye blink and been a mile past it before people could react.

Is this an outlier? Well, it's somewhat held up by the flying around and attacking Barry as he zips through the city. Somewhat. But for myself, I'd like to see more, especially since all of this stuff happened during this storyline. And not just bullet-timing, because we KNOW Kara can catch bullets, and Diana herself is a high-end bullet-timer at the very least. But stuff beyond that.

So, more actual feats for Kara? Like, movies and clips? Preferably without Arrow fight sequences, if I can beg for that.

[FrenchGemini]

I did some research. Most of her speed feats (outside of catching bullets. Though I did find a pretty good one where she actually takes the time to react in annoyance while the bullet flies about three feet before catching it quickly, still in slow-mo perspective) from what I have seen involve crossovers with The Flash. I did find a pretty good one which seems to come from her series and doesn't involve Barry, here, saving five people at superspeed while an explosion travels a few meters, even stopping at one point. I'll keep looking.

[Anarchist]

I don't think it's an outlier situation with Supergirl. More like a "Writers aren't very creative most of the time" situation.

[Sharpandpointies]

I did some research. Most of her speed feats (outside of catching bullets. Though I did find a pretty good one where she actually takes the time to react in annoyance while the bullet flies about three feet before catching it quickly, still in slow-mo perspective) from what I have seen involve crossovers with The Flash. I did find a pretty good one which seems to come from her series and doesn't involve Barry, here, saving five people at superspeed while an explosion travels a few meters, even stopping at one point. I'll keep looking.

Nice, French! You have those feats? The bullet one does sound good in this case.

[FrenchGemini]

Nice, French! You have those feats? The bullet one does sound good in this case.

Actually, AdvanceBushido posted it earlier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_O8Xr83vf4. Most of her super speed feats have already been posted, at least the ones I could find. There is one where she catches Reverse-Flash, but that's Eobard running right into her arms, so yeah.

One that was mentioned by big, IIRC, about typing, writing, and researching at superspeed, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbpU3ieGa0w

For what it's worth, CW Superman also has some speed feats, like changing clothes in less than one second, or super speed punching Amazo.

So, I'd agree on the sentiment that CW Kryptonians are supposed to have superspeed, but forget it rather often.

[Sharpandpointies]

Actually, AdvanceBushido posted it earlier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_O8Xr83vf4.

Thanks, man. ^_^

This, I would say, is flat-out superspeed. She has enough time, based on her perceptions, to study the bullet, look disgusted, make a bunch of head movements to demonstrate her disgust, then flick her hand out at speeds that are VASTLY beyond the speed of the slow-crawling bullet and pluck it out of the air like it's nothing. Edit: Complete with slow-mo air-shockwave still floating around her fist as she's moving in what appears to be perfectly normal speed after catching the bullet.

There's no way this is bullet-timing speed, this is quite a bit above it. The bullet isn't just something she can perceive and avoid or deflect or even 'manage to catch'; the bullet is basically crawling along compared to her.

One that was mentioned by big, IIRC, about typing, writing, and researching at superspeed, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbpU3ieGa0w

Again, superspeed, starting with the part where she's typing. That's ridiculously fast. Then she knocks her stuff off the desk. She whisks off to hang stuff on the wall, moving there in the blink of an eye, but it's not just that; she's actually carrying SPECIFIC THINGS that she picked up from the mess on the floor, chosen from the fallen stuff when she moved to the wall, all done in the blink of an eye. That's waaaaay faster than bullet-time (the closest thing to this is Cass, a high-end bullet-timer, having knocked a bunch of people into the air and literally left them hanging there due to her speed, grabbing a fire hose and running across the room with it before they fall down again - not the same thing as stopping to examine some fallen objects and pick out specific ones that feel like they're important).

She then arranges all kinds of stuff on the wall, and proceeds to write all kinds of notes at superspeed. I don't feel that kind of writing speed would be outside of the speed of someone who was a high-end bullet-timer, but at the same time, it's absolutely perfect writing, no errors, done casually, and she's obviously considering things about what she's writing as she does it, not just 'writing down something memorized'. That's...impressive.

Edit: Okay, I've gone back and re-watched it again, and I think that writing speed even without doing it casually, off-the-top of one's head, while thinking, is still beyond bullet-time speed.

For what it's worth, CW Superman also has some speed feats, like changing clothes in less than one second, or super speed punching Amazo.

So, I'd agree on the sentiment that CW Kryptonians are supposed to have superspeed, but forget it rather often.

It's pretty clear it's in his presentation as well.

For me, this is enough to say she's supposed to have superspeed. How fast? Good question. Is there a whole ton of PIS in the shows? Sure, but as I understand that's par for the course for CW.

Mileage may vary.

[big_adventure]

I concur with all of that analysis - as I stated early, she's always been presented as someone with superspeed, and she's done enough with superspeed to validate it for Rumbles. She's also got her cousin, a being of the same race, who has the same presentation and who also has feats to back it up.

Based on the rules we've followed here for longer than I've been around (and that's already pushing, what, 14, 15 years?), she's got legit superspeed. She has presentation, and high end feats consistent with it. How fast? Hard to say, but it's clearly way beyond bullet timer, even high-end bullet-timer, and that's more than enough the blitz the crap out of DCEU Diana (which is what started all of this). And while I said "hard to say," her presentation AND concurring feat of "being as fast as fairly early Barry, fast enough that the two of them combined can break dimensional barriers with speed alone" is still pretty significant.