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  1. #166
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    Yes, yes it is. Because you're flat wrong, that's why. The fact is that a solid majority of fans and likely several writers always saw Tim as non-straight but had to go along with what they thought editorial would let them get away with.
    Name one person who wrote Robin, prior to Fitzmartin; and give a citation backing it up: where did they say that they thought that Tim was secretly gay or bi?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    Fitzmartin's just the one that pulled the trigger so to speak and got away with it. She gets a lot wrong but that's not among it. And no, calling out people crying that a character came out of the closet using the same sad non-arguments that comicsgators use isn't bigotry.
    By definition, judging an entire group by stereotypes is bigotry. Knock it off.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    And funny you mention Obsidian but he is a character that was straight at first then came out of the closet too.
    When was he straight? Citation, please.
    Rogue wears rouge.
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  2. #167
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    nmmnmmmm dded df eff ffrfrfr

  3. #168
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    If you don’t want to be called phobic, maybe criticize the execution instead of the entire idea of someone coming out of the closet. Because the execution is poor. But Tim being Bi doesn’t mean he was never in love with Stephanie at some point, and saying that just because his creator didn’t envision him as such when the character was made over thirty years ago is a cop out suggesting that new facets of a character can’t be introduced.

    Also, this Alan Scott is supposedly in-cannon with the previous version, so if he counts as a new version of Alan Scott then this is a “new” version of Tim Drake as well.

  4. #169
    Incredible Member scourge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    When was he straight? Citation, please.
    When he debuted way back in Infinity Inc.

  5. #170
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    I'm not criticizing the entire idea of someone coming out of the closet. To the extent I'm criticizing anything beyond the bigotry of lumping all critics of Tim's sexuality change into one group, it's the idea that Tim Drake, specifically was in the closet in the first place. I'm not saying that he couldn't have been bi and been in love with Stephanie; so don't try to set up that strawman. It's that there was nothing in his prior characterization to support the notion that he was secretly bisexual; and given the access we readers were given to his innermost thoughts, there would have been.

    Also, this Alan Scott is supposedly in-cannon with the previous version, so if he counts as a new version of Alan Scott then this is a “new” version of Tim Drake as well.
    Two points here. First, a technicality: I have seen nothing to indicate that the current Alan Scott has any connection to the New 52 Alan Scott: they're not even from the same Earth.

    But second, saying that this is a new version of Tim, and that the original one, who would now be in Hypertime by that logic, is straight, is apparently still enough to be accused of bigotry.

    You're painting with too broad of a brush.
    Rogue wears rouge.
    Angel knows all the angles.

  6. #171
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    When he debuted way back in Infinity Inc.
    Provide the evidence that he was straight back then.
    Rogue wears rouge.
    Angel knows all the angles.

  7. #172
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    People can realize their own sexuality later in life, especially when they were raised in an environment where homosexuality was treated as abnormal or even just one where everyone is expected to be straight. There’s a reason the Closet Key is a trope.

  8. #173
    Incredible Member scourge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Provide the evidence that he was straight back then.
    Go read the comic, I don't keep them all at hand.
    He didn't get to actually come out until A LOT later after debuting. Post Crisis in fact. Until after he was temporarily a villain.
    Last edited by scourge; 09-22-2022 at 07:57 PM.

  9. #174
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saithor View Post
    People can realize their own sexuality later in life, especially when they were raised in an environment where homosexuality was treated as abnormal or even just one where everyone is expected to be straight. There’s a reason the Closet Key is a trope.
    But there are usually indications along the way. With Tim, there weren't.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 09-22-2022 at 08:01 PM.
    Rogue wears rouge.
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  10. #175
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    Go read the damn comic.
    You're the one making the claim. Back it up.
    Rogue wears rouge.
    Angel knows all the angles.

  11. #176
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    On the subject of Obsidian... The original plan was for Jade to have a gay twin brother Harlequin. The idea morphed into the character of Obsidian, very different but Obsidian did still take the role in Infinity Inc and the Scott family that was intended for Harlequin.
    Obsidian had a couple of awkward dates with a woman that went nowhere in those early years. During his time in the JLA Obsidian confessed to Nuklon that he was in love with him, but didn't label himself at that time.
    So you could make the argument that being gay was baked into Obsidian in the planning stage.
    As long as there is homophobia, there will be people in the closet. As fiction reflects life that means some fictional characters can be read as being closeted. For years social pressures and editorial restrictions would've prevented writers from writing characters as openly LGBT. So that now some established characters are coming out only seems natural.
    Tim's coming out unfortunately wasn't handled well, but it's part of his story now. There are still few openly queer male super heroes (there's quite a few more queer women in comics as they're more accepted by straight men), so I'd expect Tim being bi will stick. There's still 98% orso of male characters still heterosexual.

  12. #177
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    And that's a perfectly reasonable position to hold. I will note that you did not say anything about people who disagree with you. That puts you leagues ahead of others here.
    Rogue wears rouge.
    Angel knows all the angles.

  13. #178
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    The series Convergence later claimed the NU 52 Earth 2 characters were the orginal JSA reborn. Anyway the recent finished Hawkman series had the Hawks reborn in spacetime in multiple times and places. But that approach doesn't apply to everyone

    However yeah pre nu52, the Earth 2 Justice Society Infinity or whatever it was called on Earth 2 were just copies.

  14. #179
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.Z View Post
    The series Convergence later claimed the NU 52 Earth 2 characters were the orginal JSA reborn. Anyway the recent finished Hawkman series had the Hawks reborn in spacetime in multiple times and places. But that approach doesn't apply to everyone

    However yeah pre nu52, the Earth 2 Justice Society Infinity or whatever it was called on Earth 2 were just copies.
    Convergence also claimed that all 52 worlds of the orrery are evolved versions of surviving worlds from the original infinite Earths. It's claims need to be taken with a grain of salt. Besides, last I checked, The New 52 Earth 2 is still out there; and the Alan Scott that we saw in infinite Frontier showed no signs of having any recollection of anything involving that world. It doesn't mean that there wasn't anything; but I strongly doubt that there was.
    Rogue wears rouge.
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  15. #180
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    Still to me writers are gonna contradict over themselves and older stories. May have to accept its all true or wrttien things override other things later on.

    Alan wouldn't have recollections because Snyders memories thing isn't being used.

    Infinite Froniter has retro looking huntress, suggesting NU Earth 2 was overidden.

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