Is It Possible Peter Doesn't Love MJ As Deeply As He Loved Gwen?

[Kevinroc]

What he said regarding MJ was in Son Of M though.

And there's the fact Wanda gave Peter a family with Gwen, not MJ.

When Kevin Smith brought Oliver Queen back to life there was a part of that story where Ollie takes a trip to Heaven. While there Ollie talks to Barry Allen (who was dead at the time). The Flash comics of that era depicted Barry as being one with the Speed Force. Which comic carries more weight about where Barry was? Green Arrow or Flash?

I could use a Marvel example if you want. In a Hercules comic, Herc and his buddy Amadeus Cho visit a land of the dead, which is depicted as a casino, and see Janet van Dyne playing the slots hoping to come back (Jan was believed to have died following Secret Invasion). However in the Avengers comics it was later revealed that Jan did not die in Secret Invasion, she just became trapped in the Microverse.

House of M depicted a bald Peter Parker who sabotaged his own life and depicted him as wanting to be the Green Goblin. What it, and its follow-up, says regarding Spider-Man means nothing. No Spider-Man comic depicted the events to line up with what House of M said. And considering these days Marvel depicts "Gwen Stacy" as a hero, the idea of her being the great lost love of Peter Parker is an idea of a bygone era.

[phonogram12]

Honestly? I don't even think he knows. Did he genuinely love her with all of his heart? Absolutely yes. But it was also a first love. The kind of love that lasts forever is more than just about racing down the street together on a motorcycle, taking cute photo booth pictures, and sharing a sharing a shake at the local greasy spoon. It's about still making up after a particularly terrible fight, learning and actually wanting to de-escalate the next one, doing your taxes together, being understanding and waiting patiently outside the bathroom door while your partner has the stomach flu...a lot of decidedly unsexy stuff. He's had that with MJ.

I think the thing that will always tug at his heart with Gwen is that he never got to find out if they could have had that kind of forever love. The kind of love that they had is kind of crystalized in time because that's just the way it turned out for the two of them.

I don't think he loves MJ any less because of it, but I do think it's the not knowing that kills him.

[Matt Rat]

Peter knows Gwen wasn't right for him and vice versa. He's admitted as much in books like Web of Romance, and Gwen in Clone Conspiracy said she always reckoned she'd lose him to MJ (and that's a SLOTT penned issue)

[Frontier]

I love Felicia more than Gwen too but, as a romantic asexual, I feel obligated to point out that physical intimacy doesn't always indicate the strength of someone's feelings either.

I meant emotional intimacy too because Peter was able to share more of his life with Felicia than he was with Gwen, even if it was mostly just Spider-Man.

[phonogram12]

It’s a comic. It depends on the writer.

Perfect answer.

[Lukmendes]

When Kevin Smith brought Oliver Queen back to life there was a part of that story where Ollie takes a trip to Heaven. While there Ollie talks to Barry Allen (who was dead at the time). The Flash comics of that era depicted Barry as being one with the Speed Force. Which comic carries more weight about where Barry was? Green Arrow or Flash?

I could use a Marvel example if you want. In a Hercules comic, Herc and his buddy Amadeus Cho visit a land of the dead, which is depicted as a casino, and see Janet van Dyne playing the slots hoping to come back (Jan was believed to have died following Secret Invasion). However in the Avengers comics it was later revealed that Jan did not die in Secret Invasion, she just became trapped in the Microverse.

I remember hearing that a She-Hulk story showed Bucky and Norman in the afterlife, way before it was retconned they're both alive.

Also after Cap "died" in Civil War, he showed up Thor#11 vol 3 (That was JMS' run), "confirming" he was dead, then his return said he never died in Civil War to begin with.

Honestly? I don't even think he knows. Did he genuinely love her with all of his heart? Absolutely yes. But it was also a first love. The kind of love that lasts forever is more than just about racing down the street together on a motorcycle, taking cute photo booth pictures, and sharing a sharing a shake at the local greasy spoon.

His first love was Betty, not Gwen.

Peter knows Gwen wasn't right for him and vice versa. He's admitted as much in books like Web of Romance, and Gwen in Clone Conspiracy said she always reckoned she'd lose him to MJ (and that's a SLOTT penned issue)

Was that in ASM#23 vol 4? 'Cause Gage was a co-writer in it.

[Kevinroc]

I remember hearing that a She-Hulk story showed Bucky and Norman in the afterlife, way before it was retconned they're both alive.

Also after Cap "died" in Civil War, he showed up Thor#11 vol 3 (That was JMS' run), "confirming" he was dead, then his return said he never died in Civil War to begin with.

There are more examples of such things. The point is that, particularly with titles outside of the franchise, such statements can't be taken as absolutes. So in this case, House of M and Son of M (by the way, Quicksilver isn't even Magneto's son anymore, lol), can't be taken as "evidence" of anything.

If someone is trying to use House of M as "proof" that Peter loved Gwen more than MJ, that isn't proof of anything.

[Huntsman Spider]

I remember hearing that a She-Hulk story showed Bucky and Norman in the afterlife, way before it was retconned they're both alive.

Also after Cap "died" in Civil War, he showed up Thor#11 vol 3 (That was JMS' run), "confirming" he was dead, then his return said he never died in Civil War to begin with.



His first love was Betty, not Gwen.



Was that in ASM#23 vol 4? 'Cause Gage was a co-writer in it.

Yeah, it was, but then Gage was cowriting with Slott a lot of the time by that point. As for the argument that Peter didn't or doesn't love Mary Jane as much or as deeply as he did Gwen, I'd say Peter's love for MJ ultimately ran deeper, because their relationship (and marriage) was tested and tested quite brutally on multiple occasions --- beyond the big flashpoints, there were just the common stressors of life married to a superhero --- and still stood strong, to the point the crux of the literal Faustian bargain that happened in One More Day was that marriage. With Gwen, it's mostly mourning that what she and Peter had was cut short before it could develop into anything like what he had with Mary Jane, and it's also the eternal pain of "what if?" as well as his self-flagellation complex, since he was at least partly responsible for her death. Barring his failed attempt to save her, it could be argued that letting Norman go free all those times because he had "no memory" of being the Green Goblin put everyone Peter knew and cared about in the Goblin's line of fire should Norman ever come to remember who he really was.

[Frontier]

His first love was Betty, not Gwen.

Betty was his first girlfriend/love interest but I don't think he was in love with her, that was something that was significant to Gwen.

[Lunala]

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You're on the losing side of history, old man, give it up. /j

I mentioned "mature" + "accepting" as in they've all gotta consent and consent gotta be freely given or it's not consent so obviously I agree there. You read like someone opposed to poly relations in general. Fine for anyone who doesn't like it but idk how productive this conversation is gonna be. MJ was going after Peter when she was dating Harry, would MJ really have a problem if she was also dating and loved whoever he was dating? Maybe she would be easier to convince than Peter.

Out of context panels are fun and I couldn't resist the call, sorry. I'll behave now.

I mention a 32% because that's the number of persons who admit to interest outside monogamy. I'm not saying he thinks about it, but subconsciously it might be something that affects him. If he loved a woman, and MJ(who has been into women in a couple universes) was interested too(and whoever is filling the blank here), maybe it could work. It would lose ASM too many readers but I don't think the decision as out of character for the characters to choose it as you suggest. It would take more set up than most authors have to make the plot believable and I doubt the Spider office would take that risk. I don't want to argue with this too much since I'm not a poly spider shipper and I'm completely against resurrecting Gwen for poly plot.

I mentioned in my first post that Peter would not stop dating MJ if Gwen returned and would not persue her. I'm equally convinced that MJ would be rebuffed if he was dating Gwen. He's just that type of person. This doesn't mean that emotionally he can't love two people, that his love is a competition, or that he would be totally against it if both ladies were into him and themselves. He's just a guy with a western perspective on love and it's good that he can respect marriage when he's not poorly written.

...The NedBetty relationship was so badly handled by authors, most recently by Spencer.

I guess a better comparison would be that, According to the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy, “35% of women and 45% of men admit to having had an emotional affair before." but obviously that wouldn't quite apply to them.

Barring a ridiculously stupid choice to give this question a supernatural bent, you can’t cheat on, or with, the dead. The memory of a lost loved one may become an obstacle for a living couple but that’s not a given. Still loving someone you lost doesn’t mean you can’t fully love someone else too and Peter obviously adores MJ just as much as Gwen despite whatever anyone might say. It’s not *infidelity* even if it is inconvenient sometimes since MJ knew what she was getting into when she dated him. Ultimately, I think it comes down to the perspective of the protagonist and his main love interest. Since his dearly departed love isn't around any more, it's only cheating if Peter and MJ believe he's cheating. Unless it's a specific scenario like... *spins the wheel of random circumstances* the dead girlfriend is a ghost actively haunting their house now and Peter dates both of them, then its not cheating.

Anyway, I'm never going to say this better than Tinkerspider (who I assume wants the deviant getting sidetracked with emotional infidelity and poly relations to stop buzzing around him). Love shouldn't be a contest.

I'm not keen on criticizing CBR too much. It's been here since 1996 and my momma always taught me to respect my elders. /j

[Frontier]

Honestly I can't see Peter as he is now going back to Gwen...genuinely, or at least to a point where he's satisfied. I think on some level he's already moved on emotionally, from her at least. Maybe not her death.

[Lukmendes]

Betty was his first girlfriend/love interest but I don't think he was in love with her, that was something that was significant to Gwen.

I mean, "first love" doesn't mean "first soul mate" or whatever, Betty is his first love to the point he wanted to marry her, even if therelationship mostly sucked, while Gwen is the first one he was deeply in love, Betty is still his first love.

I mentioned "mature" + "accepting" as in they've all gotta consent and consent gotta be freely given or it's not consent so obviously I agree there. You read like someone opposed to poly relations in general. Fine for anyone who doesn't like it but idk how productive this conversation is gonna be.

I'm opposed to Spidey getting into those because it's out of character for him and his love interests in general, if it was in-character for them to do so then I wouldn't mind it.

I'm hardly opposed to poly shit if people want to get into those, whether or not they do so is none of my business.

MJ was going after Peter when she was dating Harry, would MJ really have a problem if she was also dating and loved whoever he was dating? Maybe she would be easier to convince than Peter.

She generally shows no interest in ayone else besides Spidey, so yeah, she wouldn't be easier to convince.

I mention a 32% because that's the number of persons who admit to interest outside monogamy. I'm not saying he thinks about it, but subconsciously it might be something that affects him. If he loved a woman, and MJ(who has been into women in a couple universes) was interested too(and whoever is filling the blank here), maybe it could work. It would lose ASM too many readers but I don't think the decision as out of character for the characters to choose it as you suggest.

Spidey mostly shows no interest in being with another woman if he's already with one, and his love interests show no interest in sharing, you have to ignore about every story where the characters are in relationships to try to say "Spidey could be into poly relationships", and I don't see why that's hard to get, the 32% aren't relevant since Spidey hasn't done anything to show he's part of this group.

It would take more set up than most authors have to make the plot believable and I doubt the Spider office would take that risk. I don't want to argue with this too much since I'm not a poly spider shipper and I'm completely against resurrecting Gwen for poly plot.

I mentioned in my first post that Peter would not stop dating MJ if Gwen returned and would not persue her. I'm equally convinced that MJ would be rebuffed if he was dating Gwen. He's just that type of person. That doesn't mean that emotionally he can't love two people,that his love is a competition, or that he would be totally against it if both ladies were into him and themselves. He's just a guy with a western perspective on love and it's good that he can respect marriage when he's not written badly.

They might as well make a new universe where Spidey gets into a poly relationship for it to make sense, in 616 it wouldn't work at all without being a mischaracterization of everyone involved, bad enough that Krakoa-shit did this with the likes of Cyke and Jean too...

I guess a better comparison would be that, According to the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy, “35% of women and 45% of men admit to having had an emotional affair before." but obviously that wouldn't quite apply to them.

Barring a ridiculously stupid choice to give this question a supernatural bent, you can’t cheat on, or with, the dead. The memory of a lost loved one may become an obstacle for a living couple but that’s not a given. Still loving someone you lost doesn’t mean you can’t fully love someone else too and Peter obviously adores MJ just as much as Gwen despite whatever anyone might say. It’s not *infidelity* even if it is inconvenient sometimes since MJ knew what she was getting into when she dated him. Ultimately, I think it comes down to the perspective of the protagonist and his main love interest. Since his dearly departed love isn't around any more, it's only cheating if Peter and MJ believe he's cheating. Unless it's a specific scenario like.. idk the dead girlfriend is a ghost actively haunting their house now and Peter dates both of them, then its not cheating.

You defend this point a lot for someone who claims to not ship Spidey in a poly relationship lol.

Anyway, I'm never going to say this better than Tinkerspider (who would probably like the weird man getting sidetracked with emotional infidelity and poly relations to stop buzzing around him). Love shouldn't be a contest.

Love is a contest, it is by default a selfish emotion, while it can be used to not be selfish, it's not all cute and nice.

[Lunala]

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Anything is possible when your characterization is strangled by a mystery box plot. /j

I won't say it's impossible for that ship to get back together but PeterGwen couldn't pick up where they left off. The writing would be fighting the entire fanbase(including me ^^) so it would need to be well-done and incredibly convincing. The author would need to be damn good at their job, address character flaws and what made the ship fail, etc. I doubt JMD could do it and Wells is out of the question.

[WebLurker]

In regards to the OP, I don't really see the dilemma; many people will remarry or eventually form another relationship after being widowed, losing their partner, breaking up, or whatever, and the subsequent one isn't invalidated by the former.

Huh, wonder what cartoon did that.

It was a comic book issue. Double-checked and it was a CBR article (here). No real explanation what the writers had in mind with the idea.

[Ursalink]

The topic of this thread was talked in "Universe X". The thing here is not that Peter loved Gwen more than he loved MJ, it's because Peter naver let his blame of Gwen dying because of him.