Young Justice Dark Crisis

[Hol]

Alan Scott is a textbook example of how to properly handle a change in a character’s sexuality.

Bobby Drake is a textbook example of how NOT to do it.

Tim is in-between the two, but in my opinion is leaning a little more towards Bobby in terms of execution.

Yeah I agree. You summed up my feelings on this. I can't roll my eyes enough of how Bobby was handled and i love Bendis Marvel work.

[Hol]

Yeah, with Alan it made sense. Of course he'd hide his true sexuality in the 1940s, homosexuality was illegal back then. He almost certainly waited for his second wife to die of old age before coming out to his kids, one of whom is gay himself. Him getting married at all served two purposes - it hides that he was gay, and it was an attempt to reform his villains (his first wife who ran off was Thorn, his second was the first Harlequin).

Yeah it actually adds so much more depth to the character. I always loved Alan and I love his character even more now. Tim now feels like gimmick to me. I hate to say because he is my favorite Robin. Hands down.

[SomeRandomSmartA55]

Yeah I agree. You summed up my feelings on this. I can't roll my eyes enough of how Bobby was handled and i love Bendis Marvel work.

With Bobby I always felt they should have made him bi which would have gone over better, but yeah the gaslighting done to Bobby was just awful. Iceman used to be my favorite X-Man, key word used to.

I was somewhat relieved that they made Tim instead of full on gay, but the problem is he is being written as full on gay, which just makes me angry.

[Dataweaver]

And then they accuse the readers of being phobic if they're not on board with the change.

[SomeRandomSmartA55]

Despite the fact that many people in the communities they are trying to pander to are not fond of it either.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And Tim still had his solo book.

Heh, you just reminded me of that scene with Bart, Kon and Ray.

You know the one

[Digifiend]

I sure do. They were all complaining their favourite comic books were cancelled, which was meta, because they'd all just lost their solo books in real life!

[Dataweaver]

Despite the fact that many people in the communities they are trying to pander to are not found of it either.

Exactly this. And that's one of the problems with the current culture war and the tendency to assume that any criticism must be motivated by bigotry: you tend to dismiss the criticism that isn't motivated by bigotry. Fitzmartin is operating in a bubble, where she's assuming that any criticism that she's receiving is coming from “toxic fans”, and that the appropriate response is to ignore the criticisms and attack the critics.

And that's what we're seeing in DCYJ.

[skyvolt2000]

Exactly this. And that's one of the problems with the current culture war and the tendency to assume that any criticism must be motivated by bigotry: you tend to dismiss the criticism that isn't motivated by bigotry. Fitzmartin is operating in a bubble, where she's assuming that any criticism that she's receiving is coming from “toxic fans”, and that the appropriate response is to ignore the criticisms and attack the critics.

Because it generally IS motivated by bigotry.

Folks who are not interested or get soured by what they read-tend to just stop reading or buying the book. They are NOT going to waste time trying to tell you what is wrong and what turned them away.

The Toxic side does not stop throwing fits and attacking. Along with being fountains upon fountains of misinformation.
They attack something for existing. They use those buzz words in "reviews" or "sales" data to do NOTHING but trash the book.
Toxic side does NOT use LOGIC.

And to be fair to Fitzmartin-what if EVERYTHING she is getting is nothing but toxic fans attacking her?
Or as we tend to later learn-she is doing what DC WANTS her to do?

Before anyone dismisses that-see Marvel's Black Panther book-where they are HIRING folks who OPENLY hate T'Challa. The upcoming writer of Wakanda mini series said she hated the way Hudlin had T'Challa abuse/oppressed Storm. Something that NEVER happened. Shuri took over as Black Panther because she was disappointed in T'Challa. Another thing that NEVER happened.

If you are hiring folks to have an agenda in the first place-you get stuff like this and Black Panther and the removal of Jason Rusch from Firestorm and Peter Parker-the eternal loser.

[SuperX]

Because it generally IS motivated by bigotry.

Folks who are not interested or get soured by what they read-tend to just stop reading or buying the book. They are NOT going to waste time trying to tell you what is wrong and what turned them away.

The Toxic side does not stop throwing fits and attacking. Along with being fountains upon fountains of misinformation.
They attack something for existing. They use those buzz words in "reviews" or "sales" data to do NOTHING but trash the book.
Toxic side does NOT use LOGIC.

And to be fair to Fitzmartin-what if EVERYTHING she is getting is nothing but toxic fans attacking her?
Or as we tend to later learn-she is doing what DC WANTS her to do?

Before anyone dismisses that-see Marvel's Black Panther book-where they are HIRING folks who OPENLY hate T'Challa. The upcoming writer of Wakanda mini series said she hated the way Hudlin had T'Challa abuse/oppressed Storm. Something that NEVER happened. Shuri took over as Black Panther because she was disappointed in T'Challa. Another thing that NEVER happened.

If you are hiring folks to have an agenda in the first place-you get stuff like this and Black Panther and the removal of Jason Rusch from Firestorm and Peter Parker-the eternal loser.

You always go back to the same well,you are a broken record.

Fitzmartin is bad,no excuses will be given
DC is really bad too,so they suck also

Goodnight

[SomeRandomSmartA55]

Because it generally IS motivated by bigotry.

Folks who are not interested or get soured by what they read-tend to just stop reading or buying the book. They are NOT going to waste time trying to tell you what is wrong and what turned them away.

The Toxic side does not stop throwing fits and attacking. Along with being fountains upon fountains of misinformation.
They attack something for existing. They use those buzz words in "reviews" or "sales" data to do NOTHING but trash the book.
Toxic side does NOT use LOGIC.

And to be fair to Fitzmartin-what if EVERYTHING she is getting is nothing but toxic fans attacking her?
Or as we tend to later learn-she is doing what DC WANTS her to do?

Before anyone dismisses that-see Marvel's Black Panther book-where they are HIRING folks who OPENLY hate T'Challa. The upcoming writer of Wakanda mini series said she hated the way Hudlin had T'Challa abuse/oppressed Storm. Something that NEVER happened. Shuri took over as Black Panther because she was disappointed in T'Challa. Another thing that NEVER happened.

If you are hiring folks to have an agenda in the first place-you get stuff like this and Black Panther and the removal of Jason Rusch from Firestorm and Peter Parker-the eternal loser.

There's a lot more nuance to it than that.

Yes, there certainly is a large sect who hate creative changes based solely on bigotry. The thing is, bigotry will ALWAYS exist in the world. Constantly implying that your primary fanbase are all bigots is not gonna turn them on to your work. And the bigots are usually the loudest voices, but they are the minority compared to the rest. Most people are pro-diversity, but the execution is where the problem lies. Pushing for more diversity has an increased risk of tokenization which no one wants, yet that is all we seem to get lately. And those who are the more "progressive" can be just as bigoted (I'm bi and I have faced more backlash for being bi from the gays far more than from straights)

In the case of Fitzmartin, I just saw her twitter feed recently and it is filled with nothing but positive reviews and people constantly telling her how good she is. I do think her heart is in the right place (in regards to Tim's sexuality) but just because your heart is in the right place doesn't mean you are being helpful. Quite frankly the people who fight the hardest for "representation" are usually doing more damage to those they are trying to help. In my opinion she is doing more harm than good, and this Dark Crisis tie in feels like her lashing out at people who dared criticize her creative decisions. Even though her work has several very noticeable issues. Having Tim dump his long time girlfriend (someone he helped through a teenage pregnancy, was told about her sexual assault, and in his dying breath said that being with her was the time of his life and she helped him realize the kind of man he wants to be) for the conspiracy theorist who had the hots for his step-mom is out of character, has none of the necessary story build-up, feels incredibly forced, makes Tim look like a jerk, gives Stephanie the short end of the stick (again!), feels creatively bankrupt, is pandering to try to prove how much the writers "care" about the community, and lastly (I cannot stress this one enough) it's NOT how I want to be represented.

Then in Dark Crisis, in the first issue alone there are several really glaring continuity errors and every character she has written has in one way or another felt OOC. There are several instances of characters referencing events that have already been addressed or just flat out never happened. This book comes across as a being written by someone who either didn't read the original Young Justice series or someone who hated that series (why anyone would hate that series I have no idea)

Now DC editorial could play a hand, but she has said in interviews that she had the full support of editorial in her choices. And yet there are several instances where I find myself asking "why didn't editorial catch this?" So editorial is not off the hook.

In regards to review sites I constantly find the review with the highest scores don't have comment sections, where ones with lower scores usually do. And yes there are arguments and disagreements, and even bigots, but most of it is a conversation about what works and what doesn't. Criticism should not be yelling constantly at each other, it needs to be a conversation so that we can get better content.

[dietrich]

Because it generally IS motivated by bigotry.

Folks who are not interested or get soured by what they read-tend to just stop reading or buying the book. They are NOT going to waste time trying to tell you what is wrong and what turned them away.

The Toxic side does not stop throwing fits and attacking. Along with being fountains upon fountains of misinformation.
They attack something for existing. They use those buzz words in "reviews" or "sales" data to do NOTHING but trash the book.
Toxic side does NOT use LOGIC.

And to be fair to Fitzmartin-what if EVERYTHING she is getting is nothing but toxic fans attacking her?
Or as we tend to later learn-she is doing what DC WANTS her to do?

Before anyone dismisses that-see Marvel's Black Panther book-where they are HIRING folks who OPENLY hate T'Challa. The upcoming writer of Wakanda mini series said she hated the way Hudlin had T'Challa abuse/oppressed Storm. Something that NEVER happened. Shuri took over as Black Panther because she was disappointed in T'Challa. Another thing that NEVER happened.

If you are hiring folks to have an agenda in the first place-you get stuff like this and Black Panther and the removal of Jason Rusch from Firestorm and Peter Parker-the eternal loser.

Thank you for totally ignoring the very legitimate point of the fact that her writing might be problematic with those she's trying to appeal to and speak for.

As a gay man I have voiced several times the reasons why M/M,Queer men written by straight people is problematic and why it can cause real life harm.

Sometimes just stopping isn't enough when the material is perpetuating negative and harmful stereotypes. As Meghan's stories with Tim have done to some degree because they are written by someone who has zero context/frame of reference for what they are writing. She simply doesn't have the life experience so will occasionally fall into certain holes.

It's not all bigotry.
Plenty of posters on here have taken the time to detail why they have an issue. How dare you dismiss them/ What gives you that right?

You can't dismiss legitimate reasons and complaints as bigotry. That is not only disrespectful but a bullying tactic to get folks to shut up since no one wants to be grouped with hateful people.

For those complaining about it being fanfic or her shallow representation of Tim, why would you expect a straight woman to be able to convey what a coming out journey is like?
That's like asking a blind person to convey what if feels like experiencing the northern lights. Cut her some slack and understand the limitations. Or temper your expectations.

Skyvolt, not everyone has an agenda. Most people are actually decent and accepting. It's also not so easy to give up on a character that you've grown attached to.

There is no such thing as 'the Toxic side' All fans can be fanatical. We all throw fits because we are emotionally invested in characters.

Apathy means we can walk away.
Take yourself for example, the reason why you regularly lament the treatment of certain characters is because you have an attachment to them. You care.

That is why you keep repeating and highlighting their unfair treatment. You didn't just shut up and move on. You take the time to detail what is wrong in every post you make despite being soured by the big two for years now.

Stop dismissing legitimate concerns as bigotry.

[Digifiend]

There's a lot more nuance to it than that.

Yes, there certainly is a large sect who hate creative changes based solely on bigotry. The thing is, bigotry will ALWAYS exist in the world. Constantly implying that your primary fanbase are all bigots is not gonna turn them on to your work. And the bigots are usually the loudest voices, but they are the minority compared to the rest. Most people are pro-diversity, but the execution is where the problem lies. Pushing for more diversity has an increased risk of tokenization which no one wants, yet that is all we seem to get lately. And those who are the more "progressive" can be just as bigoted (I'm bi and I have faced more backlash for being bi from the gays far more than from straights)

In the case of Fitzmartin, I just saw her twitter feed recently and it is filled with nothing but positive reviews and people constantly telling her how good she is. I do think her heart is in the right place (in regards to Tim's sexuality) but just because your heart is in the right place doesn't mean you are being helpful. Quite frankly the people who fight the hardest for "representation" are usually doing more damage to those they are trying to help. In my opinion she is doing more harm than good, and this Dark Crisis tie in feels like her lashing out at people who dared criticize her creative decisions. Even though her work has several very noticeable. Having Tim dump his long time girlfriend (someone he helped through a teenage pregnancy, was told about her sexual assault, and in his dying breath said that being with her was the time of his life and she helped him realize the kind of man he wants to be) for the conspiracy theorist who had the hots for his step-mom is out of character, has none of the necessary story build-up, feels incredibly forced, makes Tim look like a jerk, gives Stephanie the short end of the stick (again!), feels creatively bankrupt, is pandering to try to prove how much the writers "care" about the community, and lastly (I cannot stress this one enough) it's NOT how I want to be represented.

Then in Dark Crisis, in the first issue alone there are several really glaring continuity errors and every character she has written has in one way or another felt OOC. There are several instances of characters referencing events that have already been addressed or just flat out never happened. This book comes across as a being written by someone who either didn't read the original Young Justice series or someone who hated that series (why anyone would hate that series I have no idea)

Now DC editorial could play a hand, but she has said in interviews that she had the full support of editorial in her choices. And yet there are several instances where I find myself asking "why didn't editorial catch this?" So editorial is not off the hook.

In regards to review sites I constantly find the review with the highest scores don't have comment sections, where ones with lower scores usually do. And yes there are arguments and disagreements, and even bigots, but most of it is a conversation about what works and what doesn't. Criticism should not be yelling constantly at each other, it needs to be a conversation so that we can get better content.

Yeah. A few examples:

• Deathstroke kneecapped Impulse. Nope, Jericho was possessing Slade at the time.
• Tim and Cassie hiding a relationship from Conner. Conner already knew and it was addressed in his book, Adventure Comics, before Flashpoint.
• The team didn't stay in touch with Cissie. Wrong, she actually rejoined the team in Bendis's run, so they'd spoken to her very recently. Also, she shouldn't still be retired as Arrowette.
• Cassie called in a favour from Hippolyta - who's dead. And Cassie mentioned that in issue 1 - Fitzmartin actually FORGOT when she did correctly use recent continuity.
• Why did Mickey's impersonation of Cassie use her second look with the blonde pigtails? That's anachronistic because Cassie still had the black wig when Young Justice started... and also, she joined the team AFTER the Mighty Endowed fight, not before, so the boys should've immediately realised they weren't in the past there and then.
• A statue at Titans Tower showed Conner as he looked in YJ, which isn't the right costume. Should've been the t-shirt and jeans look.
• And they were at the Tower in the first place because Happy Harbor's Young Justice HQ was destroyed... but it was already back up and running and the team had moved back in at the end of Bendis's run.
• And then there's Tim getting together with Bernard... she had to course correct there, because he hadn't been shown breaking up with Steph... and honestly WHY would the revelation cause a break-up? He's bi, not just gay, and yet when they finally explained it, she wrote it like the only thing wrong with Steph, was that she was a girl.

Based on that evidence, Fitzmartin didn't read Peter David's Young Justice, Geoff Johns' Teen Titans, or Bendis's Young Justice. All of which should've been mandatory research material for these characters. The editors have also dropped the ball.

[SomeRandomSmartA55]

Yeah. A few examples:

• Deathstroke kneecapped Impulse. Nope, Jericho was possessing Slade at the time.
• Tim and Cassie hiding a relationship from Conner. Conner already knew and it was addressed in his book, Adventure Comics, before Flashpoint.
• The team didn't stay in touch with Cissie. Wrong, she actually rejoined the team in Bendis's run, so they'd spoken to her very recently. Also, she shouldn't still be retired as Arrowette.
• Cassie called in a favour from Hippolyta - who's dead. And Cassie mentioned that in issue 1 - Fitzmartin actually FORGOT when she did correctly use recent continuity.
• Why did Mickey's impersonation of Cassie use her second look with the blonde pigtails? That's anachronistic because Cassie still had the black wig when Young Justice started... and also, she joined the team AFTER the Mighty Endowed fight, not before, so the boys should've immediately realised they weren't in the past there and then.
• A statue at Titans Tower showed Conner as he looked in YJ, which isn't the right costume. Should've been the t-shirt and jeans look.
• And they were at the Tower in the first place because Happy Harbor's Young Justice HQ was destroyed... but it was already back up and running and the team had moved back in at the end of Bendis's run.
• And then there's Tim getting together with Bernard... she had to course correct there, because he hadn't been shown breaking up with Steph... and honestly WHY would the revelation cause a break-up? He's bi, not just gay, and yet when they finally explained it, she wrote it like the only thing wrong with Steph, was that she was a girl.

Based on that evidence, Fitzmartin didn't read Peter David's Young Justice, Geoff Johns' Teen Titans, or Bendis's Young Justice. All of which should've been mandatory research material for these characters. The editors have also dropped the ball.

Not to mention:

• Cissie leaving the team because of how toxic the boys were…Ummm NO, Cissie left the team because she didn’t feel worthy of being a hero after she NEARLY KILLED SOMEONE, and the boys were being super helpful and supportive, If Kon hadn’t shown up in time that guy would’ve been dead, Bart was begging Cissie not to leave, and a Tim was the only one who respected and understood her decision, which she kissed him for (chicks dig the cape!)
• Conner being so bent up about how he died. When Conner came back to life he had such an optimistic outlook on life and when he moved back to Smallville he even said “I can’t believe I ever hated this place” He even held onto hope that there is some good in Lex Luthor, something not even Clark can do
• saying that most of the villains they thought were women, people from other countries, and people trying to do their best. I didn’t realize The sociopath Harm, literal demons, a teletubby death cult, government organizations kidnapping children, a nation of supervillains, and DARKSEID were just people trying to do good.
• Also where is Empress and Secret? Those two haven’t had any appearances for quite some time now. And including the first female member and the one black member seems like a massive oversight.
  
  Edit:
• Oh and the time Cissie said all the boys were crying over their “fake dads.” Ugh. Barry may not be Bart’s dad but he is his grandad. Conner has no parents, the closest thing he has is Lex Luthor & Clark since he is a clone of the two of them. Plus Clark gave him a home with Ma & Pa and even gave him his name! Oh and as for Tim…BRUCE ADOPTED TIM, HE IS TIM’S DAD (that one really irks me because “Face the Face” is my favorite Batman storyline)
  

And thank you mentioning how he didn’t need to dump Steph to be bi. I would kill to see a story where a guy has to tell his girl that he’s bi and have her be okay with it (cuz that’s something not every bi guy gets to have)

[Dataweaver]

Apparently, Fitzmartin incorrectly classified Empress as a villain that YJ fought.

And Tim is being called bisexual; but he's being written as gay.