Pan (DBGT) vs. First Form Frieza

[Cody]

I mean there's generous scaling and then there's ludicrous scaling. Let's assume Broly is a galaxy buster. There's 100 billion galaxies in the universe.

That is 100,000,000,000. A generous assumption is that every "I'm so much more powerful I can treat you like garbage" jump is 10 times a powerful. Broly happens just before the Cell Games, right? We get two of those jumps in the Cell Games: Cell and Goku start comparable, then Gohan goes SSJ2 and leaps over them, then Cell zenkais and jumps past Gohan, but Gohan digs deep to match him.

And then maybe one more in the Buu saga-- Goku and Vegeta start at about where Gohan peaked, and Goku exceeds that with SSJ3 and various people jump around based on fusing and absorbing others, but the fights are largely driven by Buu's esoteric abilities rather than raw power.

So that's 3, maybe 4 orders of magnitude above Galaxy busting. You'd need at least 8 more of those jumps to approach where Super begins. But Super doesn't stay at Universe Busting. Goku has 3 more powered up forms he debuts past universe busting.

Unless GT just packs way more power jumps in than any other part of the franchise, I don't see how it can possibly scale all the way up to Super.

Well, (and I can't stress this enough) I'm not arguing anything from a rumbles standpoint here, none of this works here.

So that's 3, maybe 4 orders of magnitude above Galaxy busting. You'd need at least 8 more of those jumps to approach where Super begins.

That is actually what is happening for any fused character really. GT Goku and Vegeta in their base states are supposedly on Par with SSJ3 Goku(Z anime, so that includes feats from movies and filler). You then have 4 SSJ multipliers ontop of that, with the first multiplying the users power by 50, the second and third forms combined might multiply that nearly 10 fold(no official source states what the multipliers are for those 2 transformations, just the daizenshuu and one comment from either Zamasu or Gowasu from Super regarding SSJ2 multiplying the users power "by the tens") and a fourth that multiplies that 10 fold.

Then you got a fusion that combines their power and multiplies it by orders of magnitude(also "by the tenS" according to Vados)just for the fusions base state alone. Then you have those 4 multipliers on top of even that. So that is quite the huge boost when all put together. So we are close to your required magnitudes that you estimated.

Though that is simply approaching it, so I see your point.

Not that any of this is(nor should it be) applicable for Rumbles.

[Jcogginsa]

As far as scaling the Super and GT characters, would the Dragonball Heroes animated shorts be eligible to use as evidence?

[BitVyper]

Notably, just being some ridiculously high multiple stronger than whoever isn't enough to match what we'd typically look at as whatever-level-of-interstellar-busting feat either. Like a zillion times stronger blast than what someone uses to bust a planet, even with an arbitrarily high multiplier, is still limited by the speed of light in absence of feats to suggest otherwise. Like at the start of the (old) Broly movie, we see Broly's galaxy busting feat where that galaxy just flat out evaporates before our eyes. That's still well in excess of anything scaled up from planet busting just in terms of power. Though I don't know how you'd even go about quantifying that in terms of immediate impact force. I guess it's possible they could be the same and that something different is going on with Broly's attack, but given various things we know, I doubt it. With power scaling alone, the best you can say is that it will destroy whatever area eventually. With feats, you can say it will destroy that *right now*

[choptop]

Ya that's why putting numbers behind anything DB related doesn't really work and gets silly after awhile.

[choptop]

As far as scaling the Super and GT characters, would the Dragonball Heroes animated shorts be eligible to use as evidence?

I guess for those version's.

[Lukmendes]

The potentially universe destroying shockwaves things was also in the manga, wasn't anime only.

Huh, right, just checked it out and that's mentioned, though, weirdly enough that point is quickly dropped.

GT gets the same pass. No one is arguing that GT characters are weaker than Z characters. But there's a lot of room between "stronger than Z characters" and "On par with Super characters." Any Dragonball series relies primarily on power scaling. But if that is all you went on, you'd almost never catch up to SSG.

Let's take Cell's claim of destroying the solar system at face value. There are 200 sextillion stars in the universe. 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. That is how many times stronger you'd need to be than Cell to threaten the universe. (More, really, as most of the universe is actually empty space between stars.) Let's say that every major power jump increases their power 10 fold. When the character begins totally no selling their opponent. You probably only get one or two of those jumps through the rest of Z. Buu didn't really escalate power levels so much as combine Cell level power with immortality, regeneration, and incredible versatility.

So you'd need more 20 giant power jumps to occur in GT before you could even approach the point Super begins at. I watched little GT but given the series begins with Goku being depowered, I highly doubt that happens. Super just established too big a jump that shattered all the power scaling that came before it.

Real life logic just doesn't work in DB lol.

These same characters can be strong enough to destroy planets, yet weak enough to struggle to lift fucking 40 tons.

I don't remember GT that well, not having really liked it enough to pay attention to some of it, but where are Gero's absolutely trivial planet-busting feats? Where does Pan fight and do OK against a casual planet-buster? First-Form Frieza is that level. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I sure don't recall it, and don't recall ever really thinking that she, as a kid, was that level. I could be wrong.

Gero barely fights in the manga, we just know that he's stronger than First Form Freeza because Vegeta after having his energy absorved is said he couldn't defeat Gero, Piccolo mentions that his training made him too strong and that's why Gero isn't a threat, and it's never talked like either Goku or Vegeta could defeat him or 19 without going SS.

Freeza was strong, but by the time of android saga his first form's power is whatever for the higher tier characters.

Also, planet destroying feats are nothing, Roshi back in vanilla DB destroys the moon despite how weak he is, and Vegeta in saiyan saga says he can destroy Earth with his 18k power level, Pan isn't shown doing stuff like that, but neither did any of the androids, even the ones obviously stronger than Freeza, but considering she held Gero and he could do absolutely nothing to break her grip (And is dumb enough to forget he can absorb ki), there's no way Pan is weaker than saiyan saga characters, and she's definitely above first form Freeza.

You are correct I guess that would put her above kid Goku still putting gero in a headlock isn't really beating him in a full on fight is it?

As for 19 and 20 I honestly don't know they are somewhat between Captain Ginyu and frieza final form I guess actually now that I think about it that may put pan over Frieza? go figure lol

The characters felt like there was a need to go SS1 against 19 and Gero and it's never suggested they're so weak that they don't need SS1 to win, it's vague if they surpass Freeza in power, but there's absolutely no way they're as weak as first form Freeza, much less Ginyu lol.

As far as scaling the Super and GT characters, would the Dragonball Heroes animated shorts be eligible to use as evidence?

The power levels in those aren't consistent, specially the promotional anime.

We have the very silly situation of Vegetto Blue needing to combine SSB with Kaioken to keep up with Cumber who's in base form, and then, in the same episode, the logically far weaker SS Goku manages to keep holding Golden Oozaru Cumber who was stomping him, so, then pushes him away with Blue Kaioken, so, Blue Goku > Vegetto Blue, somehow lol.

In the games themselves, they only say Goku Blue is a bit stronger than Xeno SS4 Goku, as Blue Goku actually won the fight, while the manga and anime dodged the question of who wins (Althought the anime made it look like SS4 was stronger by having SS4 Vegetto have a better fight than Vegetto Blue).

[BitVyper]

These same characters can be strong enough to destroy planets, yet weak enough to struggle to lift fucking 40 tons.

Toriyama is pretty consistent, honestly. That one's an anime feat that doesn't make any sense and falls into PIS by board rules anyway, because Goku has consistent feats of being way stronger than that physically

[Lukmendes]

Toriyama is pretty consistent, honestly. That one's an anime feat that doesn't make any sense and falls into PIS by board rules anyway, because Goku has consistent feats of being way stronger than that physically

The "Goku struggles to lift 40 tons" is from Toriyama.







https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...49/unknown.png

(Dragon Ball#428)

It's not even the only time something like that was done too, Goku in saiyan saga struggled to walk in a planet with 10x Earth's gravity despite being strong enough to tank bullets since he was a kid, and he became far stronger since then, he's strong enough to push a boulder as a kid but then his adult self can't really lift 40 tons in base form.

There's also a funny case with Dr. Briefs, he talks like it's completely absurd for Vegeta to be able to train in 300x Earth's gravity, despite Vegeta showing up as strong enough to destroy planets and he's far stronger now although, at the very least the last one you can excuse as Briefs not knowing just how strong the characters are... Which's undermined by Vegeta looking tired in the single panel we see him training, so Briefs had a point, but regardless, it's talked like being able to walk around when your own body is 18 tons is absurd:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...10/unknown.png

(DB#336)

So, basically, DB works on rule of cool, it's not exactly consistent, Toei makes the consistency worse, but Toriyama himself has his own consistency issues, at the very least, the power levels work accurately under Toriyama, something you can't say about Toei a lot of the times.

[Cody]

The "Goku struggles to lift 40 tons" is from Toriyama.







https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...49/unknown.png

(Dragon Ball#428)

It's not even the only time something like that was done too, Goku in saiyan saga struggled to walk in a planet with 10x Earth's gravity despite being strong enough to tank bullets since he was a kid, and he became far stronger since then, he's strong enough to push a boulder as a kid but then his adult self can't really lift 40 tons in base form.

There's also a funny case with Dr. Briefs, he talks like it's completely absurd for Vegeta to be able to train in 300x Earth's gravity, despite Vegeta showing up as strong enough to destroy planets and he's far stronger now although, at the very least the last one you can excuse as Briefs not knowing just how strong the characters are... Which's undermined by Vegeta looking tired in the single panel we see him training, so Briefs had a point, but regardless, it's talked like being able to walk around when your own body is 18 tons is absurd:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...10/unknown.png

(DB#336)

So, basically, DB works on rule of cool, it's not exactly consistent, Toei makes the consistency worse, but Toriyama himself has his own consistency issues, at the very least, the power levels work accurately under Toriyama, something you can't say about Toei a lot of the times.

The problem here is that you can count the inconsistent feats such as all that on one hand and still have fingers left over. You more or less just described half of the inconsistent feats in the series.

In DBS, him and Vegeta are wearing suits so heavy they sink into the ground when not worn while before even meeting Beerus Goku was casually lifting large weights bigger than him on King Kais planet.

Dragonball is actually highly consistent when compared to say; comic characters with multiple writers. The notion that it isn't based on a couple instances isn't quite accurate.

As far as Vegetas gravity training is concerned; it wasn't the gravity itself that was the problem, as he could move around fine. It was the hours of non-stop training combined with the gravity that gave him trouble. And keep in mind that increasing the gravity is more than just an increase in overall body weight; everything is made heavier, from the bones, muscle, fat, organs, everything. It is essentially a full body work-out where even your fingers are made heavier.

https://www.livescience.com/33294-wh...0as%20redwoods.

^the fact that thick trees would fall apart is rather telling. Especially when that is the scenario if gravity simply doubled.

[Dark Soul # 7]

As far as scaling the Super and GT characters, would the Dragonball Heroes animated shorts be eligible to use as evidence?

Probably not. Heroes is basically a crossover, and probably fairly inconsistent on its own I'd bet. It mostly runs on what looks cool rather than Rumbles style logic.

[BitVyper]

The "Goku struggles to lift 40 tons" is from Toriyama.

Oh so it is. I somehow missed that in the comics. Honestly strange because like I said, Toriyama is pretty good about keeping track of the power relationships, but I can give him this.

It's still wildly inconsistent with things Goku was doing when he was eleven.

[The Drunkard Kid]

To be fair with the 40 tons feat, there are a couple of asterisks involved, like how we don't even know what the gravity of the planet they were on is, or how long he had been training before upping his weights.

As for the 10x/300x gravity, a realistic point would be that increasing gravity would have a lot of secondary effects outside of just making you heavier, and that their bodies weren't used to things like the the oxygen in their lungs and fluids in their eyes being ten times heavier, but overall I tend to lean towards Toriyama just not really being good with numbers (or maybe DB-verse using different definitions for their units of measurement), considering things like Kuririn being shocked that End of Dragonball Goku could even walk while wearing 40 lbs shoes, which is something that even my out of shape self can do with moderate effort.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Toriyama has himself said that he's pretty bad with numbers. So while he might be good at keeping the general power dynamics consistent, he's not great with giving them numerical values.

[BitVyper]

To be fair with the 40 tons feat, there are a couple of asterisks involved, like how we don't even know what the gravity of the planet they were on is, or how long he had been training before upping his weights.

As for the 10x/300x gravity, a realistic point would be that increasing gravity would have a lot of secondary effects outside of just making you heavier, and that their bodies weren't used to things like the the oxygen in their lungs and fluids in their eyes being ten times heavier, but overall I tend to lean towards Toriyama just not really being good with numbers (or maybe DB-verse using different definitions for their units of measurement), considering things like Kuririn being shocked that End of Dragonball Goku could even walk while wearing 40 lbs shoes, which is something that even my out of shake self can do with moderate effort.

Yeah I mean to be clear here, comparatively infinitesimal changes in gravity will slowly kill a person

[Jcogginsa]

Could also be that Toriyama never intended the characters to be physically strong enough to punch apart planets