Avengers vs. X-Men: A Clash Of Heroes (That Nobody Won) - A Mini-Documentary

[MarvelMaster616]

For the past couple months, I've been hard at work on a mini-documentary for my YouTube Channel, Jack's World. I've posted videos from it before on this board. And I'm excited to share this one.

Now, I know Avengers vs. X-Men is a bit of a touchy subject for X-Men fans. I was on this Board the year it came out. I remember the many "mixed" reactions it got when it ended. And I understand that sentiment because it started off so well. It was one of the most exciting crossover events that Marvel had done in years. I thought the first few issues were great. And the tie-ins were just so much fun to watch. But then, the Phoenix Five entered the picture. And then things went downhill from there. A lot has been said about the how and why of those shortcomings. But with AXE: Judgment Day coming out and the X-Men set to clash with two other superhero teams, the time is right to revisit this event and appreciate why it didn't work. Hopefully, AXE turns out better. In the meantime, I hope my fellow X-Men fans enjoy this. As always, I welcome any and all feedback.

[Huntsman Spider]

Thanks for making and sharing this. My own perspective was that the reason neither side "won" was that ultimately, the X-Men were made to look like zealots and extremists willing to risk the planet burning for the sake of their people's revival (if you sided with the Avengers, as Marvel intended at the time), and the Avengers were made to look like sanctimonious, privileged hypocrites with no understanding or care for what their erstwhile mutant allies had endured, particularly due to the actions of one of the Avengers' own, and seemingly willing to condemn said allies to the effective extinction of their people (if you didn't side with the Avengers as Marvel intended at the time). That was just the beginning, and it even got worse halfway through, as the Avengers', particularly Tony Stark's, attempt to kill the Phoenix Force just split it into five pieces that possessed five X-Men and out of fear and ironically zealotry of their own, despite the Phoenix-powered X-Men proceeding to use that newfound power to end famines and wars, they insisted on picking fights with them, which just accelerated their "inevitable" descent into Phoenix Force-induced psychosis as they lashed out at those who continued to hound them despite the good they were trying to do, eventually culminating in a fully Phoenix-possessed and maddened Cyclops killing Charles Xavier and nearly burning the world before the Phoenix was separated from him.

Oh, and not helping matters, either, was how the Avengers used Avengers Academy as an impromptu prison (they called it "protective custody," but still) for the X-Men's students at the Jean Grey School for Higher Learning, out of the reasoning that the mutant kids could be combatants as well --- which ironically justified those siding with Cyclops over Wolverine in the X-Men's "Schism," since as they said, their mutant status meant they'd be seen as targets and threats first and foremost, not as children. In a nutshell, neither side was depicted as all that heroic in this event, even if (in my view), the Avengers came off looking worse, but then that tended to be the problem with a lot of these hero-on-hero events; though one side might be cast as more in the wrong than the other side, both would take actions or be depicted in ways that nonetheless tarnished their standing and character as heroes, or torpedoed any hopes of being seen in a sympathetic light by the readers and fans. Basically, there were (and are) better ways to depict moral ambiguity or gray areas than just making both sides out to be terrible people, but that was the option Marvel went with damn near every time, so . . .

[Jackraow21]

Cable getting sidelined for this event, which was the culmination of the seventeen years he spent raising Hope in the future, was unforgivable to me. He basically gets fully cured of the T-O virus by his daughter who taps into the approaching Phoenix Force (see Avengers: X-Sanction)… just in time to unleash his full mutant power and kick some ass and help her achieve her destiny finally!… and they have him casually slip into a coma for the entirety of the event. WTF!?

For that reason, plus Logan siding against his own family, I hate this event with a passion.

Hoping they don’t f@&$ Cable over in A.X.E. Judgment Day or else screw that event too.

[Huntsman Spider]

Cable getting sidelined for this event, which was the culmination of the seventeen years he spent raising Hope in the future, was unforgivable to me. He basically gets fully cured of the T-O virus by his daughter who taps into the approaching Phoenix Force (see Avengers: X-Sanction)… just in time to unleash his full mutant power and kick some ass and help her achieve her destiny finally!… and they have him casually slip into a coma for the entirety of the event. WTF!?

For that reason, plus Logan siding against his own family, I hate this event with a passion.

Hoping they don’t f@&$ Cable over in A.X.E. Judgment Day or else screw that event too.

That's a good point on Cable. He knew that the Avengers going after Hope could mean total death and destruction for everyone and everything on Earth if they weren't stopped, as it was revealed in Avengers: X-Sanction, hence him trying to take them out before they could, but after all that . . . he just got put in a very convenient coma so Avengers vs. X-Men could keep going without being interrupted by anyone who could decisively prove the Avengers wrong in their self-justifications for going after Hope and cracking down on the X-Men. And yes, Logan siding with the Avengers against his own family just because of his grudge against Cyclops was abominable.

[MarvelMaster616]

Thanks for making and sharing this. My own perspective was that the reason neither side "won" was that ultimately, the X-Men were made to look like zealots and extremists willing to risk the planet burning for the sake of their people's revival (if you sided with the Avengers, as Marvel intended at the time), and the Avengers were made to look like sanctimonious, privileged hypocrites with no understanding or care for what their erstwhile mutant allies had endured, particularly due to the actions of one of the Avengers' own, and seemingly willing to condemn said allies to the effective extinction of their people (if you didn't side with the Avengers as Marvel intended at the time). That was just the beginning, and it even got worse halfway through, as the Avengers', particularly Tony Stark's, attempt to kill the Phoenix Force just split it into five pieces that possessed five X-Men and out of fear and ironically zealotry of their own, despite the Phoenix-powered X-Men proceeding to use that newfound power to end famines and wars, they insisted on picking fights with them, which just accelerated their "inevitable" descent into Phoenix Force-induced psychosis as they lashed out at those who continued to hound them despite the good they were trying to do, eventually culminating in a fully Phoenix-possessed and maddened Cyclops killing Charles Xavier and nearly burning the world before the Phoenix was separated from him.

Oh, and not helping matters, either, was how the Avengers used Avengers Academy as an impromptu prison (they called it "protective custody," but still) for the X-Men's students at the Jean Grey School for Higher Learning, out of the reasoning that the mutant kids could be combatants as well --- which ironically justified those siding with Cyclops over Wolverine in the X-Men's "Schism," since as they said, their mutant status meant they'd be seen as targets and threats first and foremost, not as children. In a nutshell, neither side was depicted as all that heroic in this event, even if (in my view), the Avengers came off looking worse, but then that tended to be the problem with a lot of these hero-on-hero events; though one side might be cast as more in the wrong than the other side, both would take actions or be depicted in ways that nonetheless tarnished their standing and character as heroes, or torpedoed any hopes of being seen in a sympathetic light by the readers and fans. Basically, there were (and are) better ways to depict moral ambiguity or gray areas than just making both sides out to be terrible people, but that was the option Marvel went with damn near every time, so . . .

Thank you very much for your kind words. And I agree. The X-Men were framed poorly in this event. And I think a big reason for that is because this was around the time when Marvel began clashing with Fox over the movie rights. If memory serves me right, this came out right around the time Disney purchased Marvel. And shortly after, the X-Men and F4 were basically marginalized on every level. So, I think in that regard, the X-Men were never going to be allowed to win. It was only about how the Avengers would be elevated. And it honestly wasn't until House of X/Powers of X that the X-Men basically regained what they had lost from this vent.

[MarvelMaster616]

That's a good point on Cable. He knew that the Avengers going after Hope could mean total death and destruction for everyone and everything on Earth if they weren't stopped, as it was revealed in Avengers: X-Sanction, hence him trying to take them out before they could, but after all that . . . he just got put in a very convenient coma so Avengers vs. X-Men could keep going without being interrupted by anyone who could decisively prove the Avengers wrong in their self-justifications for going after Hope and cracking down on the X-Men. And yes, Logan siding with the Avengers against his own family just because of his grudge against Cyclops was abominable.

Thanks for your kind words. And that was something else I found so troubling about the conclusion of AvX. It feels like in the grand scheme of things, everyone ignored the story in X-Sanction. That made it clear to Cyclops and even to Hope that the Avengers were going to doom the planet. If they were allowed to take Hope in any capacity, then the world would be burned to cinder by the Phoenix. That benefit of hindsight is not trivial. And in the end, I think it made Cyclops' actions all the more justified. The fact that nobody really acknowledged X-Sanction afterwards is quite telling. Makes me wonder if there was some major editorial interference behind the scenes.

[Jackraow21]

Thanks for your kind words. And that was something else I found so troubling about the conclusion of AvX. It feels like in the grand scheme of things, everyone ignored the story in X-Sanction. That made it clear to Cyclops and even to Hope that the Avengers were going to doom the planet. If they were allowed to take Hope in any capacity, then the world would be burned to cinder by the Phoenix. That benefit of hindsight is not trivial. And in the end, I think it made Cyclops' actions all the more justified. The fact that nobody really acknowledged X-Sanction afterwards is quite telling. Makes me wonder if there was some major editorial interference behind the scenes.

100%. If Cyclops had just referenced what his son had told him he’d seen in the future, and explained that to people, it wouldn’t have made this event so one-sided. I still think the hubris of the Avengers (and especially Tony) would’ve led them to think they know better and could destroy the Phoenix themselves with the big cannon that he made. But Cyclops and his side wouldn’t have looked like such unreasonable zealots.

Also, Cable should’ve gotten up out of his coma and played a role in the third act. Fighting his way to K’un Lun — maybe using his psimitar since he no longer has the T-O virus and is full powered (thanks to Hope) — and making his way to his daughter, then participating in her final training alongside Iron Fist and Spider-man. That would’ve been a much better version of what happened IMO.

[Jv565]

What a well thought out and entertaining video. Thanks so much.

[Huntsman Spider]

Thank you very much for your kind words. And I agree. The X-Men were framed poorly in this event. And I think a big reason for that is because this was around the time when Marvel began clashing with Fox over the movie rights. If memory serves me right, this came out right around the time Disney purchased Marvel. And shortly after, the X-Men and F4 were basically marginalized on every level. So, I think in that regard, the X-Men were never going to be allowed to win. It was only about how the Avengers would be elevated. And it honestly wasn't until House of X/Powers of X that the X-Men basically regained what they had lost from this vent.

Thanks for your kind words. And that was something else I found so troubling about the conclusion of AvX. It feels like in the grand scheme of things, everyone ignored the story in X-Sanction. That made it clear to Cyclops and even to Hope that the Avengers were going to doom the planet. If they were allowed to take Hope in any capacity, then the world would be burned to cinder by the Phoenix. That benefit of hindsight is not trivial. And in the end, I think it made Cyclops' actions all the more justified. The fact that nobody really acknowledged X-Sanction afterwards is quite telling. Makes me wonder if there was some major editorial interference behind the scenes.

You're very welcome, though I should mention that technically, Disney acquired Marvel back in 2009, so I'd blame the portrayal of the X-Men vis-a-vis the Avengers more on the Avengers movie that came out (or was about to come out) in 2012, so AvX was likely meant to serve as a bit of cross-promotion for that movie. Other than that, generally cosigned.

100%. If Cyclops had just referenced what his son had told him he’d seen in the future, and explained that to people, it wouldn’t have made this event so one-sided. I still think the hubris of the Avengers (and especially Tony) would’ve led them to think they know better and could destroy the Phoenix themselves with the big cannon that he made. But Cyclops and his side wouldn’t have looked like such unreasonable zealots.

Also, Cable should’ve gotten up out of his coma and played a role in the third act. Fighting his way to K’un Lun — maybe using his psimitar since he no longer has the T-O virus and is full powered (thanks to Hope) — and making his way to his daughter, then participating in her final training alongside Iron Fist and Spider-man. That would’ve been a much better version of what happened IMO.

That would have been cool, too, especially since Cable did mention in his thoughts in Avengers: X-Sanction that one day, Spider-Man would be viewed as the greatest hero of the present-day MU, even if he found that somewhat hard to believe based on his encounters with the web-slinger thus far. Would have been great to see Cable give Spidey some pointers, not only in helping him train Hope, but also in terms of what his legacy would be long after his (eventual) death.