How would you have done the New 52 differently?

[adamishere1]

So being reading some of the stuff from that period and I think we can all agree it wasn't great, so the question I have is what could they have done differently? For me I would have liked one or two people to remember the pre-N52 universe.

Specifically I would have liked Booster Gold to remember the old universe on the basis that he could have been outside time when the changes took place and it would have been interesting to see how he dealt with younger versions of his friends and trying to figure out what changed everything and should he change it back.

But what would you have done differently?

Also got other thoughts about other periods of DC or events, might share and ask the question what would you have done differently?

[bat39]

I guess the single biggest thing would be to ensure that the timeline was all mapped out before launching it! Like seriously, a situation where a writer like Gail Simone isn't told if Batgirl is supposed to be a veteran superhero who was Oracle for years or a relatively inexperienced hero who was just temporarily out of action is just pathetic.

[Restingvoice]

Assuming we're going with the 5-6 years back story timeline, make it as it should be. First and second gen.

Robin is Dick, Batgirl is Babs, Garth is Aqualad (he was hinted to still be young), and so on. Black Wally's fine, just let him and Dick and Donna make the Teen Titans, and don't make Donna an evil homunculus. Good homunculus is fine.

Then if we're making Superboy early, I guess the team would be more like the TV Young Justice. Since Kon doesn't age, I don't think this is a problem, he can still be Tim's best friend and they form Young Justice later down the line. Maybe around the same time Bendis comes in.

I don't have a problem with the Kents dying and they want to focus on Superman's loneliness as an alien, or that he has a romance with Diana, because this is only 5 years into the timeline. They're young, they can experiment. Just don't do engagement or marriage just yet

Actually, I also don't mind if Kate become Batwoman early, as if she's the first Batwoman, because she was originally created to replace Kathy. Not really a personal preference, I much rather everything's canon, but I don't mind it that much either.

Daughter of Zeus is still a no for me though, because I like the concept of Diana and Amazons as purely female made, be it Hera or Aphrodite. I don't mind the rest of the story or the redesign.

The Court of Owls story makes more sense if Batman's still young and unfamiliar with the city, and that they're targeting Dick because he was still only recently taken from under their nose.

Duke Thomas can still be an early sidekick of Batman, he's just the same age as Tim and Jason (originally Tim and Jason were the same age, but later on, Jason was aged up) and trained together with either of them. One as Robin and one as Signal. Maybe with Jason, and then Robin died and there was only Signal. Of course, the story's gonna diverge significantly from the original, but it's a reboot, after all.

[InfamousBG]

I would have never done the New 52 at all. What a joke (outside of some Batman).

[Jon Clark]

I'd have made it a true reboot. No Batman had 5 Robins before this started. No Green Lantern Corps keeps most of their history. No prior Teen Titans as there were no teen sidekicks in the past to form the team.

[MajorHoy]

Make it take place on a whole new Earth (Earth-52?) so that it didn't replace / displace any previous histories.

[Nomads1]

I honestly wouldn't have done it. I think DC was far from a state of mess and confusion that demanded a reboot. Especially one where you picked and choosed what you were going to reboot and what you weren't.

Peace

[Doctor Know]

The reboot could have worked, if TPTB mapped out and stuck to a set of rules.

The smarter bargain would have been to do what Marvel did with Marvel Now 1.0. Launch all series with new number one issues and have all titles on the same page of what matters (quarterly line wide events) and what counts (past stories and character details) the universe will carry forward.

DC did that for Manapul's Flash, Johns' GL and Morrison's Batman titles. Everyone else got hit with the reboot stick. 5 years later DC decided to do their Rebirth; to bring back the pre-Flashpoint continuity. While Marvel launched Marvel Now 2.0 at the same time. Neither of which could spin the plates again for a win a second time.

[thefinalguy]

I would go in one of two directions:

Five-Year Timeline: Hard-ish reboot, Dick has only been Robin for about a year. The rest of the major heroes are in their early careers.

Arthur isn't married to Mera, Zeus is NOT the father, Lois only recently found out Clark is Superman but that could act as a year-one build-up with her finding out.

Keep the idea of Wally being Black no one is going to die. Teen Titans formations with him, Dick, Donna, Garth, and Roy. Mal and Karen would have big roles. Eventually, the NTT roster would find its way in. The book would be a rotating ensemble similar to YJ.

Kara is Supergirl but her introduction would be held back over a year, to establish Clark.

I'd eventually bring Jackson/Kaldur into the fold with Garth becoming Tempest earlier.

Damian would appear eventually, just give it a few years and he doesn't become Robin until after Dick becomes Nightwing. Tim, Jason, and Duke would show up over the years never taking the Robin mantle instead going off into their own things. Keeping the BatBoys similar in age. And, this way Bruce doesn't have multiple Robins. Bruce takes them in, they eventually decide to fight crime themselves.

Cyborg isn't on the JL, I'd give his spot to Vixen. Black Lightning, Dr. Light (Kimiyo), and Jessica Cruz would become alternative staples for the League to add some diversity and push some heroes that deserve some exposure.

Cyborg does keep the power upgrade, he could be pushed as an earlier Teen Titans member.

The GL book would be a John / Hal duo situation. Guy would have a role in some capacity as time goes on. Jessica and Simon would eventually become lanterns, younger of course. Kyle I'll leave alone for now but they could use him as a vehicle for the multiverse with him crossing over.

I prefer Barbara as Oracle which would happen eventually, we see her begin as a new hero whose overzealous attempts cause her to become paralyzed. The intention is for her to become Oracle and also look at how superheroism can have consequences. Which this new universe will have.

Cass Cain becomes Batgirl sometime after which would lead to the events of Birds of Prey, which would've followed Canary, Oracle, and Huntress (keeping the N52 look with her pre-FP personality) dealing with Shiva.

We won't have 52 books within the universe, rather have it split with the pre-Flashpoint earth, which will continue its stories. Company-wide push for stories outside of the current main universe so everyone can get something. Multiverse-exploring story-telling would be big in the comics.

Then option two...

Fifteen-Year Timeline:

This universe, it's a bit similar to the one we have now, except without the big multiverse events.

Damian's introduction would be an earlier story, The YJ is active as the YJ, and the Titans are Titans just a few years younger than they were pre-FP. A more streamlined version of the events we already have. Some of the stories we have today could fit into continuity without problem or small adjustment.

Barbara is Oracle.

Wallace would exist under a different premise.

Various titles would be made to cover the history of the universe, understand what fits into the canon and allow us to catch up.

JL would again mix in people like BL, Vixen, Cyborg, Jessica Cruz, and Dr.Light with its staples.

[Kirk Brent]

I would have never done the New 52 at all. What a joke (outside of some Batman).

Agreed, and your last comment is one of the biggest reasons why it was a joke. Only Batman and GL books went largely untouched by the New 52. DC/WB's execs were concerned about sales of every other character but a reboot wasn't the solution. Same day digital could have still happened and new writers could have taken over titles to create new interest. Johns and Lee were going to be on a JL title before a reboot was even considered. The Superman titles just needed to be left alone with a creator who had a love for the character and his world and a vision for where the books should go.

All that said, DC really should have used the Earth One format with the New 52 creators. Morrison on Superman, Snyder on Batman, and so forth. Imagine what those creators could have done in a new universe without any continuity concerns? The main DCU could have continued separately in monthly titles and the Earth One books could have built a new DCU that would probably have sold extremely well.

Make it take place on a whole new Earth (Earth-52?) so that it didn't replace / displace any previous histories.

Precisely. There was no reason to gut the DCU simply to do a reboot.

I honestly wouldn't have done it. I think DC was far from a state of mess and confusion that demanded a reboot. Especially one where you picked and choosed what you were going to reboot and what you weren't.

Peace

Precisely. The DCU was in good shape overall except for the Superman titles, Justice League, and a few other areas. Johns and Lee were going to be on JL even before a reboot was planned and maybe Morrison could have done something with Superman that would have erased the awful taste left by New Krypton.

[superduperman]

My opinion was always that it should have been an Ultimates style line. Barring that as an option, I think there are a number of things they could have done different that would have helped it's chances of success.

1) Have the stories follow the logical path fans want and expect. Make motions to have characters like Clark and Lois or Ollie and Dinah get together. This is what fans wanted. To see Superman and WW get together really hampered a lot of expectations. Fans wanted to see at least some return to status quo.

2) Have a "Didio rangler". Didio put way too much stock in his own ability to sell people on anything. His hatred of sidekicks and allowing characters to move forward in life was unreasonable in the modern day. This isn't the 1950s anymore and one of the biggest reasons Marvel was kicking DC's ass in the seventies was the fact that they allowed their characters to actually have mature relationships. The further out was get from Didio's tenure, the more ridiculous a lot of his demands and his controlling behavior looks. Speaking of...

3) Find a role for Wally and Donna. Do they have to be as old as they were in the previous continuity? Not necessarily. The most logical solution would be to have the original Titans exist in some form early on and they broke up for some reason. Give them different names if you must. But outright removing popular characters from continuity and just assuming you can talk fans out of liking them was just ridiculous.

4) Actually listen to writers and others who might have some good ideas to make your new ideas work. So many of the horror stories we heard coming out of DC at that time were how much control the editors had. Let the writers interact and solve continuity inconsistencies. You're asking these people to build your universe for you. At least listen to what they have to say and work together.

5) Don't try to keep stories from the previous continuity. Especially if the timeline is only five years. This was the same mistake they made with COIE. This is how we got all the problems with Donna and the Hawks and the Legion.

New 52 was a tough sell to begin with. They went into it thinking "You'll thank us later". That's not how you go into an idea you know is controversial.

[Digifiend]

Make it take place on a whole new Earth (Earth-52?) so that it didn't replace / displace any previous histories.

Yeah, it should've been like Marvel's Ultimate Universe, and not fully replaced New Earth.

Have the line split equally between New DC and Classic DC.

New DC books (not a complete list, there'd be about 25 books in each line):
Batman, starring Bruce, and Dick as Robin.
Superman, with a Clark who's just moved to Metropolis and isn't with Lois yet.
Wonder Woman, with a Diana who just left Paradise Island for Man's World.
Flash, starring Barry and Wallace.
Justice League, new lineup including the main seven, Green Arrow, and Cyborg.
Teen Titans, with a combination of the classic and New Teen Titans members, plus one new character. Robin, Wonder Girl, Kid Flash, Aqualad, Starfire, Raven, Changeling, and Bunker.

Classic DC books:
Action Comics, with married Superman and Lois.
Detective Comics, with Bruce and Damian.
Red Robin, Batgirl, both continued from their 2009 runs.
Flash Family, with Wally as the lead.
Sensation Comics starring Wonder Woman.
Justice League of America
Young Justice (the team that was planned to spin out of Supergirl).

[scary harpy]

The problem with 52 was the same problem with other refreshes/reboots: DC refreshed/rebooted half-assed instead of whole-hearted.

Many good ideas on this thread. The question is: Why Doesn't DC have ideas as good as posters on this thread?!?!

[Kirk Brent]

My opinion was always that it should have been an Ultimates style line.

2) Have a "Didio rangler". Didio put way too much stock in his own ability to sell people on anything. His hatred of sidekicks and allowing characters to move forward in life was unreasonable in the modern day. This isn't the 1950s anymore and one of the biggest reasons Marvel was kicking DC's ass in the seventies was the fact that they allowed their characters to actually have mature relationships. The further out was get from Didio's tenure, the more ridiculous a lot of his demands and his controlling behavior looks. Speaking of...

4) Actually listen to writers and others who might have some good ideas to make your new ideas work. So many of the horror stories we heard coming out of DC at that time were how much control the editors had. Let the writers interact and solve continuity inconsistencies. You're asking these people to build your universe for you. At least listen to what they have to say and work together.

New 52 was a tough sell to begin with. They went into it thinking "You'll thank us later". That's not how you go into an idea you know is controversial.

I kept these three from your original post because they speak to the core problem: Dan DiDio. DiDio admitted he believed the status quo had to be "shaken up" every six months. Patrick Gerard (who I think still posts here) was working at DC in the early 2000s and has confirmed DiDio's "approach," adding that DiDio didn't hate characters like Wally or Dick so much as he wanted to piss off their fans so they would continue to read. This is a warped version of using narrative conflict and salesmanship to keep fans engaged.

DiDio clearly never understood what made DC Comics work. He worked tirelessly to turn it into DC through the lens of Marvel. He wanted to restore the Silver/Bronze Age characters at the cost of Wally, Kyle, Dick, Connor, and any other hero who he saw as "redundant." He wanted no successful relationships, going so far as to say that "superheroes don't deserve to be happy." He was (and very likely still is) a miserable and cynical man whose tenure caused irrevocable damage to DC Comics. Rebirth was the last chance to undo the damage of the New 52 and once DiDio returned from his two year break, Johns' work on Doomsday Clock was stalled (allegedly because of Gary Frank but really because DiDio returned and wanted to put his stamp on a new DCU direction) and Bendis was brought aboard. King and Snyder were encouraged to push their vapid and dark visions and characters like the Titans (especially Wally and Dick) were further damaged.

I'm not entirely sure DC will ever recover from what DiDio did. If WBD cares, they'll do a deep house cleaning and find a way to erase the bulk of what DC has become since "Identity Crisis."

[scary harpy]

I kept these three from your original post because they speak to the core problem: Dan DiDio. DiDio admitted he believed the status quo had to be "shaken up" every six months. Patrick Gerard (who I think still posts here) was working at DC in the early 2000s and has confirmed DiDio's "approach," adding that DiDio didn't hate characters like Wally or Dick so much as he wanted to piss off their fans so they would continue to read. This is a warped version of using narrative conflict and salesmanship to keep fans engaged.

DiDio clearly never understood what made DC Comics work. He worked tirelessly to turn it into DC through the lens of Marvel. He wanted to restore the Silver/Bronze Age characters at the cost of Wally, Kyle, Dick, Connor, and any other hero who he saw as "redundant." He wanted no successful relationships, going so far as to say that "superheroes don't deserve to be happy." He was (and very likely still is) a miserable and cynical man whose tenure caused irrevocable damage to DC Comics. Rebirth was the last chance to undo the damage of the New 52 and once DiDio returned from his two year break, Johns' work on Doomsday Clock was stalled (allegedly because of Gary Frank but really because DiDio returned and wanted to put his stamp on a new DCU direction) and Bendis was brought aboard. King and Snyder were encouraged to push their vapid and dark visions and characters like the Titans (especially Wally and Dick) were further damaged.

I'm not entirely sure DC will ever recover from what DiDio did. If WBD cares, they'll do a deep house cleaning and find a way to erase the bulk of what DC has become since "Identity Crisis."

Many excellent points.

To erase all the mistakes, WBD should return to Pre-Crisis and then go forward.

COIEs was brand new territory, and some missteps were inevitable. (Others, like Hawkworld, were completely avoidable.) Sadly, those mistakes started a cascade errors like falling dominoes.

I feel to clear the wreckage, TPTB should start where the steaming hot mess began.