Superman vs Goku: In Strength Challenge

[kingmyth]

They probably meant that he could, not that he did(I'm not saying he could btw as it is hard to say whether or not their striking power is on par with their lifting strength or not). Other sites hold little relevance here anyway mate.

All I'm pointing out is that Gamefaqs members make up fake feats and fake powers for the characters they like, Hell they even go out of their way to say their fanon is canon proof.

[master of read]

I was saying I remember the DBZ Gamefaqs fanboys were making that claim, thats what made it stupid, I was just pointing out what makes them look stupid for making up stuff that never happen in the DBZ canon.

as a note, we dont bring up what is said or done on other forums.

[master of read]

All I'm pointing out is that Gamefaqs members make up fake feats and fake powers for the characters they like, Hell they even go out of their way to say their fanon is canon proof.

also, we dont really give a shit what gamefaq, narutofan, comicvine, or any other forum has to say or think on this kind of topic.

[kingmyth]

as a note, we dont bring up what is said or done on other forums.

Just pointing it out master of read.

[Cody]

He's obviously much stronger than any version of Superman

Forgot to reply to this; he actually isn't. Superman Prime, though about as fast an durable as Post Crisis Superman, is far stronger than PC Superman. His punches sent distortions through time. Superman Prime is even stronger than that(no feats but he is a god and is described as being the top Superman, so take that for what you will)

[Primetime Harder]

My first thought was: This has been going on for 4 pages? Whaaat?

Sheer physical strength is the one area pretty much every version of Superman has on Goku. Goku is planetary-scale in energy projection, not strength. I guess if he got boosted to planet-busting punch strength in Battle of Gods or something, he'd be on the same scale as Nu52 Supes, but I don't know about that.

Forgot to reply to this; he actually isn't. Superman Prime, though about as fast an durable as Post Crisis Superman, is far stronger than PC Superman. His punches sent distortions through time. Superman Prime is even stronger than that(no feats but he is a god and is described as being the top Superman, so take that for what you will)

Don't forget Superman Prime One Million, He of Massive Implied Power but Little Feats.

[abmccray]

My first thought was: This has been going on for 4 pages? Whaaat?

Sheer physical strength is the one area pretty much every version of Superman has on Goku. Goku is planetary-scale in energy projection, not strength. I guess if he got boosted to planet-busting punch strength in Battle of Gods or something, he'd be on the same scale as Nu52 Supes, but I don't know about that.


Don't forget Superman Prime One Million, He of Massive Implied Power but Little Feats.

Probably a soft majority of the board has put Goku's striking strength as quite a bit above Post Crisis Superman's ever since we downgraded the latter to ramming the moon as hard as he could to bust it, and still feeling it when he did (due to contextually throwing out some of his higher feats).

On the flip side, there's just too much evidence that high tier DBZ striking strength is on a much higher plane than that:

1) High tier characters can physically hurt people with the default durability to tank planetary explosions (Freeza/Cell/probably 17/18 since they know nothing about ki control when they show up).

2) A high tier character bapped a blast straight back through Earth in one panel.

3) A high tier character can punch through Kai's planet.

4) 1/3 of the highest tier characters casually goes through planets effortlessly.

That's outside of knowing that the mythology that the series is based on pretty much says that ki can be used to amp striking power as one of the most popular applications of it.

[Surtur]

He was on the surface of the planet when it blew up. Again, the sheer force of a planet going off is enough to destroy a planet. Fact to the matter is, Frieza would have to of have planet durability in order to survive the ordeal. The Cell Juniors have his cells, and would have his durability. Gohan shatters them with a punch. He shatters beings with planetary durability; with a punch. Superman can only shatter guys with moon durability with a punch.

Planet durability > moon durability. Force to take out a guy with planet durability with a punch > force to take out a guy with moon durability with a punch.

You more or less just demonstrated the problem with the ABC logic of DBZ and it being taken too far. Frieza was hit with a shockwave with a big enough radius to take out the planet. It doesn't really equate to "a precise strike somewhere on his body won't cause him pain".

Probably a soft majority of the board has put Goku's striking strength as quite a bit above Post Crisis Superman's ever since we downgraded the latter to ramming the moon as hard as he could to bust it, and still feeling it when he did (due to contextually throwing out some of his higher feats).

There was never any downgrade though, is the thing. Superman, flying full speed smack dab into..any object..why is that the same as an explosion, when comparing to durability? Especially since the entire feat kickstarting this is Frieza surviving..not some silly ass compressed energy attack, but just a normal explosion.

We leaped from there to "Cell can ignore these hits" and people acted like some sort of curtain had been drawn back when..the moon feat with Supes has been known. Which is, again, why even suggesting he was downgraded makes no sense.

If you want to believe that, sure, fine, but it kind of came across as something similar to Thor's speed where we suddenly had a ruling and all the speed arguments were over. That wasn't the same, it was some peopel(no, not a huge majority of the board) extrapolating the DBZ feats on a scale that is..questionable.

[abmccray]

There was never any downgrade though, is the thing. Superman, flying full speed smack dab into..any object..why is that the same as an explosion, when comparing to durability? Especially since the entire feat kickstarting this is Frieza surviving..not some silly ass compressed energy attack, but just a normal explosion.

Years ago, the board had Post-Superman has a physical planet buster as far as wide consensus goes. Then, there was a trend of actually looking at the feats in context and seeing that as far as consistent high end feats go, he was a moonbuster, with effort (and a lot of that was handwaved, since we ignored that he was basically using acceleration to do so, each time). Thus the "downgrade" in perception.

[Cody]

My first thought was: This has been going on for 4 pages? Whaaat?

Sheer physical strength is the one area pretty much every version of Superman has on Goku. Goku is planetary-scale in energy projection, not strength. I guess if he got boosted to planet-busting punch strength in Battle of Gods or something, he'd be on the same scale as Nu52 Supes, but I don't know about that.

Nu Superman is absolutely stronger, even in striking power. We are speaking about Post Crisis Supes however.

Don't forget Superman Prime One Million, He of Massive Implied Power but Little Feats.

That's the god I was talking about when I said Superman Prime, yea. Golden boy.

You more or less just demonstrated the problem with the ABC logic of DBZ and it being taken too far.

I am not. This isn't using power scaling to judge how durable the Cell Juniors are. This is using the very basis of their being to judge how durable they are. One of the major abilities of Cell that made him so formidable was the fact that he had the Cells of everyone on Earth prior to his birth. He has the Cells of Piccolo, thus he has his regeneration. He has the Cells of a Saiyan, thus he get a Zenkai boost when he recovers from severe wounds, he has the abilities of Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, Goku, Frieza, etc, all due to having their cells and data. He would have Frieza's durability because, once again, he has his cells. That is the very foundation of his character. His juniors have this ability as well.

Frieza was hit with a shockwave with a big enough radius to take out the planet. It doesn't really equate to "a precise strike somewhere on his body won't cause him pain".

He shrugged off said explosion with no wounds from it whatsoever. The only wounds seen on him were the ones he received from Goku and himself. This means that; despite being wounded and drained, his durability was enough to shrug off a planet busting attack that wasn't based off of energy. That puts him on planet durability level. How you could claim otherwise makes little to no sense.

Does that mean Post Crisis Superman can't hurt him? Fuck no. Post Crisis Superman can take on Frieza on his own. Quite frankly I put Post Crisis Superman on the same level that MSSJ Goku was when he fought Cell. Just that he hits harder. If anything I'd say he could hit as hard as Perfect Cell, maybe a bit harder. The only beings that I am saying he would have a hard time hurting are SSJ2+ level beings.

If you want to believe that, sure, fine, but it kind of came across as something similar to Thor's speed where we suddenly had a ruling and all the speed arguments were over. That wasn't the same, it was some peopel(no, not a huge majority of the board) extrapolating the DBZ feats on a scale that is..questionable.

This isn't an estimation of shown feats. This is taking shown feats as what they are and using them. This isn't going by any form of power scaling. This is going by the abilities of a character and how they work. Frieza, despite being beaten and drained, shrugged off a planet blowing up while being on it's surface. Cell; -and in extension- Cell juniors; have the abilities and techniques of all the people that the Z fighters have encountered. They have Piccolo's techniques and healing factor, they have Vegeta, Gohan and Goku's techniques and Saiyan abilities. They have Frieza's techniques so they would also have his durability as well. And Gohan shatters them with a strike.

[Slade1]

Nu Superman is absolutely stronger, even in striking power. We are speaking about Post Crisis Supes however.

Just to be technical the OP said all versions are ok...

[Cody]

Just to be technical the OP said all versions are ok...

But Surtur and I aren't talking about all versions. Just one specifically atm.

[Surtur]

Years ago, the board had Post-Superman has a physical planet buster as far as wide consensus goes. Then, there was a trend of actually looking at the feats in context and seeing that as far as consistent high end feats go, he was a moonbuster, with effort (and a lot of that was handwaved, since we ignored that he was basically using acceleration to do so, each time). Thus the "downgrade" in perception.

But..he's never been seen as a physical planet buster. Unless by "years ago" you mean prior to 2007. He doesn't need to be a physical planet buster to hurt Goku, mostly because Goku can't physically destroy a planet, and hurts people around his durability just fine.

You act as if there was some recent downgrade, but in 95% of the time I've been here I've never seen post crisis Superman treated as a planet buster physically. I don't even know what feat you would refer to that would make people think this. The shadow moon feat has never been used as proof of planet busting. That was his ramming into some massive object at FTL speeds. He moved a planet with the help of Green Lantern, he held back the moon, he had another feat with him and two others moving the Earth(which is apparently dubious, but I forget the details). Most people who tried to say he could physically destroy a planet would be shut down right away, it was never a perception I saw a majority of people having.

The only change I'm seeing is the sudden implication you need to be able to explode a planet with your fist to hurt these characters. Which was never really the case before, even when the shadow moon thing was treated as..well, the way it is treated now. The way I saw it, first some thought they had higher resistance to energy. Then it was thought that they are hurting each other physically because we are seeing a good deal of strength focused into one area of the body(the stomach, the face, whatever). We are now a far leap from that to..Cell ignoring shots like this.

[Cody]

Cell ignoring shots like this.

I specifically said that Post-Crisis superman, at best, could probably hit with the same amount of force as Perfect Cell(not Super Perfect) could, if not more. He could absolutely hurt Cell. However, Cells strongest punch, was unable to faze a SSJ2 Gohan. Then there are stronger ssj2 beings, ssj3, Ultimate Gohan, etc. Yet somehow, you claim that a guy who is, in terms of striking power, outclassed by a lowish grade ssj2 can hurt them? What do you think he could hurt Nu Superman as well? I for one don't think so.

[Hazard]

I specifically said that Pre-Crisis superman, at best,

I'm positive you meant Post Crisis there.

Pre-Crisis. Post Crisis. Nu.