X-Men #12 Spoilers/Review Thread

[nx01a]

I thought it was Jean making Cordyceps think that rogue got crushed by Polaris hence the blood red.

First Mags crushing Tarn's head with his helmet and now the illusion of Polaris crushing Rogue like a tin can of tomato soup? Lots of brutal deaths in the X-Books lately.

[Saithor]

First Mags crushing Tarn's head with his helmet and now the illusion of Polaris crushing Rogue like a tin can of tomato soup? Lots of brutal deaths in the X-Books lately.

It’s the one aspect of a society without death being an ending the writers have embraced, the ability to unleash a million different brutal and bloody deaths. It’s a way to feed everyone’s tiny little Garth Ennis inside them so it doesn’t take over one day and you aren’t randomly turning heroes into rapist pedophiles and declaring it the masterwork of deconstruction.

Also I completely forgot Judas Traveller was part of Orchis, and I really didn’t need the reminder. Seriously, why are they bringing him back? Literally one of the dumbest characters from one of Marvel’s dumbest stories. Gaah.

Honestly Orchis itself is…it’s there. They exist. I have to disagree with you Habis, what character they did have (wasn’t a whole lot), went away when Hickman left except for individual author’s characters they like (Feilong, Stasis, Brand). I do find the description of their motives as overly simplistic a bit reductive, you can honestly do that with any character. While I don’t necessarily like them and think they’ve been mostly badly utilized, they are at least characters, unlike other villains we’ve had. They are certainly much better than Alocalypse’s rogue magic club or the Hellfire Brats, that’s for sure

[Glio]

The place to question Cyclops about this decision is why did he go on this mission as Cyclops and not Captain Krakoa? But since other members of Orchis have a collection of X-Force corpses, those who would be directing criticism don’t really have a leg to stand on.

Because Stasis already knew that Captain Krakoa was Cyclops. His plan was "If they come after me is because Cyclops is alive".

[Habis]

Oh, it's totally true that Orchis is under-used and under-developed; they are using them far too sparingly; they want Orchis as that terrible existential theat hanging over Krakoa, but at the same time they are scared of allowing them to do anything that could seriously damage Krakoan supremacy, so they are going to keep them on the shelf until they go stale...

But I think the potential is there for a good writer to use them: Taking into account that Krakoa has Sinister, Mystique, Destiny, Shaw, Exodus, Emma and potentially Apocalypse, you could make a good grey-vs-grey/*******-vs-******* war...

[Raz]

I haven't really consistently loved this book, but I gotta say issue 12 was very entertaining!

On one hand it's a shame we're not continuing with this roster for a while, because other than poor Shiro this is the first time I feel like the whole team has clicked so well and all had a chance to shine...on the other hand, I think it's becoming pretty clear which characters Duggan really wants to write and which he doesn't; other than Shiro being sidelined pretty much right off the bat, I think everyone else has had at least a few moments to shine in the past year but some of them are really only one character trait masquerading as a character and that would get old pretty quick.

If we're gonna be doing just superficial cool moments for over half the cast, I think I'd prefer the rotating roster so there's more of a chance of seeing someone a bit more obscure pop up at some stage and have their 15 seconds of fame.

[BobbysWorld]

But I think the potential is there for a good writer to use them: Taking into account that Krakoa has Sinister, Mystique, Destiny, Shaw, Exodus, Emma and potentially Apocalypse, you could make a good grey-vs-grey/*******-vs-******* war...

Except this still continues to neglect the little fact that Orchis - as a mission statement for their entire ORGANIZATION - wants to exterminate mutants as a whole. The presence of bad actors on the Quiet Council and in the planning stages of their conflict with Orchis does not change the fact that mutants as a whole have no reciprocal extermination agenda. And even at most, they might want like, the threat of Orchis dismantled, but that's an perfectly valid reactive position to take with an organization that wants you dead....but again, unlike Orchis itself, mutants as a whole don't have a mass extinction desire for humanity. And no, Magneto saying things in House of X doesn't mean that all mutants agree with even his desire to supplant humanity over time (especially since there's obviously mutants who don't want that and aren't acting towards that outcome, like Iceman, Firestar, etc)....whereas anyone who signs up with Orchis, by virtue of knowing exactly what Orchis is about, is expressing either a desire or at the least a willingness to go along with the whole, y'know, proposed genocide.

Acting like Krakoa vs Orchis is an exchange of grey vs grey morality, using the justification 'some Krakoans are bad' is a painfully false equivalency, and like. You really don't see an issue with treating THIS cast and the entire casts of every other book as though they're interchangeable with an organization that has an extinction agenda, just because some INDIVIDUALS on Krakoa's side have ugly agendas?

[Glio]

Except this still continues to neglect the little fact that Orchis - as a mission statement for their entire ORGANIZATION - wants to exterminate mutants as a whole. The presence of bad actors on the Quiet Council and in the planning stages of their conflict with Orchis does not change the fact that mutants as a whole have no reciprocal extermination agenda. And even at most, they might want like, the threat of Orchis dismantled, but that's an perfectly valid reactive position to take with an organization that wants you dead....but again, unlike Orchis itself, mutants as a whole don't have a mass extinction desire for humanity. And no, Magneto saying things in House of X doesn't mean that all mutants agree with even his desire to supplant humanity over time (especially since there's obviously mutants who don't want that and aren't acting towards that outcome, like Iceman, Firestar, etc)....whereas anyone who signs up with Orchis, by virtue of knowing exactly what Orchis is about, is expressing either a desire or at the least a willingness to go along with the whole, y'know, proposed genocide.

Acting like Krakoa vs Orchis is an exchange of grey vs grey morality, using the justification 'some Krakoans are bad' is a painfully false equivalency, and like. You really don't see an issue with treating THIS cast and the entire casts of every other book as though they're interchangeable with an organization that has an extinction agenda, just because some INDIVIDUALS on Krakoa's side have ugly agendas?

Thanks.

In the vote to go to war against ORCHIS, only Magneto, Exodus, and Shaw voted for it. Only three members of the Council voted to exterminate a human organization, not all of humanity, no, just a human organization. The rest voted to seek a peaceful solution, either out of idealism (Kurt, Ororo) or selfish reasons (Mystique, Destiny).

Absolutely every member of ORCHIS has the ultimate goal of exterminating the mutants. Don't destroy Krakoa, destroy the mutants.

In the worst case we are talking about "grey vs black".

[Frobisher]

I like this, but all the big-screen superheroing just feels a bit hollow, even when drawn so well. Cyclops did the right thing, but maybe that's part of the problem - the characters here are so white-bread they can't help but suffer in comparison to the morally complex character work going on in Immortal and Red these days. It might be a zeitgeist thing but even if you go back to splash-page-battle reinventions of The Authority there is a bit more of an inner-darkness to the heroes from their black-ops origins than we're seeing hero (Laura excepted).

[Glio]

I like this, but all the big-screen superheroing just feels a bit hollow, even when drawn so well. Cyclops did the right thing, but maybe that's part of the problem - the characters here are so white-bread they can't help but suffer in comparison to the morally complex character work going on in Immortal and Red these days. It might be a zeitgeist thing but even if you go back to splash-page-battle reinventions of The Authority there is a bit more of an inner-darkness to the heroes from their black-ops origins than we're seeing hero (Laura excepted).

But that's the purpose of these X-Men, right? Cyclops and Jeans grew tired of the Council's moral complexity in X of Swords and decided to create the X-Men as a counterpoint.

The X-Men exist as an idealistic counterweight to the Council. In that sense, I think Immortal X-Men and X-Men complement each other very well, similar to Hickman's Avengers and New Avengers. One series shows you the best of Krakoa, the other the worst. And none of them show you the "real Krakoa", because the real Krakoa is something in between.

[CoCoBandz]

Except this still continues to neglect the little fact that Orchis - as a mission statement for their entire ORGANIZATION - wants to exterminate mutants as a whole. The presence of bad actors on the Quiet Council and in the planning stages of their conflict with Orchis does not change the fact that mutants as a whole have no reciprocal extermination agenda. And even at most, they might want like, the threat of Orchis dismantled, but that's an perfectly valid reactive position to take with an organization that wants you dead....but again, unlike Orchis itself, mutants as a whole don't have a mass extinction desire for humanity. And no, Magneto saying things in House of X doesn't mean that all mutants agree with even his desire to supplant humanity over time (especially since there's obviously mutants who don't want that and aren't acting towards that outcome, like Iceman, Firestar, etc)....whereas anyone who signs up with Orchis, by virtue of knowing exactly what Orchis is about, is expressing either a desire or at the least a willingness to go along with the whole, y'know, proposed genocide.

Acting like Krakoa vs Orchis is an exchange of grey vs grey morality, using the justification 'some Krakoans are bad' is a painfully false equivalency, and like. You really don't see an issue with treating THIS cast and the entire casts of every other book as though they're interchangeable with an organization that has an extinction agenda, just because some INDIVIDUALS on Krakoa's side have ugly agendas?

It's still amazing that this even has to be said.

[charliehustle415]

secret warriors by hickman

i think you mean this and we all know what happened to hickman

[Habis]

Okay, first of all, I said there was "potential for a good grey-vs-grey story", not that they are doing it. I explicitly said that they are under-using and wasting Orchis's potential...

And second:

Cassandra Nova wanted to genocide all mutants too, and she has been allowed in Krakoa.

Xorn wanted to throw all humans into cremation ovens alive, and he is walking freely and is treated like a good guy.

Sinister wanted to wipe both mutants and humans and replace them with his clones.

Apocalypse wanted humans, mutants and everybody else to butcher each other forever for the sake of his own ideals of "evolution".

Selene wanted to conquer the world with an army of mutant zombies and revert Humanity to Palelithic hunter-gatherers...

On the other side, there are plenty of non-genocidal characters who could have been used: Guardian and Gyrich, for example. The Indian scientist who helped Moira become a robot, and the survivors from Terra Verde could have joined too. And I don't think Brand and Feilong are genocidal...

There is potential there... it will probably go to waste, yes, and it is a pity, but it could be done.

[Exodus]

But that's the purpose of these X-Men, right? Cyclops and Jeans grew tired of the Council's moral complexity in X of Swords and decided to create the X-Men as a counterpoint.

The X-Men exist as an idealistic counterweight to the Council. In that sense, I think Immortal X-Men and X-Men complement each other very well, similar to Hickman's Avengers and New Avengers. One series shows you the best of Krakoa, the other the worst. And none of them show you the "real Krakoa", because the real Krakoa is something in between.

I agree with you on this. But I also disagree that the X-team has been depicted as absolutely morally righteous. Synch has used Jean's powers to mind-wipe a journalist, Jean is still struggling from the fact that a version of herself has destroyed an entire planet's population, Laura likes to stab things, Polaris drinks too much coffee, etc.

what separates them from the Council is the desire to do good on a simpler stage and not governing a nation through scheming. I would still prefer if the X-Men are somehow more directly framed as a political opposition. It feels like Jean and Scott rejecting responsibility and to get their hands dirty through politics.

[Exodus]

Okay, first of all, I said there was "potential for a good grey-vs-grey story", not that they are doing it. I explicitly said that they are under-using and wasting Orchis's potential...

And second:

Cassandra Nova wanted to genocide all mutants too, and she has been allowed in Krakoa.

Xorn wanted to throw all humans into cremation ovens alive, and he is walking freely and is treated like a good guy.

Sinister wanted to wipe both mutants and humans and replace them with his clones.

Apocalypse wanted humans, mutants and everybody else to butcher each other forever for the sake of his own ideals of "evolution".

Selene wanted to conquer the world with an army of mutant zombies and revert Humanity to Palelithic hunter-gatherers...

On the other side, there are plenty of non-genocidal characters who could have been used: Guardian and Gyrich, for example. The Indian scientist who helped Moira become a robot, and the survivors from Terra Verde could have joined too. And I don't think Brand and Feilong are genocidal...

There is potential there... it will probably go to waste, yes, and it is a pity, but it could be done.

Allowing many of those mutants on Krakoa has also "de-radicalizes" them and their violent agendas to conquer earth. Many of them have stopped to want to kill all humans. That's a plus in my book.

Also:

Which Sinister clone?
Cassandra Nova is still a monster.
Xorn was possessed by Sublime.
Selene was killed by the Council.

[Glio]

I agree with you on this. But I also disagree that the X-team has been depicted as absolutely morally righteous. Synch has used Jean's powers to mind-wipe a journalist, Jean is still struggling from the fact that a version of herself has destroyed an entire planet's population, Laura likes to stab things, Polaris drinks too much coffee, etc.

what separates them from the Council is the desire to do good on a simpler stage and not governing a nation through scheming. I would still prefer if the X-Men are somehow more directly framed as a political opposition. It feels like Jean and Scott rejecting responsibility and to get their hands dirty through politics.

I share that reading with you in part: Jean and Cyclops have decided not to get involved with the government of Krakoa and in a way, they are avoiding some moral responsibility.

Another argument is: Internal reform rarely works and you may end up complicit instead of fixing things from within.

And both readings fit me with the characters. Cyclops knows better than anyone how much you have to dirty your hands leading a mutant nation, it seems natural for him to say "No, this time I won't be the one to carry that weight". Jean has seen the worst of Krakoa in X-Force.