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[Aahz]

Name one person who wrote Robin, prior to Fitzmartin; and give a citation backing it up: where did they say that they thought that Tim was secretly gay or bi?

But even if would their opinion really matter? Non on the writers who wrote Tim's Solo after Dixon, wrote him that long (I think most were on the just a year or two), and non of them were really major writers of the Batman franchise.

So what they thought doesn't have much weight imo.

[witchboy]

In case of new characters maybe, but in case of character like Tim Drake, Jon Kent or Obsidian that has been arround for some time there needs to be at least some character development make that work.

People who want LGBT diversity also want good writing and character development.

[Triniking1234]

You're fighting a lost cause against these Tim x Kon shippers, Dataweaver.

But even if would their opinion really matter? Non on the writers who wrote Tim's Solo after Dixon, wrote him that long (I think most were on the just a year or two), and non of them were really major writers of the Batman franchise.

So what they thought doesn't have much weight imo.

Fitzmartin didn't write Tim for a long period and is also not a major Batman writer so why should her writing be accepted when it contradicts the past but the other writers shouldn't when they're a major part of Tim's history especially stuff like David's YJ vol., Cataclysm and War Games, Identity Crisis, John's Teen Titans, Red Robin, Lobdell.

[Dataweaver]

People who want LGBT diversity also want good writing and character development.

But for the most part, they're not getting it.

[Dataweaver]

You're fighting a lost cause against these Tim x Kon shippers, Dataweaver.

The only cause I'm fighting for is to not be labeled a bigot simply for not liking that Fitzmartin made Tim bisexual.

Fitzmartin didn't write Tim for a long period and is also not a major Batman writer so why should her writing be accepted when it contradicts the past but the other writers shouldn't when they're a major part of Tim's history especially stuff like David's YJ vol., Cataclysm and War Games, Identity Crisis, John's Teen Titans, Red Robin, Lobdell.

To be fair, Aahz was never arguing that Fitzmartin is more credible than any of these writers. What has been argued by others is that Dixon is less credible, despite having been the defining writer for Robin, because he's been labeled a bigot.

[scourge]

People who want LGBT diversity also want good writing and character development.

Of course we do.

But the issue is the phobic whiners either refuse to accept any amount of development or use the lack of it as an excuse to say there shouldn't be diversity.

[HsssH]

Of course we do.

Defending bad writing is unlikely to lead to good writing.

[witchboy]

But for the most part, they're not getting it.

Then the problem is with bad writers, not LGBT characters.

[witchboy]

The only cause I'm fighting for is to not be labeled a bigot simply for not liking that Fitzmartin made Tim bisexual.


To be fair, Aahz was never arguing that Fitzmartin is more credible than any of these writers. What has been argued by others is that Dixon is less credible, despite having been the defining writer for Robin, because he's been labeled a bigot.

What LGBT characters do you like? What characters do you think should or could be shown to be LGBT?

[Dataweaver]

Then the problem is with bad writers, not LGBT characters.

Agreed; and I've never said otherwise. My objection isn't to LGBT characters in general; it's to making Tim, specifically, LGBT.

What LGBT characters do you like? What characters do you think should or could be shown to be LGBT?

I've already answered that: Wonder Woman and Batwoman top the list, although in Wonder Woman's case she could stand to lean into her LGBT roots a bit more. Apollo and Midnighter. Obsidian. Renee Montoya (I really wish we could get her back as the Question). I'm not fond of what they've done with Jon Kent; but that has less to do with his sexuality per se than with the fact that they aged him up; I preferred him as a preteen Superboy.

My main objection to Tim being bisexual isn't the bisexuality itself so much as the fact that I generally object to the practice of taking a character who has been presented from day one as heterosexual (and not because “the comic code didn't allow LGBT at the time”) and having them come out of the closet. Shooting over to Marvel for a moment, I'd have no problem if Kitty Pryde were to be revealed to be bisexual; because that was the original intent for the character. By contrast, Bobby Drake (Iceman) was never intended to be gay; it was shoehorned into the character.

[witchboy]

I've already answered that: Wonder Woman and Batwoman top the list, although in Wonder Woman's case she could stand to lean into her LGBT roots a bit more. Apollo and Midnighter. Obsidian. Renee Montoya (I really wish we could get her back as the Question). I'm not fond of what they've done with Jon Kent; but that has less to do with his sexuality per se than with the fact that they aged him up; I preferred him as a preteen Superboy.

My main objection to Tim being bisexual isn't the bisexuality itself so much as the fact that I generally object to the practice of taking a character who has been presented from day one as heterosexual (and not because “the comic code didn't allow LGBT at the time”) and having them come out of the closet. Shooting over to Marvel for a moment, I'd have no problem if Kitty Pryde were to be revealed to be bisexual; because that was the original intent for the character. By contrast, Bobby Drake (Iceman) was never intended to be gay; it was shoehorned into the character.

There are whole essays about the subtext built up around Iceman being gay.
While I don't think Stan Lee intended it, Fabian Nicizia, Scott Lobdell and Marjorie Lui all said they wrote him as closeted gay. In the mid 90s Lobdell had Iceman try to come out as gay (the word is never used but the intention seemed obvious to me) but was interrupted. This was when Marvel had a no gays policy.
The historic discrimination of LGBT people obviously prevented much representation until very recently. New characters rarely catch on and stick around, so if a few characters didn't come out there'd be few queer men except for Z listers. Bunker is a good example. I really like the character, he was created gay right out of the box, and now is relegated to rare appearances. We do need a fair number of A and B listers that are queer men.
I would've preferred keeping Jon Kent as a kid, and having Conner come out as bi (and date Tim). But DC didn't ask me what I wanted. Conner has always been very concerned about his public image so I could believe he'd repress his interest in men and lean into his interest in women for his image. He could've also not seen it worth the trouble to come out if he was already in love with Tim but Tim said he was straight and usually involved with one girl or another.
I celebrate Tim and Jon coming out, but both their relationships are just ok at best. Tim and Conner could've (and still could be) a power couple that was more dynamic.
Tim being bi at least doesn't erase any of his opposite sex feelings and relationships. He is still a teenager so it's not unbelievable he's still figuring things out.
The Bat verse really did need a few queer male heroes. At one point most of the women in the Bat books were gay or bi while all the men were straight, which was pretty strange and unbalanced. If they'd kept Tim straight and created a new queer Robin people would've just complained that we didn't need a new Robin (and we don't) so there wouldn't have been any pleasing anyone with that either.

[Dataweaver]

Fair enough. But I should be able to disagree with you about Tim without being labeled a bigot.

[scourge]

There are whole essays about the subtext built up around Iceman being gay.
While I don't think Stan Lee intended it, Fabian Nicizia, Scott Lobdell and Marjorie Lui all said they wrote him as closeted gay. In the mid 90s Lobdell had Iceman try to come out as gay (the word is never used but the intention seemed obvious to me) but was interrupted. This was when Marvel had a no gays policy.
The historic discrimination of LGBT people obviously prevented much representation until very recently. New characters rarely catch on and stick around, so if a few characters didn't come out there'd be few queer men except for Z listers. Bunker is a good example. I really like the character, he was created gay right out of the box, and now is relegated to rare appearances. We do need a fair number of A and B listers that are queer men.
I would've preferred keeping Jon Kent as a kid, and having Conner come out as bi (and date Tim). But DC didn't ask me what I wanted. Conner has always been very concerned about his public image so I could believe he'd repress his interest in men and lean into his interest in women for his image. He could've also not seen it worth the trouble to come out if he was already in love with Tim but Tim said he was straight and usually involved with one girl or another.
I celebrate Tim and Jon coming out, but both their relationships are just ok at best. Tim and Conner could've (and still could be) a power couple that was more dynamic.

There's a ton of the same subtext around characters like Tim Drake. And I suspect as time goes on, we'll hear from more writers about things they wanted to do but were prevented from doing by editorial and anti-LGBTQ policies.

And its not just that new characters don't stick, its often that they aren't given a fair shot at sticking.

[witchboy]

Fair enough. But I should be able to disagree with you about Tim without being labeled a bigot.

I never said you were.
There are nuances to the issue of the lack of prominent queer men in comics that come from historic discrimination that are difficult to fix. Just making new characters isn't a solution if those characters don't stick around or gain prominence.
Maybe the awkwardness of adjusting to the change in the character is worth the positives of establishing fair diversity now. Otherwise, things would continue moving forward without that fair diversity that should've always been there.

[witchboy]

There's a ton of the same subtext around characters like Tim Drake. And I suspect as time goes on, we'll hear from more writers about things they wanted to do but were prevented from doing by editorial and anti-LGBTQ policies.

And its not just that new characters don't stick, its often that they aren't given a fair shot at sticking.

Tim's extreme grief over Conner's death sticks out for me as subtext for Tim's feelings.
I'd love to hear from writers who wanted to do more but were prevented - both with Tim and with other characters. Jericho was considered to be created gay but Perez and Wolfman didn't follow through because they thought he'd be too stereotypical, yet they failed to create non stereotypical gay characters. It's really frustrating. As a gay kid who grew up in the 80s without any gay role models, a gay Jericho would've changed my life. That's why representation matters. Everyone should see themselves reflected in the media, and people who aren't minorities should see diversity too, to foster a more accepting world.