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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    3rd eye was forcing himself into the minds of others and forcing them to do something they didn't want to do (ie smash)
    And you know this how? Showing people the future of their children as it currently stands and asking if they are really ready for kids is not mind control We save that for Emma Frost and Professor X

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    (...)Edit: see that you already responded to the Charles and Erik bit. Charles and Erik aren’t directly blocking contraceptives but I can certainly see them wanting to control the narrative of Make More Mutants.
    Considering that they were in a (even bigger) "the end justifies the means" mentality ever since HOX/POX retconned their goals and history into a different direction, it would seem in line for them to desire having as many "viable bodies" of mutants as quickly as possible in order to expand the power base and size of Krakoa and it's population.

    Especialy once we consider that Legion and Proteus were now seemingly planned creations by Moira and Xavier for said goals.

    There is also the potential presence of a cold calculation fueled by pride and arrogance that if mutants are "immortal" now and can provide their worth to the community and nation for centuries to come, it might not matter how good or bad the first twenty years of their lifes are, as long as they fill the numbers of people and increase the usable number of mutant powers.
    Worse they might even think that misery builds character and it's a desierable backround to produce "hardier" people (Apocalypse would certainly agree).

    And then there is the whole factor of mutants being born with random powers and on different levels of performance. So as long as purpose produced artifical born mutants (chimeras) aren't an accepted option yet, they can only have more potential Storms, Iceman or Jean Greys quickly by playing the lottery with as many tickets (children) as possible.

    All the nice little implications of making "Make More Mutants" an absolute law that is punished via livelong suffering in stasis when hindered or broken (the fact that someone feels the need to create an enforced law that demands constant increase in population should always be a red flag for a fictional society).

    "Live long and prosper." This is not.

    Which certainly would make it a problem for those who made and enforce the law for the above reasons, if someone goes around and convinces people to actualy bother about the quality of their childrens' upbringing rather than their quantity.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    Considering that they were in a (even bigger) "the end justifies the means" mentality ever since HOX/POX retconned their goals and history into a different direction, it would seem in line for them to desire having as many "viable bodies" of mutants as quickly as possible in order to expand the power base and size of Krakoa and it's population.

    Especialy once we consider that Legion and Proteus were now seemingly planned creations by Moira and Xavier for said goals.
    This part. Chuck is more than willing to bring abused and neglected kids into this world if it increases Krakoa’s influence and power.

    I’ll also add that while a lot of these crimes seem small compared to the sentencing, that’s the point. One thing that has been consistent throughout the books is that if you’re a mutant that “matters” then the rules apply differently to you. If you’re an Omega, a member of the QC (looking at you Sinister who gets away with murder because of his DNA samples), sanctioned by the government, or even part of a well known family then the rules get bent for you. The mutants thrown in the Pit after Victor don’t “matter” so the response to their crimes was essentially to erase them from existence.

  4. #34
    Julian Keller Supremacy Rift's Avatar
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    I still don't think it works. Even with their current mindset, Magneto would be highly against comdemning an innocent mutant for helping other mutants in a victimless crime. And if the narrative was an issue, Xavier would have freed him once the narrative changed - which it did the second someone pointed out the flaws in the Make More Mutants rule.

    And I get the idea of some mutants being treated differently. It's a good point for a franchise that routinely neglects characters. But Sabretooth is a bad example; guinea pig or not, he absolutely deserved the Pit and arguably worse. He is willfully evil and knowingly broke the rules for no good reason. You can't really judge Oya, Nekra and Madison too much because we don't know the context, and we know Melter was not as innocent as he claimed. Even if Third Eye's judgment was true, it doesn't gel with the rest of Krakoa.

    Like I get what's being said, and the Council needs a rude awakening. But it feels weird when we barely know what went on behind the scenes. They should have used Orphan-Maker and Toad for this - we saw how they were screwed over by the Council, and they serve as better examples of characters who don't get preferential treatment.
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  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rift View Post
    I still don't think it works. Even with their current mindset, Magneto would be highly against comdemning an innocent mutant for helping other mutants in a victimless crime. And if the narrative was an issue, Xavier would have freed him once the narrative changed - which it did the second someone pointed out the flaws in the Make More Mutants rule.

    And I get the idea of some mutants being treated differently. It's a good point for a franchise that routinely neglects characters. But Sabretooth is a bad example; guinea pig or not, he absolutely deserved the Pit and arguably worse. He is willfully evil and knowingly broke the rules for no good reason. You can't really judge Oya, Nekra and Madison too much because we don't know the context, and we know Melter was not as innocent as he claimed. Even if Third Eye's judgment was true, it doesn't gel with the rest of Krakoa.

    Like I get what's being said, and the Council needs a rude awakening. But it feels weird when we barely know what went on behind the scenes. They should have used Orphan-Maker and Toad for this - we saw how they were screwed over by the Council, and they serve as better examples of characters who don't get preferential treatment.
    I do actually agree that Magneto, especially with how Ewing characterizes him, wouldn’t be down for this. That being said Magneto has had wildly different beliefs in this era alone so it’s always hard to tell exactly how he’ll be characterized.

  6. #36
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    I'm also in the camp that I don't buy these characters being sentenced to the Pit for those particular crimes, and its not a characterization I'm comfortable with. But that characterization is kinda the sacrificial lamb needed to make this particular story work, and frankly, we've seen characterizations sacrificed for the sake of far less intelligent or compelling stories or plot points, so while its not ideal, its something I can live with for the purposes of this story.

    Its one of those things where its like, you gotta pick your hill to die on, and I'm not gonna die on the hill that 'this story doesn't work because its OOC for them to sentence these characters this way' when the reality is OOC or not, they've done far worse with less reason in other stories, y'know? *Shrugs*

  7. #37
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    Depending on which version of the council we are on we are talking about a council that could have Apocalypse, Exodus, Mr. Sinister, Sebastian Shaw, Mystique, Emma Frost, Magneto, and Charles Xavier on it. I don’t see a majority throwing people in for rather mild cases as being too far out of the ball park. The only three with actually full functioning moral compasses would have been Nightcrawler, Kate when she’s seperates from Emma, and Storm.

    Remembers Nightcrawler from the start of Way of X

    Two. Two with functioning moral compasses. Assuming we ignore that a functioning moral compass would mean not agreeing to be part of a government consisting entirely of unelected self-selecting immortal oligarchs. Which was supposed to be temporary. Weird how that never changed.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Idk y’all I have real world experience working with youth who got involved in the justice system and I often go, “there’s no way this kids life was almost ruined because of this knowing damn well what people with more power and privilege get away with.” I dont think the Krakoan government has *ever* been portrayed as a system based on equity or accountability. A bunch of the QC are elitists with messed up moral compasses and then there’s a sprinkle of folks with good intentions in there. But that’s the thing, good intentions don’t make up for systems that are inherently inequitable.

    The minute that Orphan Maker was sentenced to the Pit instead of given some counseling, all while Sinister (the man who brutally murdered his teammates) sat on the Council I could have told y’all that there was something wrong with the Krakoan judicial system. Even look at the way Krakoan gov treats it’s youth— ignoring their needs as shown in the pages of New Mutants. I love what Krakoa has done for mutants, but it’s not a society without flaws.

    Nothing about Charles deciding these characters deserve the pit seems surprising to me. This is the same man who treats his mentally ill son like a waste of space and demanded he be denied resurrection. The same man who went against the principle that Krakoa is for all mutants, by denying resurrection to precogs. The same man that approves Beast’s abuse of power on a regular basis.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Idk y’all I have real world experience working with youth who got involved in the justice system and I often go, “there’s no way this kids life was almost ruined because of this knowing damn well what people with more power and privilege get away with.” I dont think the Krakoan government has *ever* been portrayed as a system based on equity or accountability. A bunch of the QC are elitists with messed up moral compasses and then there’s a sprinkle of folks with good intentions in there. But that’s the thing, good intentions don’t make up for systems that are inherently inequitable.

    The minute that Orphan Maker was sentenced to the Pit instead of given some counseling, all while Sinister (the man who brutally murdered his teammates) sat on the Council I could have told y’all that there was something wrong with the Krakoan judicial system. Even look at the way Krakoan treats it’s youth— ignoring their needs as shown in the pages of New Mutants. I love what Krakoa has done for moments, but it’s not a society without flaws.

    Nothing about Charles deciding these characters deserve the pit seems surprising to me. This is the same man who treats his mentally ill son like a waste of space and demanded he be denied resurrection. The same man who went against the principle that Krakoa is for all mutants, by denying resurrection to precogs. The same man that approves Beast’s abuse of power on a regular basis.
    LOL, for what its worth, its mostly the idea that Magneto, specifically, would be down to sentence Third Eye for his 'crime' or Oya and Nekra for killing in defense of Krakoa that I have trouble buying. I just decided to be vague to spare myself the 'its far less believable that Xavier would do this than Magneto, Magneto's the hardened killer' arguments but also since when do I spare myself arguments, I realized two seconds after I hit post.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Idk y’all I have real world experience working with youth who got involved in the justice system and I often go, “there’s no way this kids life was almost ruined because of this knowing damn well what people with more power and privilege get away with.” I dont think the Krakoan government has *ever* been portrayed as a system based on equity or accountability. A bunch of the QC are elitists with messed up moral compasses and then there’s a sprinkle of folks with good intentions in there. But that’s the thing, good intentions don’t make up for systems that are inherently inequitable.

    The minute that Orphan Maker was sentenced to the Pit instead of given some counseling, all while Sinister (the man who brutally murdered his teammates) sat on the Council I could have told y’all that there was something wrong with the Krakoan judicial system. Even look at the way Krakoan gov treats it’s youth— ignoring their needs as shown in the pages of New Mutants. I love what Krakoa has done for mutants, but it’s not a society without flaws.

    Nothing about Charles deciding these characters deserve the pit seems surprising to me. This is the same man who treats his mentally ill son like a waste of space and demanded he be denied resurrection. The same man who went against the principle that Krakoa is for all mutants, by denying resurrection to precogs. The same man that approves Beast’s abuse of power on a regular basis.
    Yes, yes KingdomX, let the dark side flow through you, join me and Habis and King of Hyrbids in eternal damnation. Muahahahahaha.


    But yeah, I essentially agree. The members of the Quiet Council tended be morally on the dark side before they were given unaccountable positions on a ruling oligarch council with powers best described “As whatever the hell we want.” It’s hard enough to hold leaders accountable in real life in republic systems, and in Krakoa the only real way of holding them accountable is revolt or revolution.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    This part. Chuck is more than willing to bring abused and neglected kids into this world if it increases Krakoa’s influence and power.

    I’ll also add that while a lot of these crimes seem small compared to the sentencing, that’s the point. One thing that has been consistent throughout the books is that if you’re a mutant that “matters” then the rules apply differently to you. If you’re an Omega, a member of the QC (looking at you Sinister who gets away with murder because of his DNA samples), sanctioned by the government, or even part of a well known family then the rules get bent for you. The mutants thrown in the Pit after Victor don’t “matter” so the response to their crimes was essentially to erase them from existence.
    To use a classic quote:
    "All animals are equal. But some are more equal than others."

    If this is all only in Creed's head, it would certainly fit why he would subconsciously go for such a scenario, since he has a knack for finding the weaknesses in others. In this case an entire proto-civilization. But if it's actualy happening for real we can't say it didn't had a basis from the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rift View Post
    I still don't think it works. Even with their current mindset, Magneto would be highly against comdemning an innocent mutant for helping other mutants in a victimless crime. And if the narrative was an issue, Xavier would have freed him once the narrative changed - which it did the second someone pointed out the flaws in the Make More Mutants rule.

    And I get the idea of some mutants being treated differently. It's a good point for a franchise that routinely neglects characters. But Sabretooth is a bad example; guinea pig or not, he absolutely deserved the Pit and arguably worse. He is willfully evil and knowingly broke the rules for no good reason. You can't really judge Oya, Nekra and Madison too much because we don't know the context, and we know Melter was not as innocent as he claimed. Even if Third Eye's judgment was true, it doesn't gel with the rest of Krakoa.

    Like I get what's being said, and the Council needs a rude awakening. But it feels weird when we barely know what went on behind the scenes. They should have used Orphan-Maker and Toad for this - we saw how they were screwed over by the Council, and they serve as better examples of characters who don't get preferential treatment.
    It feels a bit like this book was pitched during the original plans for "X of X", where everything was rigged to explode eventualy and this whole situation being one of the bombs being set up, but now that the original architect is gone and they apperently want to have everything last and expand, the book could have been altered into highlighting a problem that needs to be fixed to achieve that.

    Hence a tonal difference to how some characters act now as opposed to earler seems understandable.

  12. #42
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    Since the preview #5 thread is closed and it's too early to post a review.

    Sabretooth #5 is actually quite good, this reads more like a New Mutants plot with Magma, Doug and Warlock present.

    Wish this story was part of the Immortal X-Men or New Mutants book instead of this miniseries which will be forgotten someday. It had elements from both books.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member mugiwara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rift View Post
    I still don't think it works. Even with their current mindset, Magneto would be highly against comdemning an innocent mutant for helping other mutants in a victimless crime.
    I don't know about that. Didn't he let Toad take the blame for Wanda's assassination?
    Bringing back the old, killing the young: that's the Marvel way

  14. #44
    Incredible Member Lady Midnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mugiwara View Post
    I don't know about that. Didn't he let Toad take the blame for Wanda's assassination?
    And left him in the pit all this time...
    My flag is bacon.

  15. #45
    Julian Keller Supremacy Rift's Avatar
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    Xavier csn be an *******, BUT he neglected kids in New Mutants because he was busy and trusted the New Mutants to take care of them. He was a jerk to Legion (I'd argue that's more Spurrier playing it up to extremes for the aake of his story, like this one), but Legion was usually unstable, had a personal grudge against Xavier and could wipe the whole island out. He was a threat that he couldn't control, and feared Legion couldn't control himself on top of it. He's a control freak, but there's a difference between those cases and and Condom Man slinging prophylactics.

    As for Toad, yeah that's a good point. Though that was under extreme circumstances. They lied to protect Wanda and keep the Rezz Protocols a secret. Idr if Toad was in on it either, but probably not lol. He still should have brought Toad back though, which is why I cite him as one of the people actually screwed over.
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