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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    Many excellent points.

    To erase all the mistakes, WBD should return to Pre-Crisis and then go forward.

    COIEs was brand new territory, and some missteps were inevitable. (Others, like Hawkworld, were completely avoidable.) Sadly, those mistakes started a cascade errors like falling dominoes.

    I feel to clean the wreckage, TPTB should start where the steaming hot mess began.
    Except that there is so much water under the bridge since DiDio's edicts let alone the original Crisis. Going back to the continuity of almost 40 years ago is going to scare off more readers than it attracts.
    Wally never having been the Flash?
    Jason Todd as Robin (with Dick Grayson's origin)?
    Kyle and Jessica having never been Green Lanterns?
    Beetle and Booster not having met?

    Do we even have writers at DC who remember 1986, let alone DC continuity from then?

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Stanlos's Avatar
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    Everything they needed to tell alternative tales of an Emo Wizard Magazine bad fan fic version of the DCU was there. They did not need to throw out their history and iconic status to do it.

    They could explored these alternative threads with an event focused on the Book of Destiny, Waverider, one of the Gods like Athena discussing possible futures, one of the New Gods talling about a possible future, Odin examining a new branch on Ygdrasil, or Hippolyte showing one of the heroes this possible future through her Scrying glass.

    The event itself could a set of themed annuals, quarterlies, one shots or a collection of mini and/or maxi series.

    And the biggest thing would be not to simply regurgitate the classics with much less quality and competence.

  3. #18

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    I always wanted something akin to the Ultimate line for DC. Keep the main universe but also have a side universe that's young, hip and fresh. More Bendis style Ultimate Spider-Man than Ultimates or Ultimate X-Men.

    I would have preferred no reboot at all, more Zero Hour style soft reboots that makes slight adjustments to continuity.

    If a hard reboot is inevitable then:

    -The previous continuity becomes the new Earth 2. There will be a 10-15 year time skip. Every major characters one title, there will be a couple of team books and a general Earth 2 book. This means Damian, Black Canary's side kick Sin, Zachary Zatara, Jai, Iris and the whole 5the generation of heroes would be in their teens or early 20's now. Dick's generation would be the main protectors now while Tim's generation would be the secondary defense and the original JLA would take on a role akin to the JSA. This would be a good idea to work in newer versions of Jon Kent and Helena Wayne into the mix.

    -For the new continuity, I would get the most seasoned, veteran writers possible along with a mix of up and coming writers to hash out the major characters. Someone like Paul Dini for Batman, Rucka and Kelly Sue DeConnick for Wonder Woman, Morrison for Superman, Waid for Flash, Brubaker for Catwoman, etc. Every book would have a label indicating which earth it takes place in, obviously a book like Nightwing would have to take place in the old continuity.

    In the new continuity, Dick's generation would still be teens and I would give them to someone like Picolo to give them a modern, fresh, YA style spin on those characters.

    In the new universe, it's Year 3 for everyone. I would give it a neo Silver Age look with Batman only having Robin/Dick Grayson and Batgirl/Babs as side kicks, there would be a Batwoman but it would be the Kate Kane Batwoman. I would have Bruce adopt Jason, Tim and Cass around the same time just to side step any time line issues. Diana has Steve Trevor and Etta Candy as supporting characters, no daughter of Zeus nonsense just include a young Steve Trevor in a mordernized retelling of Gods & Mortals, Donna would be a member of the cast from the get go with a simplified origin. A modernized Barry Allen for the new continuity and as for Green Lantern, I would go with either John Stewart or Kyle Rayner as the main GL of this new continuity. Clark Kent would be mordernized thoroughly, basically, what if the rocket landed one earth in 1990, the DP would be an online news paper, Lois would know his secret from the get go and it would have the same feel as Birthright.

    All titles would be standalone at first, even team books and then once the characters are established you can start crossing them out.

    As the new continuity settles in, you can do gimmick events like 'gasp! the new Batman's first meeting with the Joker' blah blah blah and then at the end of year, do an event where the Justice League is formed.

    I would also give ongoing for Zatanna, Black Canary, Black Lightning, Vixen, Static Shock, Mr Terrific, Hawkman, Doom Patrol and the Martian Manhunter.

    -Comics would exist in seasons. Every season would last 12 issues. Every comic goes digital a few weeks after physical copies are released.

    -Vertigo would still exist but in exclusive digital format.

    -Some ongoing won't be cancelled, they would go digital exclusive.

    -A Young Adult line of books where up and coming writers are allowed to experiment with characters. Have a young writer do their own take on Helena Wayne, Jade, Obisidian, Hector Hall, Power Girl, Lyta Trevor, etc, etc.

    -Digital exclusive books that would allow genres besides superheroes to have space if printing them was too costly.

    -Every major character would have a Legends of the Dark Knight/WW Black and Gold style ongoing where different creative teams are just free to experiment new ideas. If they work out they will be incorporated into the main universe. For non franchise characters there would be something akin to 'truth & Justice' or Showcase for those titles.

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  4. #19

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    I'd probably just have Dick and his friends take over their mentors mantles. It was already happening and I'd just lean into it more. It allows DC to have their cake and eat it too. They are the fresh new faces but you don't have to throw out continuity to get them there.

    The old guard would still be around but less of a focus. Tim's get took over as the 20 somethings trying to find their place while Damien steps up to form the Titans.

    Milestone and Wildstorm are back to being their own imprints.

    If I had to make a new universe, I'd probably do something similar to 5g or God's and Monsters. The mantles stay but the owners are new.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 06-21-2022 at 09:31 AM.

  5. #20
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    What people may not realize (or maybe they do) is that Marv Wolfman came up with the idea of COIE around 1981 and spent several years researching and plotting the idea before it actually hit the stands.

    You can't just reinvent the universe overnight without planning it and expect it to make sense or be successful.

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Assuming we're going with the 5-6 years back story timeline, make it as it should be. First and second gen.

    Robin is Dick, Batgirl is Babs, Garth is Aqualad (he was hinted to still be young), and so on. Black Wally's fine, just let him and Dick and Donna make the Teen Titans, and don't make Donna an evil homunculus. Good homunculus is fine.

    Then if we're making Superboy early, I guess the team would be more like the TV Young Justice. Since Kon doesn't age, I don't think this is a problem, he can still be Tim's best friend and they form Young Justice later down the line. Maybe around the same time Bendis comes in.

    I don't have a problem with the Kents dying and they want to focus on Superman's loneliness as an alien, or that he has a romance with Diana, because this is only 5 years into the timeline. They're young, they can experiment. Just don't do engagement or marriage just yet

    Actually, I also don't mind if Kate become Batwoman early, as if she's the first Batwoman, because she was originally created to replace Kathy. Not really a personal preference, I much rather everything's canon, but I don't mind it that much either.

    Daughter of Zeus is still a no for me though, because I like the concept of Diana and Amazons as purely female made, be it Hera or Aphrodite. I don't mind the rest of the story or the redesign.

    The Court of Owls story makes more sense if Batman's still young and unfamiliar with the city, and that they're targeting Dick because he was still only recently taken from under their nose.

    Duke Thomas can still be an early sidekick of Batman, he's just the same age as Tim and Jason (originally Tim and Jason were the same age, but later on, Jason was aged up) and trained together with either of them. One as Robin and one as Signal. Maybe with Jason, and then Robin died and there was only Signal. Of course, the story's gonna diverge significantly from the original, but it's a reboot, after all.
    Plus this:

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Make it take place on a whole new Earth (Earth-52?) so that it didn't replace / displace any previous histories.
    Yes.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    What people may not realize (or maybe they do) is that Marv Wolfman came up with the idea of COIE around 1981 and spent several years researching and plotting the idea before it actually hit the stands.

    You can't just reinvent the universe overnight without planning it and expect it to make sense or be successful.
    QFTT. And even with all that planing, there were still things they couldn't get around. Imagine doing it on the fly, as it feels like they do nowadays.

    Peace

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post

    I feel to clear the wreckage, TPTB should start where the steaming hot mess began.
    DC seems to get close with every new "sequel" to COIE but never attempt to repair the damage. Ironically, the closest they came was a story that was never intended to mean much at all to continuity: Convergence. If it had been significant, Rebirth wouldn't have been necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Except that there is so much water under the bridge since DiDio's edicts let alone the original Crisis. Going back to the continuity of almost 40 years ago is going to scare off more readers than it attracts.
    Wally never having been the Flash?
    Jason Todd as Robin (with Dick Grayson's origin)?
    Kyle and Jessica having never been Green Lanterns?
    Beetle and Booster not having met?

    Do we even have writers at DC who remember 1986, let alone DC continuity from then?
    When I pitch the idea of undoing COIE, I always try to keep as much of the continuity of the post-COIE era as possible. A lot of those stories can still happen with a Multiverse, including Wally as The Flash. If Barry is presumed dead, Wally still takes over. Teams and team-ups after COIE could still happen but with multiversal travel.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I always wanted something akin to the Ultimate line for DC. Keep the main universe but also have a side universe that's young, hip and fresh. More Bendis style Ultimate Spider-Man than Ultimates or Ultimate X-Men.

    I would have preferred no reboot at all, more Zero Hour style soft reboots that makes slight adjustments to continuity.

    If a hard reboot is inevitable then:

    -The previous continuity becomes the new Earth 2. There will be a 10-15 year time skip. Every major characters one title, there will be a couple of team books and a general Earth 2 book. This means Damian, Black Canary's side kick Sin, Zachary Zatara, Jai, Iris and the whole 5the generation of heroes would be in their teens or early 20's now. Dick's generation would be the main protectors now while Tim's generation would be the secondary defense and the original JLA would take on a role akin to the JSA. This would be a good idea to work in newer versions of Jon Kent and Helena Wayne into the mix.

    -For the new continuity, I would get the most seasoned, veteran writers possible along with a mix of up and coming writers to hash out the major characters. Someone like Paul Dini for Batman, Rucka and Kelly Sue DeConnick for Wonder Woman, Morrison for Superman, Waid for Flash, Brubaker for Catwoman, etc. Every book would have a label indicating which earth it takes place in, obviously a book like Nightwing would have to take place in the old continuity.

    In the new continuity, Dick's generation would still be teens and I would give them to someone like Picolo to give them a modern, fresh, YA style spin on those characters.

    In the new universe, it's Year 3 for everyone. I would give it a neo Silver Age look with Batman only having Robin/Dick Grayson and Batgirl/Babs as side kicks, there would be a Batwoman but it would be the Kate Kane Batwoman. I would have Bruce adopt Jason, Tim and Cass around the same time just to side step any time line issues. Diana has Steve Trevor and Etta Candy as supporting characters, no daughter of Zeus nonsense just include a young Steve Trevor in a mordernized retelling of Gods & Mortals, Donna would be a member of the cast from the get go with a simplified origin. A modernized Barry Allen for the new continuity and as for Green Lantern, I would go with either John Stewart or Kyle Rayner as the main GL of this new continuity. Clark Kent would be mordernized thoroughly, basically, what if the rocket landed one earth in 1990, the DP would be an online news paper, Lois would know his secret from the get go and it would have the same feel as Birthright.

    All titles would be standalone at first, even team books and then once the characters are established you can start crossing them out.

    As the new continuity settles in, you can do gimmick events like 'gasp! the new Batman's first meeting with the Joker' blah blah blah and then at the end of year, do an event where the Justice League is formed.

    I would also give ongoing for Zatanna, Black Canary, Black Lightning, Vixen, Static Shock, Mr Terrific, Hawkman, Doom Patrol and the Martian Manhunter.

    -Comics would exist in seasons. Every season would last 12 issues. Every comic goes digital a few weeks after physical copies are released.

    -Vertigo would still exist but in exclusive digital format.

    -Some ongoing won't be cancelled, they would go digital exclusive.

    -A Young Adult line of books where up and coming writers are allowed to experiment with characters. Have a young writer do their own take on Helena Wayne, Jade, Obisidian, Hector Hall, Power Girl, Lyta Trevor, etc, etc.

    -Digital exclusive books that would allow genres besides superheroes to have space if printing them was too costly.

    -Every major character would have a Legends of the Dark Knight/WW Black and Gold style ongoing where different creative teams are just free to experiment new ideas. If they work out they will be incorporated into the main universe. For non franchise characters there would be something akin to 'truth & Justice' or Showcase for those titles.
    Great ideas here!

    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    What people may not realize (or maybe they do) is that Marv Wolfman came up with the idea of COIE around 1981 and spent several years researching and plotting the idea before it actually hit the stands.

    You can't just reinvent the universe overnight without planning it and expect it to make sense or be successful.
    Unfortunately, Dan DiDio and Bob Harras were far from being anything like Marv Wolfman.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    As I said in the COIE thread regarding that event, I just wouldn't have done it. The only reason why it was done was because Didio & Lee thought they'd be fired if they didn't do SOMETHING, and the reboot was always their final hail mary to save their jobs. And unlike COIE, which had so many amazing stories that happened almost immediately after that, even if it wasn't the result of COIE itself it somewhat justified it (or at least took your attention away from it), you'd be hard pressed to find a truly *classic* story that happened subsequent to New 52. It was just an utter waste of time and seriously damaged many characters.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    What people may not realize (or maybe they do) is that Marv Wolfman came up with the idea of COIE around 1981 and spent several years researching and plotting the idea before it actually hit the stands.

    You can't just reinvent the universe overnight without planning it and expect it to make sense or be successful.
    In fairness to things then versus things now, the market is substantially different today than it was 40 years ago. When Marv Wolfman and DC cafted and published COIE, it was with the idea that they would be creating a new universe for the next generation of fans to follow for years to come. There was always a constant influx of new readers, so they could take their time and really develop COIE. And even with how well it was developed, it wasn't without its share of flaws and gaffes.

    You just couldn't do that now with the current state of the industry.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Brent View Post
    I kept these three from your original post because they speak to the core problem: Dan DiDio. DiDio admitted he believed the status quo had to be "shaken up" every six months. Patrick Gerard (who I think still posts here) was working at DC in the early 2000s and has confirmed DiDio's "approach," adding that DiDio didn't hate characters like Wally or Dick so much as he wanted to piss off their fans so they would continue to read. This is a warped version of using narrative conflict and salesmanship to keep fans engaged.

    DiDio clearly never understood what made DC Comics work. He worked tirelessly to turn it into DC through the lens of Marvel. He wanted to restore the Silver/Bronze Age characters at the cost of Wally, Kyle, Dick, Connor, and any other hero who he saw as "redundant." He wanted no successful relationships, going so far as to say that "superheroes don't deserve to be happy." He was (and very likely still is) a miserable and cynical man whose tenure caused irrevocable damage to DC Comics. Rebirth was the last chance to undo the damage of the New 52 and once DiDio returned from his two year break, Johns' work on Doomsday Clock was stalled (allegedly because of Gary Frank but really because DiDio returned and wanted to put his stamp on a new DCU direction) and Bendis was brought aboard. King and Snyder were encouraged to push their vapid and dark visions and characters like the Titans (especially Wally and Dick) were further damaged.

    I'm not entirely sure DC will ever recover from what DiDio did. If WBD cares, they'll do a deep house cleaning and find a way to erase the bulk of what DC has become since "Identity Crisis."
    You voted for Lex Luthor so your argument is invalid.
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  12. #27
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    I'd simply use 'the original idea', which was to launch/relaunch 52 new #1s as new-reader friendly jump-on points, spinning out of Brightest Day and Generation Lost.
    Timed to start with same-day digital, as it was, first issues would be plenty to get them attention.

    All new #1s, tied to the recent events, new jump-on points, same continuity, new digital distribution.
    You get new readers, you retain current readers, and get to put on a fresh coat of paint in the process.
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  13. #28
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    The New 52 was designed to draw in new readers, so we're going to make books that begin at the start to draw in these new readers. In addition, the New 52 will be made as an imprint with it's own universe so that the Pre-Flashpoint books can continue or at least finish their stories.

    We begin with a small line of books with superstar creative teams meant to build up this world:

    Batman by Scott Snyder, let this guy tell the New 52 Batman story but set as the centerpiece of this new universe. His Batman series felt like a retelling of Batman's greatest stories anyways, but this time we'll start with Zero Year instead of the Court of Owls. Have a story where Dick Grayson is introduced, spinning us off into.
    -Batman and Robin by Peter Tomasi, just meant for world-building and feeding the Bat-audience

    Superman by Mark Waid, this would be assuming that the new plan is something Mark Waid is willing to work with, but I believe he could tell an amazing Superman story starting from Day 1. I don't believe Grant Morrison is the right choice to draw in new readers for Superman, but maybe there'll be a place for Grant Morrison later down the line.

    Wonder Woman by Gail Simone, have someone who truly understands Wonder Woman write her.

    Aquaman by Geoff Johns, perfect choice to draw in readers for this new universe.

    Flash by Frank Manapaul, once again just a great choice for bringing new readers in since he gets the character.

    Green Lantern by Robert Venditti, this guy likes Green Lanterns and tells great stories with them so just let him loose on this new universe.

    6-12 months after this initial line of books, we launch Justice League by Geoff Johns to bring all these heroes together with Martian Manhunter as the centerpiece. We're going to save Cyborg for a Teen Titans series.

    This will get us through 12 months at least of New 52, which will slowly ramp up so new readers are not overwhelmed. We'll gradually add in Shazam, Teen Titans, and more characters and teams as the world naturally develops. In 5 years, we should have a rather filled up New 52 universe.

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Honestly Scott Snyder's stories proved that it doesn't even need to start from the beginning for people to enjoy it. So is Johns Aquaman (though that one has far less books and family member). It just needs to be simple and understandable enough without getting bogged down by past continuity.

    Batman found out there's a secret society in Gotham. He's investigating it. That's it. That's The Court. Very simple. The supporting cast is also limited to Dick mainly and Alfred and Gordon in the background. There are other Bat fam members featured but you don't need to know them to enjoy the story, because they don't deliberately focus on them.

    The back stories can be told through flashbacks

    So my second concept of New 52, if we're not using 5 year timeline and all the characters, is simply to begin where it left off, but using that particular situation as the focus of conflict while slowly reintroducing the other characters.

    Batman already has the example above
    Aquaman didn't mention at all that he was dead and resurrected
    Green Lantern instead of beginning with Sinestro re-accepted as Green Lantern and referencing his villainous past, have Hal be the point of view character being forced to partner with Sinestro. Reveal that he used to be a villain and his mentor and what kind of relationship they had slowly throughout the story.

    Limit referencing the past to what's needed in the story, similar to how the Burton movies do it, and reveal the past or supporting cast one by one as the series go on.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 06-22-2022 at 03:36 PM.

  15. #30
    Mighty Member InfamousBG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    All new #1s, tied to the recent events, new jump-on points, same continuity, new digital distribution.
    You get new readers, you retain current readers, and get to put on a fresh coat of paint in the process.
    I agree to a point. It sometimes works and does not. Id say "Marvel Now" (when Marvel kind of did it back then) worked in a way that Marvel did not like. I do think it is the way DC should have went but did not because Dido did not think just new #1s would cut it (he was wrong). Dido thought "Lets F up as much as we can and see how far we can take it".
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