Are certain writers too misinformed about WW when they make power ranks?

[Gaius]

This was settled, back in the John Byrne run on WW and the Morrison run on JLA. It was settled, by editorial mandate. "Wonder Woman second in power only to Superman." Any rankings list, that doesn't acknowledge that is trash, to be ignored and publicly derided and dismissed.

I think we just have to accept that some casual readers, who think themselves experts, subscribe to the "Kryptonians and anyone, who reminds of us Superman, are second in power to NONE." It's so lazy, as we see it, but, we're outnumbered and out-penned in a world, where anybody can get on social media and type any silly thing, they want - then, label it "Official".

"Kryptonians and Captain Marvel are superior to EVERYONE, especially Wonder Woman." That's what they think they know, and stories written by writers, typically male ones, who just HATE Wonder Woman - they totally do - continue to undermine that editorial mandate, ..if there is such a thing, anymore.

Today's comic editors don't really mandate very much, as in the Stan Lee days. They invite freelance, celebrity writers/artists to do a run, sometimes, after being called or approached by the writer or his representative (agent, mgr, etc). The writer is asked what he or she would like to do, and the writer pitches something. Typically, outside of the WW comic, if the pitch involves Cheshire bidj-slapping Wonder Woman, alternately the daughter of Zeus or the avatar of a Gaia (the Earth), ..the modern editors are fine with it, and I think some of them might even welcome it...

Because there clearly are people in the comic industry, who straight-up HATE Wonder Woman, the way some Americans straight-up hated Secretary Hillary Clinton, in 2016. Too often, we Wonderfans don't account for the unquantifiable, irrational hatred of female authority in our nation and in popular literature, ..in fans and creators, alike. It makes NO sense, and all we can do is trash it, every time we see it.

Look alive, Kangaliers!

Ye, no reason WW should have to bend the knee to accommodate Supergirl just because she shares DNA with Superman.

[Mel Dyer]

Ye, no reason WW should have to bend the knee to accommodate Supergirl just because she shares DNA with Superman.

I agree, entirely. I don't feel the need to be so scholarly and balanced in my consideration of Wonder Woman's power-ranking, and I'll tell you why.

The power of the Greek gods doesn't seem to go as far, when non-fans consider Wonder Woman, as when they consider SHAZAM (Captain Marvel), ..created to be a light-hearted, Sunday Funnies tone answer to Superman. Captain Marvel, by comparison, is a sillier character - intentionally comedic, from conception - but, Wonder Woman had sure better stay in her place, when she's trading punches, with him, Mary Marvel and their Kryptonian inspirations, ..Big Blue and family. Now, you can be as fair and intellectual, as you like about it, weighing all sides and stuff, ..but, what's happening here is sexism and misogyny, plain and simple...

And it stinks.

Don't even get me started on how writers treat Wonder Woman's supervillains. [Eyes rollin] I can understand a writer hates or feels dismissive of Wonder Woman, and makes her look weak in a story, ..but, should that extend to her villains, too? Everybody else's villains can just beat the crap out of Cheetah or whoever, just because they fight Wonder Woman - seriously? That's not right, and we know it.

Do we love Wonder Woman...think she's the cat's pajamas? Well, she's second-in-power, only to Superman.

That doesn't have to make sense, kangaliers; it just is what it is, because John Byrne and Grant Morrison said it, and it was an editorial mandate, ..and she's our girl. That's all that should matter. I hate it, that we're the ones, who have to be so reasonable and accommodating, on the 'who wins if' thing, all the time. Why us? Why are Wonder Woman fans always taking one for the team?

As I see it, until very recently, no matter if it's a woman or a magic-user, like Wonder Woman, ..if she's against a Kryptonian or a superhuman male, Wonder Woman's got to lose! That's not right, and I don't think we should abide it, with such gentility, all the time.

[WonderLight789]

I agree, entirely. I don't feel the need to be so scholarly and balanced in my consideration of Wonder Woman's power-ranking, and I'll tell you why.

The power of the Greek gods doesn't seem to go as far, when non-fans consider Wonder Woman, as when they consider SHAZAM (Captain Marvel), ..created to be a light-hearted, Sunday Funnies tone answer to Superman. Captain Marvel, by comparison, is a sillier character - intentionally comedic, from conception - but, Wonder Woman had sure better stay in her place, when she's trading punches, with him, Mary Marvel and their Kryptonian inspirations, ..Big Blue and family. Now, you can be as fair and intellectual, as you like about it, weighing all sides and stuff, ..but, what's happening here is sexism and misogyny, plain and simple...

And it stinks.

Don't even get me started on how writers treat Wonder Woman's supervillains. [Eyes rollin] I can understand a writer hates or feels dismissive of Wonder Woman, and makes her look weak in a story, ..but, should that extend to her villains, too? Everybody else's villains can just beat the crap out of Cheetah or whoever, just because they fight Wonder Woman - seriously? That's not right, and we know it.

Do we love Wonder Woman...think she's the cat's pajamas? Well, she's second-in-power, only to Superman.

That doesn't have to make sense, kangaliers; it just is what it is, because John Byrne and Grant Morrison said it, and it was an editorial mandate, ..and she's our girl. That's all that should matter. I hate it, that we're the ones, who have to be so reasonable and accommodating, on the 'who wins if' thing, all the time. Why us? Why are Wonder Woman fans always taking one for the team?

As I see it, until very recently, no matter if it's a woman or a magic-user, like Wonder Woman, ..if she's against a Kryptonian or a superhuman male, Wonder Woman's got to lose! That's not right, and I don't think we should abide it, with such gentility, all the time.

Her trackrecord against kryptonians is not bad at all. But what you said about sexism and double standards is very true. Which is why we should treat this topic seriously. Some people don't pay enough attention to how sexism has been a factor in the way she is treated.

[Mel Dyer]

Her trackrecord against kryptonians is not bad at all. But what you said about sexism and double standards is very true. Which is why we should treat this topic seriously. Some people don't pay enough attention to how sexism has been a factor in the way she is treated.

If Krypton and Fourth World beats Greek god magic, when it comes to Wonder Woman, to boost her, ..the logical editorial solution would be to exhibit her Greek god power-brokers, as being comparably powerful to those other power sources.

If Zeus and Hera are consistently featured in stories, as being on par with or superior to [Say...] Darkseid, Wonder Woman might, at least, be seen as equal to their other trustee, Shazam (Captain Marvel). That logic holds, until we look at how Captain Marvel's superior power is portrayed, compared to Wonder Woman's. While most writers wouldn't think about showing Power Girl or Supergirl besting Captain Marvel in a fight, they're fine with showing Wonder Woman barely matching Supergirl, ..leaving fans, outside of our fandom, dismissing WW's win, as editorially wrong. That looks like sexism, to me; if it is, there is nothing writers/editors can do, except enforce the 'second only to Big Blue' mandate ..and enforce it, again and again...

Until fan-minds are trained not to look at Wonder Woman, like crap.

Zeus, Hera or Gaia or somebody in Wonder Woman's power-brokerage must be consistently shown, in stories, to be a match for or superior-in-power to Superman, Captain Marvel and Darkseid. Only then, will Wonder Woman's power be treated by writers, with a modicum of respect.

[WonderLight789]

If Krypton and Fourth World beats Greek god magic, when it comes to Wonder Woman, to boost her, ..the logical editorial solution would be to exhibit her Greek god power-brokers, as being comparably powerful to those other power sources.

If Zeus and Hera are consistently featured in stories, as being on par with or superior to [Say...] Darkseid, Wonder Woman might, at least, be seen as equal to their other trustee, Shazam (Captain Marvel). That logic holds, until we look at how Captain Marvel's superior power is portrayed, compared to Wonder Woman's. While most writers wouldn't think about showing Power Girl or Supergirl besting Captain Marvel in a fight, they're fine with showing Wonder Woman barely matching Supergirl, ..leaving fans, outside of our fandom, dismissing WW's win, as editorially wrong. That looks like sexism, to me; if it is, there is nothing writers/editors can do, except enforce the 'second only to Big Blue' mandate ..and enforce it, again and again...

Until fan-minds are trained not to look at Wonder Woman, like crap.

Zeus, Hera or Gaia or somebody in Wonder Woman's power-brokerage must be consistently shown, in stories, to be a match for or superior-in-power to Superman, Captain Marvel and Darkseid. Only then, will Wonder Woman's power be treated by writers, with a modicum of respect.

Actually. Shazam hasn't been given great feats of powers for more than a decade now. Most of his glory comes from his portrayed in Kingdom Come when it comes to people that view him as equal to Superman.

Wonder Woman has had a great trackrecord against Supergirl. And has besat her multiple times without much difficulty. Which is why it is strange to see lists like the latest one, ranking SG above her. It is so obvious that she only gets extra credit for having the same dna as superman. When in reality, she is not on par with him. Neither is powergirl who WW also beat in combat. But those 2 get extra points that they don't deserve based on their own feats, only because they are kryptonians. Which proves that a lo of people that make these lists don't know much about the actual feats and capabilities of the characters they are trying to rank. They think that just because a character is also a kryptonian, they are comparable to Superman in power, and that is far away from the truth.

Wonder Woman even had a good showing against Darkseid one on one. But overall, we still have to deal with certain writers that think of her as less compared to characters that don't have her own level of feats. All because DC has never cared to pay attention to WW as much as Supoerman. But SM is far from being their biggest money maker now. And WW has shown great potential at making money lately. So it is time she gets better treatment.

[Pinsir]

I would argue that any writer that believes in 'power ranks' is misinformed.

[Mel Dyer]

Mystical, you'll probably want to look up 80s issues of the DC Presents comic. That's where the 'Superman vs Shazam' interest started, inspiring quite the avalanche of fan mail requests - real hand-written letters, then. It was followed, by another meeting in All-Star Squadron and still another in WOGs, I think. Kingdom Come came, later.

Where super-power is concerned, Kryptonian beats all, and that stinks.

[Alpha]

I would argue that any writer that believes in 'power ranks' is misinformed.

I would argue you are correct

[DochaDocha]

Power ranks are fine in principal, but it's hard to communicate the complexity of them in comics. For instance, if the third-ranked fighter went up against the seventh-ranked fighter and you simulated 10 battles, the seventh-ranked fighter would probably win a handful of fights, but comic book fights forces you to play with such a small sample size, and nobody wants the conclusion of a fight to include dialogue like, "If we fought nine more times, I'd lose them all."

[BiteTheBullet]

Power ranks are fine in principal, but it's hard to communicate the complexity of them in comics. For instance, if the third-ranked fighter went up against the seventh-ranked fighter and you simulated 10 battles, the seventh-ranked fighter would probably win a handful of fights, but comic book fights forces you to play with such a small sample size, and nobody wants the conclusion of a fight to include dialogue like, "If we fought nine more times, I'd lose them all."

Or we get writers like in League of One stating that Diana can't beat Superman. Instead of using her superior martial abilities to make up for any strength liabilities against Supes, he just plain out states that she can't beat him. Great writing!

[hareluyafan1]

I would argue that any writer that believes in 'power ranks' is misinformed.

I would argue you are correct

I would respectfully disagree with you both.

I'm all in favour of a certain flexibility. Like if say Character A can lift 2000 pounds and Character B can lift 2010, then B is "stronger" but does it really matter? Likewise no-one is going to perform at their absolute best every single time. Characters (like real people) can have off-days where they just aren't on top of their game, or conversely can have days where they're on especially good form so do better than normal. I get that.

But there needs to be consistency too. If say Green Arrow knocks out Zod with a single punch, would you be cool with that? No in-story explanation, no "Zod is weakened by red sun rays," or "Green Arrow is wearing an amulet that gives him super-power," or something. Regular Green Arrow just knocks out regular Zod with a single punch because the writer wanted him to. Again, would you be cool with that?

"Power ranks" may seem limiting, but they're not. They actually open up possibilities because they require a writer to use their imagination. Take for example, one of my favourite anime series "Princess Resurrection." In one episode Liza Wildman has to fight a pure-bood werewolf empowered by the Flame of Life. He's bigger, he's stronger, he's more experienced, his wounds regenerate rapidly. Yet when Liza beats him it still makes perfect sense. Why? Because he underestimated her and was toying around instead of going for the kill immediately. Even then it was a long hard fight where moments after beating him she collapsed from exhaustion. Her victory was immensely satisfying to watch because it showed her willpower and grit.

As a writer myself one of the most fun parts of writing fight scenes is coming up with a plausible way for an underdog to win against a more powerful foe. And to achieve that you need "Power ranks." You need to establish that A is more powerful than B so that when B finds a way to beat him it's so much more satisfying for both the writer and the readers.

[phonogram12]

Power ranks are fine in principal, but it's hard to communicate the complexity of them in comics. For instance, if the third-ranked fighter went up against the seventh-ranked fighter and you simulated 10 battles, the seventh-ranked fighter would probably win a handful of fights, but comic book fights forces you to play with such a small sample size, and nobody wants the conclusion of a fight to include dialogue like, "If we fought nine more times, I'd lose them all."

In theory I think they work, but if strictly adhered to, would make stories incredibly boring and predictable, which is the last thing most writers (at least most good writers) want to do.