Young Justice Dark Crisis

[The Cool Thatguy]

The funny thing is, there's actually the ingredients of a decent story in this mess.

The notion of using Mickey Mxyzptlk as a stand-in for "toxic fanboys who celebrate all the icky things about nostalgia," while a bit of a Superboy-Prime retread, is nevertheless right in line with the kind of on-the-nose parody/satire that Peter David used to do back in the day. So it could've worked.

Also, the *idea* of tossing the male YJ members in a whack, filtered-through-a-toxic-gaze dreamworld of their past adventures is also kind of interesting. Done well, it could be used as an opportunity to show how the characters have grown over the years, acknowledge some of the actual cringe in their pasts, and, as a side benefit, plant a few continuity stakes in their ever-fluctuating continuities.

Of course, for all of this to work, the YJ team would have to not behave like morons. Three issues of wallowing in Mickey's dumb-ass, dreamworld, rather than outright rejecting it immediately, makes the team look lame.

And that's not even mentioning the inexplicable stuff going on with Cassie and Cissie.

Ugh.

Agreed.

Has this writer ever read Young Justice?

Among other things, when Cissie retired as Arrowette, she still remained as part of the cast

[Dataweaver]

Two things we have to take into consideration is the time frame we got Tim's adventures and the YJ team books.

What books in the 90s at DC was showing a well down LGBTQA+ character? In fact what books were even ALLOWED to do so? Excluding Milestone. We saw Static's thoughts about Richie being gay and even questioning his own sexuality.

DC was not going to allow that in the mainstream universe at that time despite having Ivan Valdez working for them-who was openly gay.

We had characters state they were gay and that as far as it went. Hi Todd Rice and Tasmanian Devil.
Natasha Irons was NEVER shown interested in women under Priest in Steel or even Infinity Inc. Yet she is now despite her flirting with Supergirl's almost boyfriend Ben in Titans. Then again no book has developed her like Steel series did.
Nubia too. In the few times we saw her before New 52.
Vixen as well. At least Tee Franklin's Harley run and she copped a huge attitude about it.
At Archie Nancy Woods dumped Chuck for another woman in Archie Afterlife and the reboot pretty much erased her.


I think the complaint is we never got to see the journey that lead to Tim's new look on life and that flat out falls on EDITORIAL who treated Tim and his generation like crap for 10+ years.

Along with YJ being treated as something toxic when that run was NOT toxic and these guys would never act like that.

I get what you're saying; but no. We have Chuck Dixon's opinion on the matter; and as he's the guy who wrote Tim for all of his minis and the first decade of his ongoing, making him the expert of Tim Drake, he has started that this business of Trim being bisexual is not what was intended for Tim.

Specifically, I agree that your point applies to the other people that you named, and perhaps to others as well. But not to Tim.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I get what you're saying; but no. We have Chuck Dixon's opinion on the matter; and as he's the guy who wrote Tim for all of his minis and the first decade of his ongoing, making him the expert of Tim Drake, he has started that this business of Trim being bisexual is not what was intended for Tim.

I mean Dixon is a massive asshat though.............

[Rac7d*]

The funny thing is, there's actually the ingredients of a decent story in this mess.

The notion of using Mickey Mxyzptlk as a stand-in for "toxic fanboys who celebrate all the icky things about nostalgia," while a bit of a Superboy-Prime retread, is nevertheless right in line with the kind of on-the-nose parody/satire that Peter David used to do back in the day. So it could've worked.

Also, the *idea* of tossing the male YJ members in a whack, filtered-through-a-toxic-gaze dreamworld of their past adventures is also kind of interesting. Done well, it could be used as an opportunity to show how the characters have grown over the years, acknowledge some of the actual cringe in their pasts, and, as a side benefit, plant a few continuity stakes in their ever-fluctuating continuities.

Of course, for all of this to work, the YJ team would have to not behave like morons. Three issues of wallowing in Mickey's dumb-ass, dreamworld, rather than outright rejecting it immediately, makes the team look lame.

And that's not even mentioning the inexplicable stuff going on with Cassie and Cissie.

Ugh.

How do you show somone learning and growing from their past when they are not allowed to grow up? That’s what’s separates Tim from dick Jason and Damian. And worse he being the leader of his generation means they all share the same fate.

[Dataweaver]

I mean Dixon is a massive asshat though.............

Irrelevant. The point isn't whether or not you like dixon; the point is that is an authority, perhaps the authority, on Tim Drake.

[scourge]

I mean Dixon is a massive asshat though.............

He's also entirely irrelevant these days.

[Aahz]

I mean Dixon is a massive asshat though.............

Like him or not, he was the defining writer for a a lot of the Batfamily, and especially when it comes to Dick and Tim his runs are the ones all others get compared against.

And his work definitely still more relevant than the one of most writers that came after him.

And I find it actually pretty wired that Taylor pays constantly tribute to Marv Wolfman and George Perez in his Nightwing run, even if most of the stuff he is using as foundation is from Dixon.

[OOPS]

He's also entirely irrelevant these days.

To you, perhaps. I find him very relevant to the topic if Tim Drake. Far more relevant than Fitzmartin.

Perhaps instead of attacking Dixon, you could point to evidence that Dixon is incorrect and that were signs within the texts or drawings that Tim was gay or bi? Kind of like Midnighter who was introduced as a gay character... in the 90s? Or even quotes from people who wrote Tim during the time before Fitzmartin where they indicated that they were writing or drawing Tim as a bi man who was not ready to explore his identity yet?

[Digifiend]

Also the Titans Tower in this issue is an abandoned one from pre-New52 and not the one from Titans Academy, right?

Yeah, it's the San Francisco Titans Tower that first appeared in 2003 - it had already been reintroduced when Bart came back. He was looking for his friends, checked the abandoned Tower, before eventually finding Tim in Metropolis in Bendis's first Young Justice issue.

TTA's Titans Tower was in New York, a location that's regularly hosted the Titans since New Teen Titans in 1980.

[sunofdarkchild]

Dixon is the authority on the Tim he wrote, but the Tim PAD wrote in Young Justice was a completely different character from Dixon's Tim. Dixon's Tim never had any intention of spending his whole life as Robin or Batman. He saw it as something temporary which he would eventually stop doing, and he considered retiring from vigilantism altogether a number of times. PAD's Tim was all 'I'll continue to fight as long as crime exists and never stop' like the mini-Bruce he was turned into after Dixon left. Given that the things that are cited as evidence that Tim wasn't straight come from the Young Justice side of things, especially the Tim/Kon shipping, I think I can accept the idea that the Young Justice Tim was bi all along even if the Robin Tim wasn't. PAD's version ultimately won out over Dixon's version.

[Rac7d*]

He's also entirely irrelevant these days.

Irrelevant how he’s done way to much for the Batman franchise to ever be irrelevant. His work influences those characters today. Batgirl year one was nearly a motion picture. That’s just so incredibly untrue.

[The Invincible Beawulf]

There's legit criticism of the book and Fitzmartin's work. Tim Drake being LGBTQ+ isn't among it.

All the "Waah the REAL Tim is straight! Waaah this is a fake!" whining is just being phobic.

Exactly.

[Triniking1234]

The funny thing is, there's actually the ingredients of a decent story in this mess.

The notion of using Mickey Mxyzptlk as a stand-in for "toxic fanboys who celebrate all the icky things about nostalgia," while a bit of a Superboy-Prime retread, is nevertheless right in line with the kind of on-the-nose parody/satire that Peter David used to do back in the day. So it could've worked.

Also, the *idea* of tossing the male YJ members in a whack, filtered-through-a-toxic-gaze dreamworld of their past adventures is also kind of interesting. Done well, it could be used as an opportunity to show how the characters have grown over the years, acknowledge some of the actual cringe in their pasts, and, as a side benefit, plant a few continuity stakes in their ever-fluctuating continuities.

Of course, for all of this to work, the YJ team would have to not behave like morons. Three issues of wallowing in Mickey's dumb-ass, dreamworld, rather than outright rejecting it immediately, makes the team look lame.

And that's not even mentioning the inexplicable stuff going on with Cassie and Cissie.

Ugh.

Pretty sure the Flash tie-in did that and it came out good. This book just wants to trash the characters and the fans for some reason.

[ducklord]

How do you show somone learning and growing from their past when they are not allowed to grow up? That’s what’s separates Tim from dick Jason and Damian. And worse he being the leader of his generation means they all share the same fate.

That's one of the many outright weirdnesses of this mini.

Tim Drake is a character who, under this writer's pen, is a teenager of some indeterminate age, who has had many many adventures as Robin. He's been in Young Justice, has been a Titan, has mourned Conner and Bart's death, and celebrated their return. He's had various romantic relationships, and has recently been on an (arguably all-too-brief) voyage of discovery, realizing that he's bisexual. In the Batfamily, he's the fifth most veteran member of a group that now has almost a dozen members, depending on how you're counting.

In short, he's got history, and he's seen some shite.

But this mini is treating Tim (and the rest of them) like they've had almost no personal growth at all, and for no discernable reason other than to score a few metatextual points.

So frustrating.

[lordozone]

It seems that there is no more editor and editorial line at dc. That all the worst writers have signed on here. It's crazy, it reminds me of Marvel after Secret Wars (only worse, there's not even a clear general direction) and, I'm not even a big fan of young justice, but authors who insult the fans, rightly or wrongly, it's always a bad idea...