Pan (DBGT) vs. First Form Frieza

[choptop]

I don't remember GT that well, not having really liked it enough to pay attention to some of it, but where are Gero's absolutely trivial planet-busting feats? Where does Pan fight and do OK against a casual planet-buster? First-Form Frieza is that level. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I sure don't recall it, and don't recall ever really thinking that she, as a kid, was that level. I could be wrong.

Gero and 19 were never Frieza level and I don't remember pan ever beating him anyways.

[Anarchist]

Wait now, I am genuinely confused, are we really saying that 19 and 20 are below First Form Frieza? What, could Namek-Era Kid Gohan have solo'd them both?

And yes, Pan did put Gero into a headlock he was unable to escape from in an attempt to get Dr. Myuu to call of Super 17.

So saying that she is below Kid Goku level is a wee bit ridiculous.

[choptop]

Wait now, I am genuinely confused, are we really saying that 19 and 20 are below First Form Frieza? What, could Namek-Era Kid Gohan have solo'd them both?

And yes, Pan did put Gero into a headlock he was unable to escape from in an attempt to get Dr. Myuu to call of Super 17.

So saying that she is below Kid Goku level is a wee bit ridiculous.

You are correct I guess that would put her above kid Goku still putting gero in a headlock isn't really beating him in a full on fight is it?

As for 19 and 20 I honestly don't know they are somewhat between Captain Ginyu and frieza final form I guess actually now that I think about it that may put pan over Frieza? go figure lol

[Cody]

I actually don't see your point. I've never heard of a single feat in GT which approached "we are about to end the universe by punching each other" of SSG Goku. Super relies almost entirely on power scaling past that point, but the universe thing established a baseline for them to grow upon that was never seen in the franchise until then. What establishes people below SS4 could destroy the universe in GT?

Well the anime had more feats on that level, it's just that half of them involved twin GoDs, a powerful fused character, and Zeno.

For me, outside of rumbles I would like to think SSJ4 Gogeta is on the same level as the Blue duo, mostly based off of some feats shown from Z filler and the movies(which are all canon to GT, and made the characters a crap ton more powerful than their original manga counterparts), and to go from there when combined with the presentation of the characters(GT Gokus base being presented as comparable to his SSJ3 state back during the Z Buu saga).

The problem is that we still need to use some very generous scaling that just wouldn't be applicable for Rumbles.

Now, we do have a King Vegeta(Z)casually busting a handful of planets while laughing, and a Vegeta(who surpassed his dad as a kid) casually busting a planet and it's moon by pointing at it, and Kid Buu destroying galaxies the same way Broly did to the one(over a long period of time, which would still be radically above solar system busting), and Buuhan nearly destroying the universe by using a magical ability that would cause some alternate universes to collapse ontop of it(or something). So we do have some leeway here. But it is still iffy by Rumbles standards.

[Nik Hasta]

Couple of points on this;

Now, we do have a King Vegeta(Z)casually busting a handful of planets while laughing,

I would argue a planet with two moons on this rather than "a handful of planets," assuming you mean this clip:



As the explosions look to be happening in the foreground of the larger explosion of the planet that goes up first, my reading is that these are smaller celestial bodies.

and a Vegeta(who surpassed his dad as a kid) casually busting a planet and it's moon by pointing at it, and Kid Buu destroying galaxies the same way Broly did to the one(over a long period of time, which would still be radically above solar system busting), and Buuhan nearly destroying the universe by using a magical ability that would cause some alternate universes to collapse ontop of it(or something). So we do have some leeway here. But it is still iffy by Rumbles standards.

You've kind of fallen into the sequencing issue that Morgan was outlining earlier in this thread. Scaling can only get you so far.

Let's take Cell's claim of destroying the solar system at face value. There are 200 sextillion stars in the universe. 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. That is how many times stronger you'd need to be than Cell to threaten the universe. (More, really, as most of the universe is actually empty space between stars.) Let's say that every major power jump increases their power 10 fold. When the character begins totally no selling their opponent. You probably only get one or two of those jumps through the rest of Z. Buu didn't really escalate power levels so much as combine Cell level power with immortality, regeneration, and incredible versatility.

As he notes, it kind of doesn't really matter how early you hit planet busting, or even star/solar system busting for that matter, in DBZ. To be able to effect a galaxy, much less the universe itself, is such a gross jump in power it's like... dozens of orders of magnitude greater.

Let's say that Perfect Cell is like... I don't know... a million times stronger than King Vegeta? Cool, based on that scaling he can now just about blow up a single Sun-sized star.

I'll also add that Buuhan apparently blowing up some clouds and Vegeto going "Oh no, the universe," is extremely hard to quantify as to what is actually happening and how it plays into raw power.

Super, for all it having kind of inconsistent feats between various members of the cast, does at least have quantifiable and more obvious feats that play in the universal ballpark.

[Sharpandpointies]

Edited out, no longer of import.

[Nik Hasta]

You might have this part a little off, Nik, at least wrt affecting a galaxy. ^_^

Duly edited, fingers working faster than brain.

[Sharpandpointies]

Duly edited, fingers working faster than brain.

Figured. Happens to me all of the time. ^_^

[Captain Morgan]

Space is freaking big. There's a lot of it. To get a sense of the scale, try listening to Monty Python's Galaxy song. Planet busting is just so insignificant on the scale of the universe that you'd never be able to get there just by linier power increases.

[Sharpandpointies]

Space is freaking big.

citation needed

[Captain Morgan]

citation needed

https://youtu.be/buqtdpuZxvk

[Cody]

Couple of points on this;



I would argue a planet with two moons on this rather than "a handful of planets," assuming you mean this clip:



As the explosions look to be happening in the foreground of the larger explosion of the planet that goes up first, my reading is that these are smaller celestial bodies.



You've kind of fallen into the sequencing issue that Morgan was outlining earlier in this thread. Scaling can only get you so far.



As he notes, it kind of doesn't really matter how early you hit planet busting, or even star/solar system busting for that matter, in DBZ. To be able to effect a galaxy, much less the universe itself, is such a gross jump in power it's like... dozens of orders of magnitude greater.

Let's say that Perfect Cell is like... I don't know... a million times stronger than King Vegeta? Cool, based on that scaling he can now just about blow up a single Sun-sized star.

I'll also add that Buuhan apparently blowing up some clouds and Vegeto going "Oh no, the universe," is extremely hard to quantify as to what is actually happening and how it plays into raw power.

Super, for all it having kind of inconsistent feats between various members of the cast, does at least have quantifiable and more obvious feats that play in the universal ballpark.

Oh I get all this(though I misremembered on King Vegetas feat there). That's why I said outside of rumbles you might be able to get ssj4 gogeta somewhere in the SSBish ballpark provided you use some extremely generous scaling, and take a lot of claims and statements at face value.

Just good luck getting feats to back any of it up, let alone using it in a "serious"(as it can be about fiction) convo on here .

But I always appreciate you going the extra mile and getting your hands dirty for us so we don't have to Nikster.

[Sharpandpointies]

That'll do. Maaaan, brings back memories.

And even that song doesn't really do justice to the universe, though it tries. ^_^

[Captain Morgan]

Oh I get all this(though I misremembered on King Vegetas feat there). That's why I said outside of rumbles you might be able to get ssj4 gogeta somewhere in the SSBish ballpark provided you use some extremely generous scaling, and take a lot of claims and statements at face value.

Just good luck getting feats to back any of it up, let alone using it in a "serious"(as it can be about fiction) convo on here .

But I always appreciate you going the extra mile and getting your hands dirty for us so we don't have to Nikster.

I mean there's generous scaling and then there's ludicrous scaling. Let's assume Broly is a galaxy buster. There's 100 billion galaxies in the universe.

That is 100,000,000,000. A generous assumption is that every "I'm so much more powerful I can treat you like garbage" jump is 10 times a powerful. Broly happens just before the Cell Games, right? We get two of those jumps in the Cell Games: Cell and Goku start comparable, then Gohan goes SSJ2 and leaps over them, then Cell zenkais and jumps past Gohan, but Gohan digs deep to match him.

And then maybe one more in the Buu saga-- Goku and Vegeta start at about where Gohan peaked, and Goku exceeds that with SSJ3 and various people jump around based on fusing and absorbing others, but the fights are largely driven by Buu's esoteric abilities rather than raw power.

So that's 3, maybe 4 orders of magnitude above Galaxy busting. You'd need at least 8 more of those jumps to approach where Super begins. But Super doesn't stay at Universe Busting. Goku has 3 more powered up forms he debuts past universe busting.

Unless GT just packs way more power jumps in than any other part of the franchise, I don't see how it can possibly scale all the way up to Super.

[Sharpandpointies]

I mean there's generous scaling and then there's ludicrous scaling. Let's assume Broly is a galaxy buster. There's 100 billion galaxies in the universe.

That is 100,000,000,000.

I know you know this, but it's worse than that (and needs to be said), because...there's a whole lot more empty space between the galaxies than there are galaxies themselves. ^_^