X-Men #12 Spoilers/Review Thread

[Grinning Soul]

The only potential person I see working with Orchis that could be morally grey is Abigail Brand, because her motivations are to protect much more than any single group. She is still going down a very, very dark and slippery slope, and I think her story currently fits better with watching a character fall from grey to black than maintaining one's position, but it could be done.

Orchis as a whole though? There is no grey when your goal is "Kill them! All of them! For the crime of merely being born!".

[I'm kinda busy in real life, so I'll reply and log off again. Maybe I can check back in 15 min, maybe it will take 4 hours... Who knows? Apologies in advance]

Before I tell you of a possible scenario I thought of when I read Habis's last message, let me repeat this: as Orchis has been described so far, as an organization, I can't really present them as morally grey either.

But I'm still curious in case someone can! :)

Now... as an individual antagonist, being the leader of a smaller conflict against Krakoa? Yeah. I think it could, in theory, be done.

Imagine a person has a problem with Krakoa's policy of diplomatic immunity to all mutants. Imagine this person, for whatever reason, is truly compelled to do something about it. They try every way they can think of (including trying to talk to mutant ambassadors and heroes) without avail. Eventually, they come to the conclusion that Krakoa will not change, so the problem is the Krakoa nation itself and the only way they can actually fight existence of Krakoa (not the existence of mutants) is to join Orchis.

Now, perhaps this person is not seeing other alternatives because they're exhausted, perhaps they were always too desperate to be able to see it (depending on what compelled them to act in the first place). It doesn't matter. What matters is that they got to that conclusion.

Here is the thing. If this individual started as a morally sound person, they'll become, at the very least, morally grey at the moment they actually join Orchis. Because, sure, even if they tell themselves they'll only be using Orchis' resources to help take Krakoa down and nothing more, they have to know Orchis will most certainly not stop there. A person with a good moral compass would not think this is the lesser of two evils.

A person with a good moral compass sometimes is able to lie to themselves, though, so they can do something they despise. It still harms their morals, but they'll keep telling themselves they're justified (and that, if well executed, could be gold by itself).

So there we have it: a compelling antagonist who one could argue is evil by association, but who doesn't want to kill or enslave mutants. Someone you could understand the motivation even if you disagree with their perspective and their methods.

Is it possible to write such a story? Yes. But it's very tricky. I suppose it's easier to execute it in a novel. Only a very good comic book writer can pull this off using the comic book medium.

[Saithor]

The only potential person I see working with Orchis that could be morally grey is Abigail Brand, because her motivations are to protect much more than any single group. She is still going down a very, very dark and slippery slope, and I think her story currently fits better with watching a character fall from grey to black than maintaining one's position, but it could be done.

Orchis as a whole though? There is no grey when your goal is "Kill them! All of them! For the crime of merely being born!".

Arguably Hudson, for the all of like five minutes I think he was with the group.

Brand’s a weird bird, it wasn’t on here but I remember during the last Annilhation having a lot of fights with people over her actions in preventing Hulkling’s distress calls from reaching anyone but Krakoa and timing her entrance to be when Hulkling himself was almost killed and definitely getting a lot of his subjects killed because of it. Those defenders flipped when she got revealed as wanting to support Orchis, so it taught me a good lesson about Internet fandoms.

I do wonder if that plot point is ever going to come up. I imagine it could be the trump card to get Hulkling involved in the war against Orchis, and maybe now someone will finally blow up that stupid satiliete.

[CapCyke]

very great points. I just wished the authors would have pointed out more clearly that Jean followed a different political imaginary what a nation could be. Because just a comic series earlier (X-Men: Red) she started to develop a new concept for it. She had a contrasting vision what Krakoa could be beyond a nation state that is geographically defined. Hence, because of the lack of arguments it feels more like argument 1 for me: "Honey, let's just return to some old status-quo where the world was still a little simpler."

Cyclops as well could have given a clear voice what he wants to see and what he learned from his own mistakes. Jean and Cyclops are clearly in opposition but we never really understand why.

Krakoa and its government is barely formed. I think "internal reforms from within" is definitely still a possibility because the institution is not a historically grown one. The government was simply implemented by its leaders a year earlier...

I think Jean and Scott's idea is "we understand what needs to be done to make Krakoa work, but we don't want to be forced to act under their control."

We have no point of view on how they would like Krakoa to be, because they don't want to play politics. An old school vision as you say. Scott in an issue of Hickman's Xmen says it at one point I think.

Besides Cyke does not wonder how the Council will react, he is "afraid" that the citizens of Krakoa think he was wrong.

[Saithor]

I think Jean and Scott's idea is "we understand what needs to be done to make Krakoa work, but we don't want to be forced to act under their control."

We have no point of view on how they would like Krakoa to be, because they don't want to play politics. An old school vision as you say. Scott in an issue of Hickman's Xmen says it at one point I think.

Besides Cyke does not wonder how the Council will react, he is "afraid" that the citizens of Krakoa think he was wrong.

I mean if I was Scott Summers I really wouldn’t care what Apocalypse, Mystique, Sebastian Shaw, Exodus, and Mr Sinister thought of me.

[BobbysWorld]

LOL I'm not disinterested in narratives other than absolute evil vs absolute good, I'm just disinterested in calling 'defending against a group trying to wipe out an entire people' and 'being part of a group trying to wipe out an entire people' equivalent morality.

But sure, I'm the one being reductive here. Spin it however you want, but I'm not the one saying 'Orchis might have some points here.' Now, I'm in complete agreement that lots of the Quiet Council are shitty people. And if they ever take the story to a point where characters like Shaw and Exodus are saying 'we should totally wipe out humanity because of Orchis," guess what? I will absolutely stop saying 'The mutant characters have some points here.'

But so long as the narrative is still defined by Orchis characters saying 'we should totally wipe out all mutants because bad and dangerous mutants exist,' I will continue to object to thinking Orchis is making any kind of actual point there, no matter that bad and dangerous mutants do in fact exist. Similarly, as long as the Krakoan side of the narrative is still defined by mutant characters saying 'we should totally stop the genocidal organization from wiping out all mutants at whatever cost necessary to the genocidal organization that is actively being genocidal and only includes characters who have of their own free will decided hey its fine to be genocidal'? I'm going to continue to think that no, on this particular matter, even the worst mutant characters I know of actually do in fact have a valid point, so long as it doesn't extend to humans outside of the willing participants of the actively genocidal organization.

My refusal to see any nuance or ambiguity in conversations that revolve around LITERAL GENOCIDAL AGENDAS does not mean I'm incapable of seeing or appreciating nuance or ambiguity, thanks.

It means I just happen to think conversations that revolve around an organization promoting a literal genocidal agenda?

Kind of a weird freaking place to be looking for nuance or ambiguity.

[Saithor]

I never said they had a point. Nor did I say they were nuanced. I was opposed to the actions of Brand before she even joined Orchis. I am saying there is more to their characters than being a racist and that is what makes Orchis better villains than the Hellfire Brats and Appcalypse’s magic trick club. Low bar that it is.

Grey on Grey conflict is honestly the wrong term for what aha is describes, he’s describing Grey on Black and even then for a very limited number of mutants, which may increase depending on if the Blue Man Group’s missing member is involved or not

[CapCyke]

I mean if I was Scott Summers I really wouldn’t care what Apocalypse, Mystique, Sebastian Shaw, Exodus, and Mr Sinister thought of me.

Of course haha. I was mainly talking about those who really have an interest in the success of Krakoa like Emma, ​​Xavier or Ororo.

[BobbysWorld]

I never said they had a point. Nor did I say they were nuanced. I was opposed to the actions of Brand before she even joined Orchis. I am saying there is more to their characters than being a racist and that is what makes Orchis better villains than the Hellfire Brats and Appcalypse’s magic trick club. Low bar that it is.

Grey on Grey conflict is honestly the wrong term for what aha is describes, he’s describing Grey on Black and even then for a very limited number of mutants, which may increase depending on if the Blue Man Group’s missing member is involved or not

LOL for what its worth, I can totally understand you assuming I was directing that at you, given our past clashes, so sorry for not being clear and quoting the posts I was replying to directly. That was aimed at Habis, and had absolutely nothing to do with your convo about Brand.

[Saithor]

Of course haha. I was mainly talking about those who really have an interest in the success of Krakoa like Emma, ​​Xavier or Ororo.

Eh I’m not sure on Chuck. Even ignoring all the things writers have had him be responsible for over the years, from a purely Krakoan era perspective he’s the one who not only decided the government should be an unelected council of oligarchs accountable to no one that he deliberately arranged to try and ensure he had control over (Colussus was literally only brought on the council so he’d have a vote he could count on to tip the balance), he also doesn’t really think about state-building. He seems to have a tendency when approached by a group of mutants about something he forgot (Nightcrawler, New Mutants), his default response seems to be “Ah, that, yes. Well, you have a point, and the fact that you noticed is proof you are qualified to fix it, so I leave this issue in your capable hands!”

[Saithor]

LOL for what its worth, I can totally understand you assuming I was directing that at you, given our past clashes, so sorry for not being clear and quoting the posts I was replying to directly. That was aimed at Habis, and had absolutely nothing to do with your convo about Brand.

Nah that’s on me. I assumed it was directed at me because I was originally the one who made the reductive comment. It’s all good.

[BobbysWorld]

Nah that’s on me. I assumed it was directed at me because I was originally the one who made the reductive comment. It’s all good.

Oh I actually totally missed that. I've just had the word 'reductive' stuck in my brain on a loop ever since Legion of X #2 because of Ora Serrata's damn speech patterns.

[Habis]

Interesting. But, please, allow me to play devil's advocate here.

I can imagine possibilities in which *individual* antagonists (or a sub-section of Orchis) could drive a smaller conflict against Krakoa that could be presented as nuanced and morally grey. But I can't see how Orchis, as an organization, could possibly be presented that way without making some changes to its core first.

So if you forget about Krakoa and its citizens and focus on Orchis only, would you answer those two questions?

1) Can you imagine a way to present current Orchis, as an organization, that could be understood as nuanced and morally grey?

2) And if so, how would you describe it?

Even though I can't see it, I'm really open-minded on this issue. I'm genuinely curious.

Since Orchis was formed by members from SHIELD, AIM, SWORD...etc., only after Krakoa was founded, I can see many of its recruits as people who are very scared of Apocalypse, Magneto, Selene, Exodus, Mr. Sinister...etc., as opposed to just hating mutants; think of Hudson.

I can see lots of people in SHIELD and SWORD learning about Apocalypse and Magneto being in the QC and going "****! WE ARE GOING TO DIE, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!".

There is also the people from Terra Verde, and anybody who learned about what Beast did there and how he was trying to spread the Floronic Plague among the leaders of of other country... that is a justified casus belli...

Among Orchis's leadership, I don't think Abigail Brand wants to genocide mutants. Feilong could still go either way, he might be satisfied just with humans claiming sovereignity over the Sol System, as opposed to wanting to kill all mutants.

Even Killian Devo could still be portrayed as somebody who could want to avoid mutant supremacy (maybe by "vaccinating" children against mutation, the technology already exists; the only reason it isn't used is Dark Beast sabotage) as opposed to wanted to slaughter all mutants.

If Hudson and Gyrich or somebody like them were still with Orchis, they could be, together with Abigail Brand and Feilong, part of a more moderate, less genocidal faction within Orchis.

If you had Beast, Mystique and Sinisrer doing their usual atrocities against people who align with Orchis, they would be justifying and reinforcing the fears of these people who sided with Orchis out of fear...

[Grinning Soul]

Since Orchis was formed by members from SHIELD, AIM, SWORD...etc., only after Krakoa was founded, I can see many of its recruits as people who are very scared of Apocalypse, Magneto, Selene, Exodus, Mr. Sinister...etc., as opposed to just hating mutants; think of Hudson.

I can see lots of people in SHIELD and SWORD learning about Apocalypse and Magneto being in the QC and going "****! WE ARE GOING TO DIE, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!".

There is also the people from Terra Verde, and anybody who learned about what Beast did there and how he was trying to spread the Floronic Plague among the leaders of of other country... that is a justified casus belli...

Among Orchis's leadership, I don't think Abigail Brand wants to genocide mutants. Feilong could still go either way, he might be satisfied just with humans claiming sovereignity over the Sol System, as opposed to wanting to kill all mutants.

Even Killian Devo could still be portrayed as somebody who could want to avoid mutant supremacy (maybe by "vaccinating" children against mutation, the technology already exists; the only reason it isn't used is Dark Beast sabotage) as opposed to wanted to slaughter all mutants.

If Hudson and Gyrich or somebody like them were still with Orchis, they could be, together with Abigail Brand and Feilong, part of a more moderate, less genocidal faction within Orchis.

If you had Beast, Mystique and Sinisrer doing their usual atrocities against people who align with Orchis, they would be justifying and reinforcing the fears of these people who sided with Orchis out of fear...

Thanks for answering. But again: those members you mentioned are either individuals or a sub-faction inside Orchis. It's not the organization as a whole, right?

[JB]

Since Orchis was formed by members from SHIELD, AIM, SWORD...etc., only after Krakoa was founded, I can see many of its recruits as people who are very scared of Apocalypse, Magneto, Selene, Exodus, Mr. Sinister...etc., as opposed to just hating mutants; think of Hudson.

I can see lots of people in SHIELD and SWORD learning about Apocalypse and Magneto being in the QC and going "****! WE ARE GOING TO DIE, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!".

There is also the people from Terra Verde, and anybody who learned about what Beast did there and how he was trying to spread the Floronic Plague among the leaders of of other country... that is a justified casus belli...

Among Orchis's leadership, I don't think Abigail Brand wants to genocide mutants. Feilong could still go either way, he might be satisfied just with humans claiming sovereignity over the Sol System, as opposed to wanting to kill all mutants.

Even Killian Devo could still be portrayed as somebody who could want to avoid mutant supremacy (maybe by "vaccinating" children against mutation, the technology already exists; the only reason it isn't used is Dark Beast sabotage) as opposed to wanted to slaughter all mutants.

If Hudson and Gyrich or somebody like them were still with Orchis, they could be, together with Abigail Brand and Feilong, part of a more moderate, less genocidal faction within Orchis.

If you had Beast, Mystique and Sinisrer doing their usual atrocities against people who align with Orchis, they would be justifying and reinforcing the fears of these people who sided with Orchis out of fear...

A few things. Orchis was formed based off of Gregor's "The Cro-Magnon problem". They began watching mutants two years before Krakoa was established, which then initiated the enacting of the Orchis Protocol which was already planned for. They realized humanity had 20 years left before mutants became the dominant species. So this was all in place before the Quiet Council was formed, etc. The purpose of Orchis is to stop mutants from becoming the dominant species.

However all of that got mixed up when we learned in Inferno that Omega Sentinel came from the future to form Orchis, with Devo who she influenced. Her goal was to see Nimrod come online early and prevent her future from coming to pass, a future where "mutants win." So the eradication of mutants is the goal. It's possible though that Devo may one day realize how OS influenced him.

[mugen]

Since Orchis was formed by members from SHIELD, AIM, SWORD...etc., only after Krakoa was founded, I can see many of its recruits as people who are very scared of Apocalypse, Magneto, Selene, Exodus, Mr. Sinister...etc., as opposed to just hating mutants; think of Hudson.

I can see lots of people in SHIELD and SWORD learning about Apocalypse and Magneto being in the QC and going "****! WE ARE GOING TO DIE, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!".

There is also the people from Terra Verde, and anybody who learned about what Beast did there and how he was trying to spread the Floronic Plague among the leaders of of other country... that is a justified casus belli...

Among Orchis's leadership, I don't think Abigail Brand wants to genocide mutants. Feilong could still go either way, he might be satisfied just with humans claiming sovereignity over the Sol System, as opposed to wanting to kill all mutants.

Even Killian Devo could still be portrayed as somebody who could want to avoid mutant supremacy (maybe by "vaccinating" children against mutation, the technology already exists; the only reason it isn't used is Dark Beast sabotage) as opposed to wanted to slaughter all mutants.

If Hudson and Gyrich or somebody like them were still with Orchis, they could be, together with Abigail Brand and Feilong, part of a more moderate, less genocidal faction within Orchis.

If you had Beast, Mystique and Sinisrer doing their usual atrocities against people who align with Orchis, they would be justifying and reinforcing the fears of these people who sided with Orchis out of fear...

orchis was created by karima to exterminate mutants, the majority of members are part of AIM a terrorist group and even in the shield and the sword there are anti-mutants.

Can't see it from their 1st appearance in hox that they're bad, don't forget also hickman's 1st x-men issue with storm, cyclops and magneto attacking an orchid base because they kidnapped mutant children to kill them... in giant size thunderbird orchis kidnaps mutant families to kill them, dissect them and recover their DNA it is no longer fear that drives them but only hatred they really have to be monsters to do that .

As I said Abigail's behavior no longer makes sense to me, this betrayal is just Al Ewing's mistake, bad characterization I don't understand what he is doing with her.

Abigail uses orchis for her own plan, she also wants to destroy krakoa without explanation but she knows very well that the goal of orchis is mutant genocide she suspects that they will not be content to destroy krakoa by leaving mutants alive and I don't see how she will stop them from doing so.

Can't say that feilong is gray, it's the cliché of the guy who rejects his failure on mutants, then he keeps Kurt's corpse as a trophy on phobos...

Since krakoa orchis started killing way more mutants and humans than sinister, apocalypse or mystic combined, they haven't even killed a human it seems to me.

We could understand senator kelly's fear for mutants in the 90s with magneto and mystic for example, kelly was a pretty gray character but orchis sorry they're just monsters just read stasis' comments on mutants in the last page x-men 12 to be convinced.