Superman vs Goku: In Strength Challenge

[Cody]

Eh, not really - the top-tier Elders are no joke (as opposed to the Champion, who is only a joke). And it's consistent for the Runner. He abused the Surfer without trying. He abused Thanos without trying. He abused the Collector (another Elder, and a guy who Thanos made a deal with rather than just trying to take what he wanted, something he'd only bother to do if he thought he needed to) without trying. The guy has no appearances where he doesn't do stuff at that level, really. And, as mentioned, he has few enough appearances that those are his "high-end consistent with presentation" feats.

So does that mean the Runner can beat Thanos? Or can Thanos mind fuck him? Also; is he faster than Wally? What about PC Flash?

[Slade1]

So does that mean the Runner can be Thanos? Or can Thanos mind fuck him? Also; is he faster than Wally? What about PC Flash?

Runner is faster than Wally. He's in the Professor Zoom speed range. PC Flash is iffy.

[Cody]

Runner is faster than Wally. He's in the Professor Zoom speed range. PC Flash is iffy.

Was looking up scans on Google and he did seem to outmatch Surfer in both strength and speed so yea, he seems to be faster than Wally by a fair bit. Since he can harm Thanos, and is faster than Wally, I guess he could probably take out Thanos before Thanos mind screws him. Maybe.

[byc]

As I recall in Thanos' Quest, Runner wrecked Thanos' space chair, not Thanos. Thanos couldn't hit him, and it seemed it was actually trying. Then Runner stopped to chat with Thanos, and then Thanos used the Time Gem to age Runner and then de-age him to an infant, took the Space Gem, and later on dropped off Runner to Collector, and then re-aged Runner, Runner then beat up Collector, while Thanos took the Reality Gem, and then left to confront Grandmaster...

On a different topic altogether...I used to have Thanos Quest. I think I threw them out...

[Dalak]

As every Cell has Frieza's DNA and all that implies, why does it take til Super Perfect for him not to feel Superman's punches anymore?

Oh, do we assume Frieza lost his eye to the unfocused planetary explosion he survived or that every attack that SSJ1 Goku used was planet buster + level in that fight?

[Cody]

As every Cell has Frieza's DNA and all that implies, why does it take til Super Perfect for him not to feel Superman's punches anymore?

That was when he was at his strongest. He was around the same level as ssj2 kid Gohan right at that state when prior to that he was incapable of giving the kid a decent fight. If Post Crisis Supes is at least slightly physically stronger than perfect cell, he most likely won't be making much more of an effect that Perfect Cell did against a ssj2 level being.

Oh, do we assume Frieza lost his eye to the unfocused planetary explosion he survived or that every attack that SSJ1 Goku used was planet buster + level in that fight?

That was from Goku's final attack as you can see here:





The above scan shows the blast disintegrating Freeza's face...and after the planet explodes he is not further damaged:

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/214/2...?v=11192794206

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/214/2...?v=11192794206

AFTER Namek's explosion:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...n_Space%29.jpg

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0...k_exploded.jpg

Thus, Frieza has the durability, without virtually any ki and cut in half, to tank the explosion of Planet Namek, which is minimally the size of Earth. Which is confirmed by Frieza also having the power to kick away planet busting attacks with ease, without using any ki (notice the lack of energy surrounding Frieza):

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/541...netbusting.jpg

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/5...etbusting2.jpg

Now granted; we see no planet being destroyed in those scans. However, if we take into consideration Piccolo's aptitude at ki sense, it does add credibility to it when he worries that Vegeta's attack was about to bust Namek.

[Dalak]

That was when he was at his strongest. He was around the same level as ssj2 kid Gohan right at that state when prior to that he was incapable of giving the kid a decent fight. If Post Crisis Supes is at least slightly physically stronger than perfect cell, he most likely won't be making much more of an effect that Perfect Cell did against a ssj2 level being.

You aren't answering my question, so I'll rephrase it and ask again: Base Level Cell has Frieza's DNA just as much as Cell Jr's, so why is Base Level Cell not as durable as Frieza (someone weaker than him already) while Super Perfect Cell is?

That was from Goku's final attack as you can see here:

The above scan shows the blast disintegrating Freeza's face...and after the planet explodes he is not further damaged:

Now granted; we see no planet being destroyed in those scans. However, if we take into consideration Piccolo's aptitude at ki sense, it does add credibility to it when he worries that Vegeta's attack was about to bust Namek.

I see no disintegration unless you mean all of him, I see a goofy face that has the eye blowing up the largest unharmed in the anime scans you posted. Between then, and Space he lost a good chunk of his face. This video even shows Trees and buildings surviving on chunks of Namek, so the damage it would have done to Frieza is probably negligible on 'Planet Busting' levels. Also shown in the Healing Pod he's got an unexplained huge hole in his back, and as it goes on several more wounds that are inconsistent with the explosion that hit him as shown. Those cuts, holes, and gouges would be entirely consistent with shards of an exploding planet though.

However, if it is as you state and Freiza has Planet-Buster+ Durability when completely wiped out and nearly powerless, logically every attack of Goku's that harmed him at all had to be Planet Buster + in power (Counting pre-SSJ Goku biting Frieza's tail, and every punch/kick/blast). So again, I'll rephrase the question to make it a simple yes or no answer: Is every attack Goku uses in the final fight(s) with Frieza where he is injured capable of busting a planet?

If No: Is Planetary Buster+ Durability (with that same feat leaving namek homes/tree trunks intact) consistent with his other showings? Yes/No please.

[Cody]

You aren't answering my question, so I'll rephrase it and ask again: Base Level Cell has Frieza's DNA just as much as Cell Jr's, so why is Base Level Cell not as durable as Frieza (someone weaker than him already) while Super Perfect Cell is?

By rights they would. The only people capable of hurting him were guys stronger than Frieza as it is. It doesn't take planet busting striking force to harm them Frieza or Cell. I am not even saying it takes planet busting power to harm a ssj2. There is a huge gap between moon and planet busting. A punch with the force to take out something that size and durability of several moons put together can still hurt them. But I doubt a strike that is JUST at moon busting is really going to be a problem for those who are ssj2+.

I see no disintegration unless you mean all of him, I see a goofy face that has the eye blowing up the largest unharmed in the anime scans you posted.

If you look at the first and second manga scans, you see arm, his left arm, that he had raised, was hit by the blast. In the part where you see him floating in space, you see his left arm gone. Meaning it was taken out by Goku's attack. Another thing you see in those scans is that the right side of his face is more wounded than the rest of his face, as evident by the blood above and below the eye. Considering the fact that he took Goku's blast right to the face, and that very same spot on his face was gone after Namek blew up, it is obvious it was Goku's attack that took that piece of his face off.

Between then, and Space he lost a good chunk of his face. This video even shows Trees and buildings surviving on chunks of Namek, so the damage it would have done to Frieza is probably negligible on 'Planet Busting' levels. Also shown in the Healing Pod he's got an unexplained huge hole in his back, and as it goes on several more wounds that are inconsistent with the explosion that hit him as shown. Those cuts, holes, and gouges would be entirely consistent with shards of an exploding planet though.

The planet blew up. That is literally impossible for the explosion to be "negligible". The core of the planet was destroyed. The force would have enough force of a planet busting attack in itself. Having chunks of the planet floating around as it's remains doesn't change that fact. The only holes seen are from the wounds he received from Goku. There isn't a huge hole so I have no idea what you're talking about there. The cut below is waist is due to, you know, having hald of his body sliced in half.

However, if it is as you state and Freiza has Planet-Buster+ Durability when completely wiped out and nearly powerless, logically every attack of Goku's that harmed him at all had to be Planet Buster + in power (Counting pre-SSJ Goku biting Frieza's tail, and every punch/kick/blast). So again, I'll rephrase the question to make it a simple yes or no answer: Is every attack Goku uses in the final fight(s) with Frieza where he is injured capable of busting a planet?

No, not all of them. Again; moon-multi-moon busting attacks would also effect Frieza just fine. Especially several of them. Stuff like the Spirit Bomb were absolutely planet busting however.

If No: Is Planetary Buster+ Durability (with that same feat leaving namek homes/tree trunks intact) consistent with his other showings? Yes/No please.

Yes. I posted a previous scan already of him booting up Vegeta's planet busting attack. Piccolo is very adept at ki sensing, consistently so. Thus his word on it being a planet busting attack is very reliable. Combined this with the fact he was being hit by the most powerful attacks from beings far more powerful than his first form was(which busted planet Vegeta) and it further supports it. Not only that but The Spirit bomb itself was far more powerful than anything thrown at Frieza before. It was powerful enough to actually leave him quite wounded. Considering he booted up Vegeta's planet buster, and it would be far more powerful than the planet buster Frieza used on planet Vegeta(it critically wounded him while he was in his final form while he busted vegeta in his first form), it shows him surviving a planet busting attack(I also seem to recall Goku hoping he could control the Spirit Bombs impact so that it would not destroy Namek, I could be wrong though).

[Dalak]

By rights they would. The only people capable of hurting him were guys stronger than Frieza as it is. It doesn't take planet busting striking force to harm them Frieza or Cell. I am not even saying it takes planet busting power to harm a ssj2. There is a huge gap between moon and planet busting. A punch with the force to take out something that size and durability of several moons put together can still hurt them. But I doubt a strike that is JUST at moon busting is really going to be a problem for those who are ssj2+.

No not all of them. Again; multi-moon busting attacks would also effect Frieza just fine. Especially several of them. Stuff like the Spirit Bomb were absolutely planet busting however.

If a planet busting attack on the weakest possible FF Frieza is as you say 'shrugged off' and didn't harm him, then why would a conscious and fighting FF Frieza with energy to amp his durability be harmed by anything less? That counts for anyone with his stated durability via genetics. Beginning of Z Piccolo was a casual moonbuster after all, and consider Frieza compared to him.

If you look at the first and second manga scans, you see arm, his left arm, that he had raised, was hit by the blast. In the part where you see him floating in space, you see his left arm gone. Meaning it was taken out by Goku's attack. Another thing you see in those scans is that the right side of his face is more wounded than the rest of his face, as evident by the blood above and below the eye. Considering the fact that he took Goku's blast right to the face, and that very same spot on his face was gone after Namek blew up, it is obvious it was Goku's attack that took that piece of his face off.

The same image showed his other arm (cut off by the same attack that got his legs) back again. I'd assume that's them confusing which arm got taken off by the disc. If you rewatch the video I posted not only would you see that face-wound goes all the way around to the back of his head (starting 2:27) inconsistent to the shown explosion considering it's large enough to completely envelop him and not focus on the face, but you can see the hole in his back as the camera pans in on the back of the Healing Pod before the Cyborg procedure begins (2:06). I wasn't pausing the screen every few seconds to find anything, if you pay attention I'm sure you will see it now that I've pointed them out.

The planet blew up. That is literally impossible for the explosion to be "negligible". The core of the planet was destroyed. The force would have enough force of a planet busting attack in itself. Having chunks of the planet floating around as it's remains doesn't change that fact. The only holes seen are from the wounds he received from Goku. There isn't a huge hole so I have no idea what you're talking about there. The cut below is waist is due to, you know, having hald of his body sliced in half.

It's not the chunks themselves that are the issue, it's the intact trees growing out of them (dead now obviously) and the dome structures the Nameks used as homes not blown to smithereens as they would be by the force of a planetary explosion if it were directed at them (0:15-0:20). You really need to rewatch that video, you already posted pictures from that scene in the Anime so you should have noticed these things.

Yes. I posted a previous scan already of him booting up Vegeta's planet busting attack. Piccolo is very adept at ki sensing, consistently so. Thus his word on it being a planet busting attack is very reliable. Combined this with the fact he was being hit by the most powerful attacks from beings far more powerful than his first form was(which busted planet Vegeta) and it further supports it. Not only that but The Spirit bomb itself was far more powerful than anything thrown at Frieza before. It was powerful enough to actually leave him quite wounded. Considering he booted up Vegeta's planet buster, and it would be far more powerful than the planet buster Frieza used on planet Vegeta(it critically wounded him while he was in his final form while he busted vegeta in his first form), it shows him surviving a planet busting attack(I also seem to recall Goku hoping he could control the Spirit Bombs impact so that it would not destroy Namek, I could be wrong though).

I'm not talking about energy attacks or the Spirit Bomb explicitly, I'm talking about all the physical attacks that have hurt Final Form Frieza including punches, kicks, slams, and the bite. Since the thread is focusing on the Physical (As you've said Namek exploding is) and either lifting or striking strength, lets stick with that for now.

[Cody]

If a planet busting attack on the weakest possible FF Frieza is as you say 'shrugged off' and didn't harm him, then why would a conscious and fighting FF Frieza with energy to amp his durability be harmed by anything less? That counts for anyone with his stated durability via genetics. Beginning of Z Piccolo was a casual moonbuster after all, and consider Frieza compared to him.

The same image showed his other arm (cut off by the same attack that got his legs) back again. I'd assume that's them confusing which arm got taken off by the disc. If you rewatch the video I posted not only would you see that face-wound goes all the way around to the back of his head (starting 2:27) inconsistent to the shown explosion considering it's large enough to completely envelop him and not focus on the face, but you can see the hole in his back as the camera pans in on the back of the Healing Pod before the Cyborg procedure begins (2:06). I wasn't pausing the screen every few seconds to find anything, if you pay attention I'm sure you will see it now that I've pointed them out.

I suppose you make a fair point. It is obvious that many of the wounds that he ended up needing cybernetics for were gained from Goku's final attack. however; perhaps the planet exploding did indeed do some form of damage to him. I mean; he still has planetary durability; surviving that at all despite being already wounded is still at least around planet durability.

It's not the chunks themselves that are the issue, it's the intact trees growing out of them (dead now obviously) and the dome structures the Nameks used as homes not blown to smithereens as they would be by the force of a planetary explosion if it were directed at them (0:15-0:20). You really need to rewatch that video, you already posted pictures from that scene in the Anime so you should have noticed these things.

It's due to the fact that by rights; they should not be still there. They should have been completely obliterated. The entire planet was blown apart. None of that should have survived. Especially with such a giant explosion seen in the manga scan I provided. I looked; and it doesn't seem any of what is seen in the anime scene was in the manga like I thought. So it would seem I used filler by mistake and for that I apologize.

I'm not talking about energy attacks or the Spirit Bomb explicitly, I'm talking about all the physical attacks that have hurt Final Form Frieza including punches, kicks, slams, and the bite. Since the thread is focusing on the Physical (As you've said Namek exploding is) and either lifting or striking strength, lets stick with that for now.

Actually it is basically the same thing. They amp their physical blows with their ki. It is how they can almost have as much as devastating effect on their opponent with their physical blows as they do with their ki attacks due to amping their blows with Ki. Besides that; Frieza did not use ki to kick up an alleged planet buster into the sky, he just physically kicked it(no aura around him or his leg either). Meaning he physically kicked an alleged planet busting attack into the sky. Again, they use their ki to increase their striking power, and can even control how much destruction the impact behind their blow leave behind. They can either channel their ki into increasing their physical stats, or use that ki as beam attacks. It's the same thing with them.

[Dalak]

I suppose you make a fair point. It is obvious that many of the wounds that he ended up needing cybernetics for were gained from Goku's final attack. however; perhaps the planet exploding did indeed do some form of damage to him. I mean; he still has planetary durability; surviving that at all despite being already wounded is still at least around planet durability.

It is by any means a respectable durability feat, but unless the force of Namek exploding was focused upon him I don't see how it equals a planet-buster. It is somewhere between busting a Moon and a Planet, and closer to Planet to me, just not Planet-Buster. Apparently though, there's an issue with this whole thing. Still, I'm glad you admit that the planet blowing up most certainly caused some of the damage fixed by the Cyborg surgeries.

It's due to the fact that by rights; they should not be still there. They should have been completely obliterated. The entire planet was blown apart. None of that should have survived. Especially with such a giant explosion seen in the manga scan I provided. I looked; and it doesn't seem any of what is seen in the anime scene was in the manga like I thought. So it would seem I used filler by mistake and for that I apologize.

How much of Mecha Frieza is filler? Is there any explanation when he shows up, or does he just show up in the Manga to be killed?

Actually it is basically the same thing. They amp their physical blows with their ki. It is how they can almost have as much as devastating effect on their opponent with their physical blows as they do with their ki attacks due to amping their blows with Ki. Besides that; Frieza did not use ki to kick up an alleged planet buster into the sky, he just physically kicked it(no aura around him or his leg either). Meaning he physically kicked an alleged planet busting attack into the sky. Again, they use their ki to increase their striking power, and can even control how much destruction the impact behind their blow leave behind. They can either channel their ki into increasing their physical stats, or use that ki as beam attacks. It's the same thing with them.

I would find it easier to accept kicking a Planet-busting ball as enduring the attack if he had it blown up in his face like Anime Trunks did rather than just hitting the ball away before it blew up. Much like Karate Kid flinging a speeding Kryptonian into another star system is about the redirection rather than a clean feat for Val's strength. I mean how much of it's energy can it seriously release without exploding?

As for controling their physical strikes like compressing energy: How is Character A controlling exactly how hard Character B hits a mountain after punching them in the face and sending them flying? Are you saying they can apply all of that ki enhanced physical force to their opponent AND control how that kinetic energy will behave as it transfers from their target into anything they impact?

If so is there anything actually saying this within the Manga or something truly official, or is it conjecture?

[Hazard]

How is Character A controlling exactly how hard Character B hits a mountain after punching them in the face and sending them flying? Are you saying they can apply all of that ki enhanced physical force to their opponent AND control how that kinetic energy will behave as it transfers from their target into anything they impact?

That's not how strength works.

You're thinking too much in comic book terms where Superman can lift a plane.

In DB if you punch someone into a mountain the character will only go through it at best, because that's how strength works there. Same for throwing things (Example: Goten).

Edit: On the Frieza kicking a planet buster thing.

It's the same situation as Superman blowing up the moon which would have destroyed the planet.

[Dalak]

That's not how strength works.

You're thinking too much in comic book terms where Superman can lift a plane.

In DB if you punch someone into a mountain the character will only go through it at best, because that's how strength works there. Same for throwing things (Example: Goten).

Edit: On the Frieza kicking a planet buster thing.

It's the same situation as Superman blowing up the moon which would have destroyed the planet.

I have no idea what you are trying to get me to understand, would you mind clarifying this? Physics works screwy everywhere, from comic book bricks picking up Buildings, Mountains, and Islands whole without them shattering, to folks without some sort of Deus Ex Machina like the Speed Force preventing relativistic speeds from having side-effects not causing them, and many other things that 'just work that way'.

Can you tell me how strength does work in DBZ, since it seems to be very inconsistent to me?

I also don't understand comparing kicking something that doesn't explode to ramming oneself into a Moon.

[Hazard]

I have no idea what you are trying to get me to understand, would you mind clarifying this? Physics works screwy everywhere, from comic book bricks picking up Buildings, Mountains, and Islands whole without them shattering, to folks without some sort of Deus Ex Machina like the Speed Force preventing relativistic speeds from having side-effects not causing them, and many other things that 'just work that way'.

Can you tell me how strength does work in DBZ, since it seems to be very inconsistent to me?

It's totally consistent.

DB is about striking. It's about power focused on a small area. It's actually more realistic in that sense than normal comic book settings.

In most cases only a small area will be affected in spite of how great the strength used is.

When Goku kicks Frieza, he doesn't destroy the islands he hits, he goes through them.

When Buu punches a Ki blast, it doesn't create a giant crater, it goes through the planet.

When early Goku punches the ground, he just makes a small hole in it not a gigantic one in spite of having strength exceeding hundreds of tons.

When Goten throws a rock, it goes through a mountain. It doesn't blow it up.

When Goku punches King Kai planet, it doesn't explode, the impact travels through it and then breaks it when it comes out through the other side.

DB works under the principle of power working on a small area.

That's why only "Explosion type" Ki blasts are the ones that usually blow up planets. It's not because they are the stronger Ki blasts but rather because they are the ones that create a bigger AOE.

I also don't understand comparing kicking something that doesn't explode to ramming oneself into a Moon.

Just like Superman only needs to be tougher than the Moon, Frieza only needs to be stronger than the Kinetic force of the Ki blasts.

If it had blow up it would be another deal, but we never saw Vegeta's blast actually "act".

[Dalak]

It's totally consistent.

DB is about striking. It's about power focused on a small area. It's actually more realistic in that sense than normal comic book settings.

In most cases only a small area will be affected in spite of how great the strength used is.

When Goku kicks Frieza, he doesn't destroy the islands he hits, he goes through them.

When Buu punches a Ki blast, it doesn't create a giant crater, it goes through the planet.

When early Goku punches the ground, he just makes a small hole in it not a gigantic one in spite of having strength exceeding hundreds of tons.

When Goten throws a rock, it goes through a mountain. It doesn't blow it up.

When Goku punches King Kai planet, it doesn't explode, the impact travels through it and then breaks it when it comes out through the other side.

DB works under the principle of power working on a small area.

That's why only "Explosion type" Ki blasts are the ones that usually blow up planets. It's not because they are the stronger Ki blasts but rather because they are the ones that create a bigger AOE.

It just seems to me that 'it just works like that' doesn't mean 'it just works like that because of deliberate concentration' without something explicitly saying so.

Just like Superman only needs to be tougher than the Moon, Frieza only needs to be stronger than the Kinetic force of the Ki blasts.

If it had blow up it would be another deal, but we never saw Vegeta's blast actually "act".

Then how powerful is the energy of it's movement compared to it's explosive potential? Is there any way to tell, or even to guess? That's very frustrating to me, and I hope that's understandable.

I feel that assuming it's kinetic energy to be anywhere near close to 100% of it's explosive energy without something explicit again is wrong, considering how everything else is generally treated on CBR.

Also I've never really been comfortable accepting 'It just works that way' at face value in any circumstance, but that's a personal pet peeve and not exclusive to DBZ or any other fiction.