The Flash #783 Preview (Dark Crisis Tie-In)

[Ilan Preskovsky]

The problem is that I think the Wally vs Barry arguments will keep happening as long as DC doesn't find a better way to set the two characters apart. I suggested an idea or two but they're certainly not the only possible solutions. As it is, we're stuck with two characters with equal claim to being the primary Flash and that's not going to be fixed by having them occupy the same role just in two different but geographically close cities. It's not enough.

And yes, however much I've enjoyed Barry Allen stories from the past, such as in New Frontier or JLA: Year One, Wally is clearly the better modern Flash. Not because he's more powerful and not really because he's intrinsically a better character but because he has had arguably the greatest character arc of any major DC superhero that took the idea of Wally being a pretender to the thrown after Barry's death as a starting point and having him grow continuously from there. There has been little of that with Barry since his return. He just kind of picked up where he left off but now with a more mopey, tragedy-driven personality that has done the character no favours at all.

Admittedly, it probably is too late to implement anything like my idea of his coming to terms with being replaced and the darker world of the modern DCU but until they give Barry a stronger MO and a unique narrative purpose, he and Wally are going to keep living in each others shadows, which is a massive disservice to both characters. This isn't about Wally vs Barry: it's about how to make Wally AND Barry work.

By the way, the GL comparison is an interesting one. For all that they've written themselves into the corner with just too many Earth GLs to properly serve all of their fandoms, it's been very much the case since Hal came back that they've worked to find ways to justify characters like Kyle, John, Guy and Jessica existing right alongside Hal Jordan, and to have their own unique spots as part of the GL mythology. They're not always successful, by any means (I've never understood why the most grounded GL, Kyle, has been cut off from Earth arguably more than any of the others, for example), but at least it feels a concerted effort is made to do so. Yes, GL has the Corps so it's a lot easier, but Flash does have the Flash family - it's just that they've never quite worked out where he fits in that family.

[Frontier]

The problem is that I think the Wally vs Barry arguments will keep happening as long as DC doesn't find a better way to set the two characters apart. I suggested an idea or two but they're certainly not the only possible solutions. As it is, we're stuck with two characters with equal claim to being the primary Flash and that's not going to be fixed by having them occupy the same role just in two different but geographically close cities. It's not enough.

And yes, however much I've enjoyed Barry Allen stories from the past, such as in New Frontier or JLA: Year One, Wally is clearly the better modern Flash. Not because he's more powerful and not really because he's intrinsically a better character but because he has had arguably the greatest character arc of any major DC superhero that took the idea of Wally being a pretender to the thrown after Barry's death as a starting point and having him grow continuously from there. There has been little of that with Barry since his return. He just kind of picked up where he left off but now with a more mopey, tragedy-driven personality that has done the character no favours at all.

Admittedly, it probably is too late to implement anything like my idea of his coming to terms with being replaced and the darker world of the modern DCU but until they give Barry a stronger MO and a unique narrative purpose, he and Wally are going to keep living in each others shadows, which is a massive disservice to both characters. This isn't about Wally vs Barry: it's about how to make Wally AND Barry work.

By the way, the GL comparison is an interesting one. For all that they've written themselves into the corner with just too many Earth GLs to properly serve all of their fandoms, it's been very much the case since Hal came back that they've worked to find ways to justify characters like Kyle, John, Guy and Jessica existing right alongside Hal Jordan, and to have their own unique spots as part of the GL mythology. They're not always successful, by any means (I've never understood why the most grounded GL, Kyle, has been cut off from Earth arguably more than any of the others, for example), but at least it feels a concerted effort is made to do so. Yes, GL has the Corps so it's a lot easier, but Flash does have the Flash family - it's just that they've never quite worked out where he fits in that family.

I don't disagree with you on why Wally is great but it also can't be denied that sales were pretty solid and good with Barry in the lead, whether his return narrative worked as well as Wally's or otherwise.

I just don't think it's ultimately mattered much to the General Audience.

[Johnny]

We should still point out the Wally book is neither being promoted, nor did they even make Wally's return feel like that big of a deal. There was no fanfare or some big "Rebirth" type of story that put Wally back in the driver's seat, he became the Flash again cause Barry left and that was basically it. It's just weird to make him the main Flash, give him the main Flash title, "fix" the entire mess from previous years, bring back his family and everything that was missing, yet not have the marketing reflect any of that. Even Williamson said he still has people ask him when is Wally coming back. If even fans of the character don't know he's been back then what does that really say about DC's apparent lack of investment in him. Those fans probably look at the covers and think that's still Barry behind the mask. Hope the Dark Crisis tie-in is designed to give Wally's book some spotlight.

[BohemiaDrinker]

We should still point out the Wally book is neither being promoted, nor did they even make Wally's return feel like that big of a deal. There was no fanfare or some big "Rebirth" type of story that put Wally back in the driver's seat, he became the Flash again cause Barry left and that was basically it. It's just weird to make him the main Flash, give him the main Flash title, "fix" the entire mess from previous years, bring back his family and everything that was missing, yet not have the marketing reflect any of that. Even Williamson said he still has people ask him when is Wally coming back. If even fans of the character don't know he's been back then what does that really say about DC's apparent lack of investment in him. Those fans probably look at the covers and think that's still Barry behind the mask. Hope the Dark Crisis tie-in is designed to give Wally's book some spotlight.

It is weird, yeah. I believe that they got cold feet (as they did back in Infinite Crisis). Didio had just been ousted, they were in the middle of the 3rd or 4h editorial restructuring and Heroes in Crisis was still fresh in people's minds. Even Jeremy Adams first interview concerning the book was a mess and didn't reveal the fact that Wally would be headlining again.

[Refrax5]

The problem is that I think the Wally vs Barry arguments will keep happening as long as DC doesn't find a better way to set the two characters apart. I suggested an idea or two but they're certainly not the only possible solutions. As it is, we're stuck with two characters with equal claim to being the primary Flash and that's not going to be fixed by having them occupy the same role just in two different but geographically close cities. It's not enough.

And yes, however much I've enjoyed Barry Allen stories from the past, such as in New Frontier or JLA: Year One, Wally is clearly the better modern Flash. Not because he's more powerful and not really because he's intrinsically a better character but because he has had arguably the greatest character arc of any major DC superhero that took the idea of Wally being a pretender to the thrown after Barry's death as a starting point and having him grow continuously from there. There has been little of that with Barry since his return. He just kind of picked up where he left off but now with a more mopey, tragedy-driven personality that has done the character no favours at all.

Admittedly, it probably is too late to implement anything like my idea of his coming to terms with being replaced and the darker world of the modern DCU but until they give Barry a stronger MO and a unique narrative purpose, he and Wally are going to keep living in each others shadows, which is a massive disservice to both characters. This isn't about Wally vs Barry: it's about how to make Wally AND Barry work.

By the way, the GL comparison is an interesting one. For all that they've written themselves into the corner with just too many Earth GLs to properly serve all of their fandoms, it's been very much the case since Hal came back that they've worked to find ways to justify characters like Kyle, John, Guy and Jessica existing right alongside Hal Jordan, and to have their own unique spots as part of the GL mythology. They're not always successful, by any means (I've never understood why the most grounded GL, Kyle, has been cut off from Earth arguably more than any of the others, for example), but at least it feels a concerted effort is made to do so. Yes, GL has the Corps so it's a lot easier, but Flash does have the Flash family - it's just that they've never quite worked out where he fits in that family.

I would also argue that Wally's arc more or less ended a long time ago and he hasn't had a lot of development since. The Johns run was basically centered around the Rogues and Wally became Barry 2.0 in a lot of respects.

It's the same problem with Kyle Rayner. If the whole appeal of the character is them trying to live up to their predecessor, they lose steam once they actually accomplish that. And as much as I love Dick Grayson as Batman, you never hear anybody say Bruce is outdated and Dick should replace him because Dick has to struggle to live up to him. Its a weird argument that only really seems to be a thing with this character. I mean, I prefer Bucky as Captain America, but I'm not constantly disparaging Steve or Sam and saying they should be benched. Same with Rhodes or Miles or anyone. It's tiring.

I think the character that essentially saved the superhero genre and birthed the Silver Age deserves better than this lip service of, "Yeah, he's great but also boring and outdated and needs to go far away so he isn't a threat to Wally."

[HsssH]

I thought the Batgirls and Robins threads were consumed with it. Sigh. I was just hoping to talk about the current issue, which I love.

Legacy concept was a mistake.

[millernumber1]

Legacy concept was a mistake.

Never gonna get me to agree there.

[Kirk Brent]

The problem is that I think the Wally vs Barry arguments will keep happening as long as DC doesn't find a better way to set the two characters apart. I suggested an idea or two but they're certainly not the only possible solutions. As it is, we're stuck with two characters with equal claim to being the primary Flash and that's not going to be fixed by having them occupy the same role just in two different but geographically close cities. It's not enough.

And yes, however much I've enjoyed Barry Allen stories from the past, such as in New Frontier or JLA: Year One, Wally is clearly the better modern Flash. Not because he's more powerful and not really because he's intrinsically a better character but because he has had arguably the greatest character arc of any major DC superhero that took the idea of Wally being a pretender to the thrown after Barry's death as a starting point and having him grow continuously from there. There has been little of that with Barry since his return. He just kind of picked up where he left off but now with a more mopey, tragedy-driven personality that has done the character no favours at all.

Admittedly, it probably is too late to implement anything like my idea of his coming to terms with being replaced and the darker world of the modern DCU but until they give Barry a stronger MO and a unique narrative purpose, he and Wally are going to keep living in each others shadows, which is a massive disservice to both characters. This isn't about Wally vs Barry: it's about how to make Wally AND Barry work.

By the way, the GL comparison is an interesting one. For all that they've written themselves into the corner with just too many Earth GLs to properly serve all of their fandoms, it's been very much the case since Hal came back that they've worked to find ways to justify characters like Kyle, John, Guy and Jessica existing right alongside Hal Jordan, and to have their own unique spots as part of the GL mythology. They're not always successful, by any means (I've never understood why the most grounded GL, Kyle, has been cut off from Earth arguably more than any of the others, for example), but at least it feels a concerted effort is made to do so. Yes, GL has the Corps so it's a lot easier, but Flash does have the Flash family - it's just that they've never quite worked out where he fits in that family.

You nailed the central problem with Barry's return: it was about DiDio wanting him back and Wally out instead of developing Barry further. I think Johns would have done more to explore Barry's return and his reactions to the darker times, but Flashpoint/New 52 derailed any of that development. New 52 Barry was just a de-aged, non-married version of the Silver Age Barry with some modern updates. Rebirth/Doomsday Clock would have fixed the timeline, but DiDio's return derailed Johns' plans and left the DCU in a rudderless state worse than before Rebirth.

I would also argue that Wally's arc more or less ended a long time ago and he hasn't had a lot of development since. The Johns run was basically centered around the Rogues and Wally became Barry 2.0 in a lot of respects.

I think the character that essentially saved the superhero genre and birthed the Silver Age deserves better than this lip service of, "Yeah, he's great but also boring and outdated and needs to go far away so he isn't a threat to Wally."

Let's not forget that Superman was selling extremely well prior to Showcase #5. That said, Barry is instrumental to what DC became from the Silver Age forward, especially the Multiverse. I think this is the problem with how he was treated after he returned. The desire was to just bring him back with no real plans for how that return would affect Barry himself or the DCU at large. Barry's journey after returning should have been longer. Would he just go back to being Flash (now "a" Flash) or would he take time to reconnect with Iris and to explore his place in a world he'd been away from for a decade or more? If good storytelling and characterization had been paramount, the answer is no. DC execs like DiDio and Harras just wanted him back as the Flash; I'm not even sure Johns wanted him back, or at least, in the way he was treated. Adding the unnecessary tragedy to Barry's past may have been DiDio's idea to make Barry "relevant" or Johns' way of trying to find something new to do with Barry.

[KC]

Barry can be both a Flash and discover his place in the universe. And Johns' Barry run before Flashpoint was trying to do that.

The problem here is some Flash fans do not want to find a way for them to both work, they want to shove Barry off into some corner of the Multiverse. The idea of Barry and Wally both being the Flash on Earth would somehow put them in each other's shadows is nonsensical.

Barry vs Wally debates will keep happening so long as DC keeps trying to move one of Barry or Wally away from what has made them work all this time, being the Flash on the ground on Earth. There is no evidence that doing more than this isn't enough.

[Kirk Brent]

Barry can be both a Flash and discover his place in the universe. And Johns' Barry run before Flashpoint was trying to do that.

The problem here is some Flash fans do not want to find a way for them to both work, they want to shove Barry off into some corner of the Multiverse. The idea of Barry and Wally both being the Flash on Earth would somehow put them in each other's shadows is nonsensical.

I don't want to "shove" Barry anywhere that doesn't make sense for his character. Given that he discovered the Multiverse, it seems fitting that he would want to explore it as we've seen in recent stories.

How would you differentiate stories in two books about Barry in Central City and Wally in Keystone? To me, Barry has outgrown being held down in one city. What about Barry or Wally moving to another continent? Maybe Wally could move his family to Europe? That would provide a new setting, supporting characters, villains, etc. I'm just spit-balling here, but maybe the solution is as simple as that.

[KC]

I don't want to "shove" Barry anywhere that doesn't make sense for his character. Given that he discovered the Multiverse, it seems fitting that he would want to explore it as we've seen in recent stories.

How would you differentiate stories in two books about Barry in Central City and Wally in Keystone? To me, Barry has outgrown being held down in one city. What about Barry or Wally moving to another continent? Maybe Wally could move his family to Europe? That would provide a new setting, supporting characters, villains, etc. I'm just spit-balling here, but maybe the solution is as simple as that.

Barry has family, friends, and a job in the main DC Universe. You could replicate some of that in the multiverse but it wouldn't mean as much. It would feel hollow. And that doesn't even stop Barry (or Wally) from exploring the multiverse. But I think they both need to have boots on the ground on Earth and they need to be able to interact with the relationships they have in the main DC Universe.

Barry and Wally have different lives and jobs. Not to mention their purpose as the Flash is different. You could give Barry more Silver Age/Bronze Age-inspired stories (obviously with modern sensibilities for storytelling). That would differentiate them.

[Jon Clark]

I don't want to "shove" Barry anywhere that doesn't make sense for his character. Given that he discovered the Multiverse, it seems fitting that he would want to explore it as we've seen in recent stories.

How would you differentiate stories in two books about Barry in Central City and Wally in Keystone? To me, Barry has outgrown being held down in one city. What about Barry or Wally moving to another continent? Maybe Wally could move his family to Europe? That would provide a new setting, supporting characters, villains, etc. I'm just spit-balling here, but maybe the solution is as simple as that.

I'm coming around on the idea of getting Barry out of the everyday DCU as it dawns on me that Barry's best set=up isn't coming back. Writers no longer are able to write characters who have nor mal lives. We aren't going to get a Barry who can have a lazy Saturday or has parts of his life separate from being the Flash. Much as i want Barry to have a life in Central City, if the stories won't make use of it Barry might as well be based on Mars and have adventures on Rann. It isn't like we can expect to see a supporting cast that iisn't connected to super-heroing. The place where Barry rests his head isn't going to play a role in the stories.

[Frontier]

I'm coming around on the idea of getting Barry out of the everyday DCU as it dawns on me that Barry's best set=up isn't coming back. Writers no longer are able to write characters who have nor mal lives. We aren't going to get a Barry who can have a lazy Saturday or has parts of his life separate from being the Flash. Much as i want Barry to have a life in Central City, if the stories won't make use of it Barry might as well be based on Mars and have adventures on Rann. It isn't like we can expect to see a supporting cast that iisn't connected to super-heroing. The place where Barry rests his head isn't going to play a role in the stories.

Well, it all depends on the writer and execution at the end of the day.

[Refrax5]

You nailed the central problem with Barry's return: it was about DiDio wanting him back and Wally out instead of developing Barry further. I think Johns would have done more to explore Barry's return and his reactions to the darker times, but Flashpoint/New 52 derailed any of that development. New 52 Barry was just a de-aged, non-married version of the Silver Age Barry with some modern updates. Rebirth/Doomsday Clock would have fixed the timeline, but DiDio's return derailed Johns' plans and left the DCU in a rudderless state worse than before Rebirth.



Let's not forget that Superman was selling extremely well prior to Showcase #5. That said, Barry is instrumental to what DC became from the Silver Age forward, especially the Multiverse. I think this is the problem with how he was treated after he returned. The desire was to just bring him back with no real plans for how that return would affect Barry himself or the DCU at large. Barry's journey after returning should have been longer. Would he just go back to being Flash (now "a" Flash) or would he take time to reconnect with Iris and to explore his place in a world he'd been away from for a decade or more? If good storytelling and characterization had been paramount, the answer is no. DC execs like DiDio and Harras just wanted him back as the Flash; I'm not even sure Johns wanted him back, or at least, in the way he was treated. Adding the unnecessary tragedy to Barry's past may have been DiDio's idea to make Barry "relevant" or Johns' way of trying to find something new to do with Barry.

Yes, but outside of Superman, Batman and to a lesser degree Wonder Woman, superhero comics were a dead genre. I don't really think you can understate Barry's importance to the genre.

[Refrax5]

I don't want to "shove" Barry anywhere that doesn't make sense for his character. Given that he discovered the Multiverse, it seems fitting that he would want to explore it as we've seen in recent stories.

How would you differentiate stories in two books about Barry in Central City and Wally in Keystone? To me, Barry has outgrown being held down in one city. What about Barry or Wally moving to another continent? Maybe Wally could move his family to Europe? That would provide a new setting, supporting characters, villains, etc. I'm just spit-balling here, but maybe the solution is as simple as that.

Barry was more defined by his secret identity and having a life outside of the Flash, so I would argue Wally would be better for a kind of setup that abandons the need for a secret identity. A big part of Barry's charm is that he's kind of a normal guy under the mask.