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  1. #1
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    Default Is the Phoenix Force still a "primal force second only to that of the Creator"?

    I know some of you have kept up with the changes more than I have.


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    2022: The Year of Hellion Rift's Avatar
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    I think Hellion could beat up a bird, tbh.

    Somewhat related, but I'm curious how it ranks up to full-powered Franklin Richards. (Full-Powered Adult Franklin Richards, not AU Phoenix-Empowered Teen Franklin Richards.) I assume PF is more powerful overall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Hellion is the talk of the boards and rightfully so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rift View Post
    I think Hellion could beat up a bird, tbh.

    Somewhat related, but I'm curious how it ranks up to full-powered Franklin Richards. (Full-Powered Adult Franklin Richards, not AU Phoenix-Empowered Teen Franklin Richards.) I assume PF is more powerful overall.

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    2022: The Year of Hellion Rift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Hellion is the talk of the boards and rightfully so.

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    No. Now it the side girl oden knocked up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dthirds3 View Post
    No. Now it the side girl oden knocked up
    I've heard from a deep source that people who weren't happy with that will "get some relief soon"...

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I know some of you have kept up with the changes more than I have.

    Yes, I believe the PF is still a Primal Force second only to that of the Creator in terms of power.

    Everyone including Franklin and Hellion are below the Phoenix.

    "None can withstand the Phoenix!"
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    If TOBA is considered a different being from TOAA, then no (TOBA is TOAA's Hulk basically, has his own personality, opposite power and whatnot).

    There's also Living Tribunal, who before TOBA came along could be considered number two, he even refused to try to deal with Thanos in Infinity Gauntlet since he'd likely be able to solve the whole thing.

    Speaking of Thanos, there's Infinity Gauntlet, not a being, but its power is above most cosmic beings for some reason (It's pretty stupid for those rocks to be that strong, and from what I hear, originally they weren't anywhere near that level too), though it may have gotten nerfed, also worth noting Phoenix wasn't in Infinity Gauntlet at all (Though I don't know what was up with the Phoenix back then).

    Beyonders would also be worth considering since they did manage to kill Living Tribunal (Though I don't remember if they brute forced or came up with something else), and Doom with their power was casually above T'Challa with Infinity Gauntlet, he killed Cyke with Phoenix Force too, though Cyke would be unlikely to manage to use Phoenix's power well.

    Then again, Beyonders are dead, save for Beyonder (The one who did Secret Wars), but I think he's weaker since the introduction of Beyonders made him into a child unit of the Beyonders or somethin' like that, originally he was far above everything else as Secret Wars II showed, but retcons afterwards nerfed him, not sure where he's at power-wise, much less if he's on the level of other Beyonders (Who by themselves have a vague power too besides "It's pretty high"), but I'm not sure if he's even at Celestials level after the nerf.

    I'm also not sure if this is something other writers or editorial have used/talked besides Claremont, it could always be a case like how originally Beyonder was the strongest being ever when Jim Shooter had his way, but no one else agreed with that, and he was nerfed.

    So yeah, there's tough competition here, my answer is probably not even if we don't count TOBA.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  9. #9
    Incredible Member Sunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I've heard from a deep source that people who weren't happy with that will "get some relief soon"...
    Hallelujah!

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    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Yes, I believe the PF is still a Primal Force second only to that of the Creator in terms of power.

    Everyone including Franklin and Hellion are below the Phoenix.

    "None can withstand the Phoenix!"
    In a way I think Phoenix and Galactus are on same level of power(and nerfing, and misunderstanding and generally jobbing as wella s having a quite long list of "the opposite nemesis equivalent" that in the ned amount to nothing in the long scheme)
    They are both immensely powerful. Very enigmatic. They both are tied to the whole universe thing. But are different from other great abstracts, albeit closely related. Big difference in this case is that the abstracts in general manifest a constructed avatar when dealing with the physical mortal plane, Galactus and Phonix on the other hand, go for a mortal host. Galactus sticking with his first one and Phoenix just jumping from host to host as needed.
    Similar to them is the so called Enigma force, the one behind Captain Universe. Who sometimes is called "mother/father" by lesser cosmic entities...recently it has surfaced some hilight in that Enigma Force is a deity of light to counter the original deity of darkness, as the exact omens there was light so was enigma force. While powerfull seem that is kind of inferior to Galactus and Phoenix that exist in the very moment a new cosmos exist, albeit not openly manifest.
    But the reasoning behind the host can be similar.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Uncanny X-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I know some of you have kept up with the changes more than I have.

    I find this speech from the Watcher fascinating in light of what was revealed later about Jean and the Phoenix. At this stage the Phoenix was still the manifestation of Jean's ultimate powers rather than a separate entity, but here the Watcher/Claremont make it very much sound like the Phoenix is a "primal force" which became "one" with Jean... not necessarily one that originated FROM Jean as Claremont/Cockrum originally intended.

  12. #12
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncanny X-Man View Post
    I find this speech from the Watcher fascinating in light of what was revealed later about Jean and the Phoenix. At this stage the Phoenix was still the manifestation of Jean's ultimate powers rather than a separate entity, but here the Watcher/Claremont make it very much sound like the Phoenix is a "primal force" which became "one" with Jean... not necessarily one that originated FROM Jean as Claremont/Cockrum originally intended.
    This is from Claremont and Byrne and Cockrum! It is the opening page of the last part of the DP Saga!!

    The Watcher is not saying that the PF is Jean's ultimate powers....but rather a Primal Force that bonded to Jean.

    Another reason I say we get/got confusing messages from the Phoenix/Phoenix Force creators right from the start.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Uncanny X-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    This is from Claremont and Byrne and Cockrum! It is the opening page of the last part of the DP Saga!!

    The Watcher is not saying that the PF is Jean's ultimate powers....but rather a Primal Force that bonded to Jean.

    Another reason I say we get/got confusing messages from the Phoenix/Phoenix Force creators right from the start.
    Yes I know where it's from But the way Claremont and Cockrum intended it at the start was for the Phoenix to be the ultimate manifestation of Jean's powers and not a separate entity, whereas Byrne allegedly pushed for this latter angle and Claremont seems to follow suit with the Watcher's monologue here.

    I said I find it interesting because at this stage the Jamaica Bay cocoon and the Phoenix as a separate entity from Jean are all years away, yet I feel Claremont himself laid the groundwork here by having the Watcher talk about a "primal force"... "Though she did not know it then". The Phoenix Force retcon from years later is all here in the Watcher's words.

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    In the x-books yeah but also Claremont introduced the first foursaken who is the PF equal. Then said it was the spark that caused the big bang however, Avenger comics have contrary stories

  15. #15
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncanny X-Man View Post
    But the way Claremont and Cockrum intended it at the start was for the Phoenix to be the ultimate manifestation of Jean's powers and not a separate entity, whereas Byrne allegedly pushed for this latter angle and Claremont seems to follow suit with the Watcher's monologue here.

    I said I find it interesting because at this stage the Jamaica Bay cocoon and the Phoenix as a separate entity from Jean are all years away, yet I feel Claremont himself laid the groundwork here by having the Watcher talk about a "primal force"... "Though she did not know it then". The Phoenix Force retcon from years later is all here in the Watcher's words.
    Yes, I know that Claremont changed many things with Jean Phoenix, which is why I said we, the fans, got mixed messages right from the start.

    Claremont laying/not laying anything here is just more confusion and mixed messages from what he did at the beginning of the Phoenix Saga.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

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