Superman vs Goku: In Strength Challenge

[Cody]

I'm positive you meant Post Crisis there.

Pre-Crisis. Post Crisis. Nu.

Oh shit! Fixed. Thanks mate XD. Don't think I've ever seen someone claim that PC Superman and Cell could hit with the same amount of force before :P.

[Primetime Harder]

I'm interested to know where the "Post-Crisis Supes isn't any stronger than Perfect Cell" thing comes from.

[Cody]

I'm interested to know where the "Post-Crisis Supes isn't any stronger than Perfect Cell" thing comes from.

His max punch shatters the moon. A ssj2's max punch shatters beings with planetary durability. Meaning his striking force is somewhere in between a MSSJ1 and a fresh SSJ2. Which is right where Perfect Cell sits at.

[Surtur]

His max punch shatters the moon. A ssj2's max punch shatters beings with planetary durability. Meaning his striking force is somewhere in between a MSSJ1 and a fresh SSJ2. Which is right where Perfect Cell sits at.

But again: you don't need to be able to explode a planet with a punch to hurt them, because *they can't explode planets with punches* and hurt each other fine. You don't get to use the Frieza durability feat to ignore the overall level of physical strength presented. They are consistently not on the level of "shattering a planet with a punch" as you seem to feel.

It's a strange argument to essentially use one feat and build from that using abc logic to claim a level of strength that, outside that one feat..just doesn't match up. There is not a single character in dragonball Z who ever one shotted a planet physically. It just doesn't happen until you get to Bills flying through them physically in a movie. Punching someone through a planet doesn't do it. Punching an energy blast through a planet doesn't do it. Notice how 99% of those feats just don't put them past Superman? Notice how the only thing you say does is "frieza survived an explosion and then more durable people are hurt with punches". Did Goku appear twice in the entire series, do nothing but punch a mofo, then leave?

If I asked you what other feats support this, could you ever give me an answer that doesn't involve "he punched Cell and hurt him" or something? Could you give me anything other then punching objects through planets? Or other strength feats that don't fall so utterly short of the level you claim them to consistently be on? These guys very much consistently *don't* show planet shattering strength and yet you keep claiming that is what you need to hurt them, you don't see an issue with that?

If the implication is "But hurting Frieza shows planet shattering strength" that would be fine and dandy if they just flat out weren't consistently shown at way below that level, physically. You might then say "Well, they go on to hurt people more durable then Frieza" but again the problem is..none of those guys had a planet explode in their face. It all builds off the assumption you need to be able to explode a planet with your fist in order to punch Frieza and hurt him. When you look at the rest of the series that took place after Frieza..we still have nothing on the level of what you claim other then "Character A punches character B and it hurts" and again we run into the same issue of: that all goes back to a single feat that doesn't jive with the strength levels presented for..99% of the series.

People before recognized that even though these guys can physically hurt each other..they can't shatter moons or planets in a punch. But..other characters have to be able to do that to hurt them?

[Matt the Manly]

Just to put this out there( and probably get shot down for it), wouldn't destroying as in stopping dead with an equal force, something that was about to destroy the planet, make post crisis superman a planet buster?

Also surely in terms of lifting strength alone, post crisis superman can lift more than Goku? Being parts of teams that move the planet and all?

[Matt the Manly]

Ok here's the feat in question. Note that they say it will destroy the planet on impact. Actually they don't actually say the word planet but that was the point of the whole story. Shadow Thief was going to "sacrifice" the earth to Starbreaker. Im pretty sure I remember him noting that it would have destroyed the planet . The story arc runs from JLA vol 2 no 27 to 30.



I mean surely you need an equal and opposite force to stop planet busting force?

[big_adventure]

Just to put this out there( and probably get shot down for it), wouldn't destroying as in stopping dead with an equal force, something that was about to destroy the planet, make post crisis superman a planet buster?

Also surely in terms of lifting strength alone, post crisis superman can lift more than Goku? Being parts of teams that move the planet and all?

Point 1: No, not really, since that's not really his level, as presented over the course of his post-crisis career. I mean, feel free to try opening that debate up if you like - but, for as long as I've been here, Superman has been considered a guy who's absolute top-end is somewhere between mountain- and moon-busting (closer to the later), with his best somewhat-consistent level being the guy who smashed up a moon by crashing into it as fast as he could, and KO'd himself in the process.

Point 2: I absolutely, positively agree with that (as stated way back on page one or so). DBZ Goku never really lifts anything heavy. He hits hard as hell - but that's striking force, which is different than lifting in most comic-type media. And since it's expressly shown to be a thing generated through body control and ki in DB, well, I'd want to see some pure lifting before I compare it to someone on the "billions or more tons" level. Like I said before, the only real lifting feat I remember for DBZ Goku was anime filler, and all it was was casually flying away with a couple of dinosaurs.

[Matt the Manly]

Point 1: No, not really, since that's not really his level, as presented over the course of his post-crisis career. I mean, feel free to try opening that debate up if you like - but, for as long as I've been here, Superman has been considered a guy who's absolute top-end is somewhere between mountain- and moon-busting (closer to the later), with his best somewhat-consistent level being the guy who smashed up a moon by crashing into it as fast as he could, and KO'd himself in the process.

Point 2: I absolutely, positively agree with that (as stated way back on page one or so). DBZ Goku never really lifts anything heavy. He hits hard as hell - but that's striking force, which is different than lifting in most comic-type media. And since it's expressly shown to be a thing generated through body control and ki in DB, well, I'd want to see some pure lifting before I compare it to someone on the "billions or more tons" level. Like I said before, the only real lifting feat I remember for DBZ Goku was anime filler, and all it was was casually flying away with a couple of dinosaurs.

But the moon in question was not a normal stationary moon. It was something that would have busted the planet on impact, moving at superspeed. How do you stop a planet busting moon without planet busting force?

[big_adventure]

Ok here's the feat in question. Note that they say it will destroy the planet on impact. Actually they don't actually say the word planet but that was the point of the whole story. Shadow Thief was going to "sacrifice" the earth to Starbreaker. Im pretty sure I remember him noting that it would have destroyed the planet . The story arc runs from JLA vol 2 no 27 to 30.


I mean surely you need an equal and opposite force to stop planet busting force?

Not at all, since this is "planet-busting" (and we give "planet-busting" to things that have actually busted a planet, which this doesn't do, so it's not really a planet-buster) specifically because the moment of impact is extremely brief. Assume an impact moment of 1 second. Decelerating 81 billion tons from 7614000 km/h to 0 in one second requires MUCH more force than decelerating it over a minute, or three minutes, or whatever. This is assuming indestructable masses, something that isn't the case here, of course. So... no.

And he struggles with it (and has help), so it's not like he just stones it solo in any case.

[Cody]

But again: you don't need to be able to explode a planet with a punch to hurt them, because *they can't explode planets with punches* and hurt each other fine. You don't get to use the Frieza durability feat to ignore the overall level of physical strength presented. They are consistently not on the level of "shattering a planet with a punch" as you seem to feel.

Except they would be by the time they reach ssj2 levels. It's incredibly silly to assume everyone is now weaker than ssj2 Gohan.

It's a strange argument to essentially use one feat and build from that using abc logic to claim a level of strength that, outside that one feat..just doesn't match up. There is not a single character in dragonball Z who ever one shotted a planet physically.

Goku has, and on a planet far denser than Earths. Considering the fact that the ssj3 form multiples the users overall abilities by 4 that further shows a ssj2 level being has planetary striking power. Others have already went through this with you Surtur. They can strike with planet destroying power, yet they do it as a piercing type of attack. They can control their aoe's so that, instead of shattering a planet when they strike; they go right through it. Nu Superman has never destroyed a planet with a single punch, yet we know he can due to the fact he benched pressed it's weight for days nonstop without any problems.

It just doesn't happen until you get to Bills flying through them physically in a movie.

So you're going to ignore the fact that a ssj3 did it earlier in said movie.

Punching someone through a planet doesn't do it. Punching an energy blast through a planet doesn't do it. Notice how 99% of those feats just don't put them past Superman? Notice how the only thing you say does is "frieza survived an explosion and then more durable people are hurt with punches". Did Goku appear twice in the entire series, do nothing but punch a mofo, then leave?

Wow, so you're just going to ignore bits and pieces of my argument now are you? How about actually addressing them for once Surtur? I stated time and time again that this wasn't a power scaling method I am using. Read the post entirely before actually replying to it ffs. I said; multiple fucking times already, that this "isn't using power scaling to judge how durable the Cell Juniors are. This is using the very basis of their being, their character, to judge how durable they are. One of the major abilities of Cell that made him so formidable was the fact that he had the Cells of everyone on Earth prior to his birth. He has the Cells of Piccolo, thus he has his regeneration. He has the Cells of a Saiyan, thus he get a Zenkai boost when he recovers from severe wounds, he has the abilities of Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, Goku, Frieza, etc, all due to having their cells and data. He would have Frieza's durability because, once again, he has his cells. That is the very foundation of his character. His juniors have this ability as well."

"This isn't an estimation of shown feats. This is taking shown feats as what they are and using them. This isn't going by any form of power scaling. This is going by the abilities of a character and how they work. Frieza, despite being beaten and drained, shrugged off a planet blowing up while being on it's surface. Cell; -and in extension- Cell juniors; have the abilities and techniques of all the people that the Z fighters have encountered. They have Piccolo's techniques and healing factor, they have Vegeta, Gohan and Goku's techniques and Saiyan(Zenkai)abilities. They have Frieza's techniques so they would also have his durability as well. And Gohan shatters them with a strike."

None of that is using fucking power scaling. That is using a characters abilities and using them as an example. And no, it isn't the only time something like this has happened. As I said before, ssj3 Goku punched right through KK's planet. Which if far denser than Earth's. Combine that with the fact that ssj3 multiples the users overall abilities by a factor of 4? And it supports Gohan shattering beings with planetary durability.

If I asked you what other feats support this, could you ever give me an answer that doesn't involve "he punched Cell and hurt him" or something?

That was never my example. Now you're being dishonest and putting words in my mouth, which a very poor move on your part. He shattered Cell Juniors who would have Frieza's durability due to having his cells inside of them. Goku punched through the ultra dense planet of King Kai's. Both are good examples. Ignoring them and claiming power scaling when no one has ever used any power scaling argument in this topic isn't going to help your argument.

Could you give me anything other then punching objects through planets?

Already did. I even brought it up earlier in this thread but you conveniently ignored it. Goku punched through King Kai's planet. A planet far denser than Earth due to it's level of gravity.

Or other strength feats that don't fall so utterly short of the level you claim them to consistently be on? These guys very much consistently *don't* show planet shattering strength and yet you keep claiming that is what you need to hurt them, you don't see an issue with that?

Oh look; more dishonest debating. I never once said you needed planet shattering force to hurt ssj2+ level of beings. Moon shattering punches so far from planet shattering punches that it isn't even funny. Post Crisis Superman can't shatter a planet with his punch's. I specifically stated that moon shattering punches alone isn't going to hurt them.

If the implication is "But hurting Frieza shows planet shattering strength"

Once again this was never claimed. If you aren't even going to read the other persons post before replying to them then why do you bother even trying to debate? You obviously aren't trying to have an honest debate here Surtur so what's the point? Hurting Frieza doesn't show planet shattering strength and you damn well know that is not what I said. Punching someone with his durability due to them having his cells and shattering them from said punch shows planet "shattering" striking force. I even stated that Post Crisis Superman could defeat Frieza quite easily. But again, you ignore it in order to put words in my mouth.

that would be fine and dandy if they just flat out weren't consistently shown at way below that level, physically.

They don't but okay? When has a ssj2-3 shown to strike with any lesser level of force than a ssj2 kid Gohan?

You might then say "Well, they go on to hurt people more durable then Frieza"

No I wouldn't as I never once said this. No one in this entire fucking thread said this. You're not even trying to have a honest debate here. You are putting words in my mouth so you could try and have some sort of argument. This is an incredibly sad performance from you Surtur. I specifically stated that ssj2 Gohan shatters beings with Frieza's durability. I pointed out that they would have his durability due to the fact they have his Cells. Just like they have Piccolo's cells and so they can regenerate, and have Saiyan cells so they get a Zenkai boost. This has nothing to do with power scaling and the sooner you realize that the sooner we can have an actual debate instead of you putting words in my mouth and ignoring what I actually say.

My god Surtur. I expected better from you. You blatantly ignore what I am trying to say, put words in my mouth, claim power scaling is being used when it isn't, claim I am saying that you need planet shattering strength to hurt Frieza when not once did i ever, ever said this at all. Actually read what a person says before replying to them. Actually try to reply to the real points they are making instead of putting words in their mouth.

[Matt the Manly]

Not at all, since this is "planet-busting" (and we give "planet-busting" to things that have actually busted a planet, which this doesn't do, so it's not really a planet-buster) specifically because the moment of impact is extremely brief. Assume an impact moment of 1 second. Decelerating 81 billion tons from 7614000 km/h to 0 in one second requires MUCH more force than decelerating it over a minute, or three minutes, or whatever. This is assuming indestructable masses, something that isn't the case here, of course. So... no.

And he struggles with it (and has help), so it's not like he just stones it solo in any case.

He was KOd by the impact but I don't remember him getting help


I thought we gave planet busting stats to certain people who have not actually busted planets, by inference. Black Bolt, PC Superman characters like Mongul for example, the Runner presumably since he can hurt Thanos and Surfer etc

I didn't get the second part. Are saying taking less time is more impressive or vice versa? He took very little time . He didn't stop it in 3 min. He stopped it on impact

[Cody]

I thought we gave planet busting stats to certain people who have not actually busted planets, by inference. Black Bolt, PC Superman characters like Mongul for example, the Runner presumably since he can hurt Thanos and Surfer etc

You'd need at least near star busting power in order to hurt Thanos, even without his shields up. So I'm calling SMvFL on that.

[Hazard]

Honestly, the Runner shows up just little enough for anything he does to be valid.

Just to put this out there( and probably get shot down for it), wouldn't destroying as in stopping dead with an equal force, something that was about to destroy the planet, make post crisis superman a planet buster?

Also surely in terms of lifting strength alone, post crisis superman can lift more than Goku? Being parts of teams that move the planet and all?

Not really. Superman just needs to have enough strength to blow up the moon to... blow up the moon.

Also, yeah. Absolutely. DB strength is oriented towards striking. Not lifting and what not. Post Crisis Superman can totally lift more than Goku.

[big_adventure]

He was KOd by the impact but I don't remember him getting help


I thought we gave planet busting stats to certain people who have not actually busted planets, by inference. Black Bolt, PC Superman characters like Mongul for example, the Runner presumably since he can hurt Thanos and Surfer etc

I didn't get the second part. Are saying taking less time is more impressive or vice versa? He took very little time . He didn't stop it in 3 min. He stopped it on impact

Sorry about that - I'd confused to when he helped move the moon and helped move Earth (though that wasn't remotely just him).

It's less impressive than "planet-buster" because he doesn't stop 81 billion tons moving at that speed. He destroys the much-less-durable-than-he-is moon. His body absolutely did not have to do planet-busting force to bust a moon. If he'd caught that, in a second or less, like the Earth would be doing, it would be that amount of force, but in this case, all he needs to do is smash the moon to erase the threat. Lots of particles can keep their momentum, it's just that they aren't hurting anything.

[big_adventure]

You'd need at least near star busting power in order to hurt Thanos, even without his shields up. So I'm calling SMvFL on that.

Eh, not really - the top-tier Elders are no joke (as opposed to the Champion, who is only a joke). And it's consistent for the Runner. He abused the Surfer without trying. He abused Thanos without trying. He abused the Collector (another Elder, and a guy who Thanos made a deal with rather than just trying to take what he wanted, something he'd only bother to do if he thought he needed to) without trying. The guy has no appearances where he doesn't do stuff at that level, really. And, as mentioned, he has few enough appearances that those are his "high-end consistent with presentation" feats.