The Gray Jedi: Canon, non-Canon, & What to do with the concept going forward?

[Ascended]

I don't know when I first discovered the concept of the gray Jedi, but they definitely weren't part of the original films in any real way. Not that I recall at least, and I've seen very little of them in any of the "extra" material (novels, comics, etc) I've come across; I mostly know them as an idea seen online, not something that's ever been explored in-depth within the fiction itself. Still, I've always been intrigued by the idea of Force users who walk in both the light and dark sides, without becoming corrupted by either.

So what are some of the good Gray Jedi tales, in new canon (if any?), old canon, and beyond? What's the appeal behind them for you? Is there (was there?) any kind of organization that actually got fleshed out properly, a code or creed they followed, and if so what made them different from the regular Jedi or Sith, or any of the other groups of Force users like the Dathomiri Witches, Knights of Ren, or whoever else? What made them stand out to you?

And do you think the idea should be applied in a post-sequels (or even post-Empire) galaxy? If so, how? If not, why?

Also, if they're not part of the Jedi Order, why are they called Jedi at all? If they are (were) part of the Order, then how did that square with the Jedi code, that treats the dark side like heroine and something to avoid at all costs?

[Timothy Hunter]

I think the concept of a Gray Jedi makes the Force less interesting. The Force is supposed to be in a never-ending struggle between the dark and the light side. Having a Force user become capable of finding a perfect equilibrium between the two seems like a complete cop out of that concept.

Also I'm a little confused on how this idea got started. Did the concept of a Grey Jedi begin in fan circles or do they actually appear in Legends or Canon?

[Marvel Wars]

In the Star Wars Republic comics there was an issue centered around a group of Grey Jedi.

[Tendrin]

I dislike 'grey jedi' because it's generally rooted in a misunderstanding of the force and its dark side and the 'balance' thereof. Like way too often I think it just winds up 'Jedi Edgelord' stuff.

[ZeroBG82]

The entire concept is nonsense that flies in the face of everything the universe has ever built, going all the way back to at least ESB. It needs to die and be forgotten.

Anakin is basically a grey Jedi. He's a cautionary tale for a reason.

[ChrisIII]

I think it's partially adopted in the New Jedi Order and a few of it's follow-up novels. There's even a novel cover with Luke using force lightning. However, it's pretty much dropped in Legacy of the Force which decides to go back to the old Jedi Vs. Sith/Galactic Civil War storyline.

[godisawesome]

I despise the idea of “Grey” Jedi as in “mixing Light and Dark,” partially because of how some fans clearly want more amoral protagonists with Force Powers without accepting them as perfectly good Antagonists.

But I love the idea of Jedi mislabeled as “Grey” because their unorthodox and have beliefs or behaviors that seem to fly in the face of dogma…

…or at least are more open and honest about the little ways even “orthodox” Jedi betray some of the spirit or letter of the “law” and maybe using some fo the friction caused by that for some philosophical debate.

Like, Qui-Gon was clearly a father figure to Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan was clearly attached to him, but Obi-Wan emotional maturity meant that it didn’t get expressed in a dark side way and they could kind of “hide” that by pretending he wasn’t attached. And Kanan clearly would have been able to be a good father and a Jedi like he was already a good de-facto “husband” to , and they kind of skipped past dealing with that by killing him. And even Mace Windu was heavily suggested to have become a powerful Jedi more by controlling emotions he still very much felt rather than by controlling them.

We all KNOW that writers are going to flex and even break the spirits of the Jedi code for the sake of drama - largely because Lucas himself did it and endorsed it at times.

I say we should have some characters discuss that, and alongside these “dogmatically grey” Jedi, have their complementary examples - “Grey Jedi” who are just “Dark Jedi” in waiting… and some “Totally Orthodox and Fine Jedi” who are *also* Dark Jedi in waiting.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

So far the Bendu from Rebels is the only gray force user I've experienced. I think he's the best way to handle the gray side of the force. Rather than gray jedi or sith, having gray force users represent neutrality is the best way to go.

Although Asajj Ventress's portrayal in the novel Dark Disciples is probably the closest example of "a Gray Sith" I've read about.

In Star Wars Legacy, there is a third faction called the Imperial Knights. They'd be force users more allied with the imperial power structure than the jedi or sith. But they feel like another group of light side users than necessarily gray.

Both Quilan Vos and Cade Skywalker could've been Gray Jedi but both fail at managing the dark side.

[Ascended]

I think it's partially adopted in the New Jedi Order and a few of it's follow-up novels. There's even a novel cover with Luke using force lightning. However, it's pretty much dropped in Legacy of the Force which decides to go back to the old Jedi Vs. Sith/Galactic Civil War storyline.

So that's what I need to read? Cool, thanks. I gave this a google, but the results didn't seem reliable, and the few sites that did cite their sources...well, I'm not sure how those stories fit into canon in the first place. I'm still vague on what a gray Jedi actually is; are they just unorthodox Jedi who don't agree with all the dogma or do they actively explore both sides of the Force? Are they a few weirdo Jedi among the Order, or an actual organization unto themselves with their own philosophies and creed? Are they corrupted to some degree or not? And what little I could find from the actual canon didn't seem clear on this either, it doesn't seem to be a concept that ever got much attention in the first place.

Oh, and if they are canon, is it old canon or new? Both?

I despise the idea of “Grey” Jedi as in “mixing Light and Dark,” partially because of how some fans clearly want more amoral protagonists with Force Powers without accepting them as perfectly good Antagonists.

Care to elaborate? Is it the idea of someone tapping both sides that you disagree with, or just that fans seem to want it used for emo edgelord Jedi, like Tendrin was saying above?

But I love the idea of Jedi mislabeled as “Grey” because their unorthodox and have beliefs or behaviors that seem to fly in the face of dogma…

I was gonna bring this up too. Qui-Gon was supposed to be considered quite the rebel because he didn't agree with the Order's dogma right? Voss is another example. Does that make them gray? Years ago I read somewhere, in something that I think was official canon, that Yoda had studied the dark side (as an academic pursuit only) and that's why he could "catch" Force lightning in the prequels. Does that make him gray? If some random person taught themselves how to use the Force without the guidance of a larger Order, would they be considered gray?

I say we should have some characters discuss that, and alongside these “dogmatically grey” Jedi, have their complementary examples - “Grey Jedi” who are just “Dark Jedi” in waiting… and some “Totally Orthodox and Fine Jedi” who are *also* Dark Jedi in waiting

A dark Jedi is someone who forsakes the light side of the Force right, without necessarily belonging to a group like the Sith or Rens? Aren't the gray supposed to handle both sides? So you think there's no way to maintain a balance between the two? Are gray Jedi simply the first step towards full dark side corruption?

I was gonna bring up the larger point you made too. We all were having that conversation about what balancing the Force means, and maybe how the binary absolutes of the light and dark rub up against the motivations of people, who are morally complex. Is the gray Jedi a part of that discussion? Should they be? Did they find a kind of balance that eluded both orthodox Jedi and Sith, who can only maintain a connection to one side or the other? Does that fit within the larger mythos surrounding the Force? At least from a certain point of view?

So far the Bendu from Rebels is the only gray force user I've experienced. I think he's the best way to handle the gray side of the force. Rather than gray jedi or sith, having gray force users represent neutrality is the best way to go.

Yeah, the only "gray" Force user I've seen in the canon is the Bendu. Oh, probably the Father too, from that Cone Wars episode. If the Bendu is an example, the gray Jedi representing neutrality, maybe even pacifism, seems a pretty good role for them, I agree.

Maybe some of these questions are dumb. I stopped reading the novels back when Leia and Han's kids were still little, so there's a ton of stuff I missed. A lot of sites talked about the gray Jedi as if the reader already has a basic idea of what they are, how they become gray, and how they operate, but I'm mostly just making assumptions here.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

So that's what I need to read? Cool, thanks. I gave this a google, but the results didn't seem reliable, and the few sites that did cite their sources...well, I'm not sure how those stories fit into canon in the first place. I'm still vague on what a gray Jedi actually is; are they just unorthodox Jedi who don't agree with all the dogma or do they actively explore both sides of the Force? Are they a few weirdo Jedi among the Order, or an actual organization unto themselves with their own philosophies and creed? Are they corrupted to some degree or not? And what little I could find from the actual canon didn't seem clear on this either, it doesn't seem to be a concept that ever got much attention in the first place.

Oh, and if they are canon, is it old canon or new? Both?



Care to elaborate? Is it the idea of someone tapping both sides that you disagree with, or just that fans seem to want it used for emo edgelord Jedi, like Tendrin was saying above?



I was gonna bring this up too. Qui-Gon was supposed to be considered quite the rebel because he didn't agree with the Order's dogma right? Voss is another example. Does that make them gray? Years ago I read somewhere, in something that I think was official canon, that Yoda had studied the dark side (as an academic pursuit only) and that's why he could "catch" Force lightning in the prequels. Does that make him gray? If some random person taught themselves how to use the Force without the guidance of a larger Order, would they be considered gray?



A dark Jedi is someone who forsakes the light side of the Force right, without necessarily belonging to a group like the Sith or Rens? Aren't the gray supposed to handle both sides? So you think there's no way to maintain a balance between the two? Are gray Jedi simply the first step towards full dark side corruption?

I was gonna bring up the larger point you made too. We all were having that conversation about what balancing the Force means, and maybe how the binary absolutes of the light and dark rub up against the motivations of people, who are morally complex. Is the gray Jedi a part of that discussion? Should they be? Did they find a kind of balance that eluded both orthodox Jedi and Sith, who can only maintain a connection to one side or the other? Does that fit within the larger mythos surrounding the Force? At least from a certain point of view?



Yeah, the only "gray" Force user I've seen in the canon is the Bendu. Oh, probably the Father too, from that Cone Wars episode. If the Bendu is an example, the gray Jedi representing neutrality, maybe even pacifism, seems a pretty good role for them, I agree.

Maybe some of these questions are dumb. I stopped reading the novels back when Leia and Han's kids were still little, so there's a ton of stuff I missed. A lot of sites talked about the gray Jedi as if the reader already has a basic idea of what they are, how they become gray, and how they operate, but I'm mostly just making assumptions here.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-grey...Grey%20jedi%3F

Here is a handy guide I found on Quora.com
.

Kevin Winslow's answer is pretty informative.

[godisawesome]

So that's what I need to read? Cool, thanks. I gave this a google, but the results didn't seem reliable, and the few sites that did cite their sources...well, I'm not sure how those stories fit into canon in the first place. I'm still vague on what a gray Jedi actually is; are they just unorthodox Jedi who don't agree with all the dogma or do they actively explore both sides of the Force? Are they a few weirdo Jedi among the Order, or an actual organization unto themselves with their own philosophies and creed? Are they corrupted to some degree or not? And what little I could find from the actual canon didn't seem clear on this either, it doesn't seem to be a concept that ever got much attention in the first place.

Oh, and if they are canon, is it old canon or new? Both?



Care to elaborate? Is it the idea of someone tapping both sides that you disagree with, or just that fans seem to want it used for emo edgelord Jedi, like Tendrin was saying above?



I was gonna bring this up too. Qui-Gon was supposed to be considered quite the rebel because he didn't agree with the Order's dogma right? Voss is another example. Does that make them gray? Years ago I read somewhere, in something that I think was official canon, that Yoda had studied the dark side (as an academic pursuit only) and that's why he could "catch" Force lightning in the prequels. Does that make him gray? If some random person taught themselves how to use the Force without the guidance of a larger Order, would they be considered gray?



A dark Jedi is someone who forsakes the light side of the Force right, without necessarily belonging to a group like the Sith or Rens? Aren't the gray supposed to handle both sides? So you think there's no way to maintain a balance between the two? Are gray Jedi simply the first step towards full dark side corruption?

I was gonna bring up the larger point you made too. We all were having that conversation about what balancing the Force means, and maybe how the binary absolutes of the light and dark rub up against the motivations of people, who are morally complex. Is the gray Jedi a part of that discussion? Should they be? Did they find a kind of balance that eluded both orthodox Jedi and Sith, who can only maintain a connection to one side or the other? Does that fit within the larger mythos surrounding the Force? At least from a certain point of view?



Yeah, the only "gray" Force user I've seen in the canon is the Bendu. Oh, probably the Father too, from that Cone Wars episode. If the Bendu is an example, the gray Jedi representing neutrality, maybe even pacifism, seems a pretty good role for them, I agree.

Maybe some of these questions are dumb. I stopped reading the novels back when Leia and Han's kids were still little, so there's a ton of stuff I missed. A lot of sites talked about the gray Jedi as if the reader already has a basic idea of what they are, how they become gray, and how they operate, but I'm mostly just making assumptions here.

To me, the dark side has to be seen as abhorrent and unacceptable, so a Jedi tapping into the darkside should always be imbalanced until they reject it, and the longer they toy with it, the closer they are to a fall - while I enjoyed the video games letting you play with both as a game mechanic, that’s only as a game mechanic, and is unacceptable as a literary device.

But like I mentioned the other thread, I love the idea of critically deconstructing some of the Jedi’s dogma and perspective, with the dogma and perspective being the “light” mixed with unknown or risky experimental explorations of the Force’s larger nature as the “dark.”

Even the Bendu I like to think of as more of a primordial “nature deity” type of Force neutrality, possibly tied to a symbiotic connection to their planet, rather than as someone toying with the dark side alongside the light.

Like, a Jedi *can* become an “edgelord” anti-hero risking their soul by being undisciplined and allowing some temptation from the dark side… but that should only be shown as an unstable, untenable situation, where he must either break from his path or be damned. You don't need Grey a Jedi for “edgelord;” you just need temptation by the Dark Side. (Think Quinlan Vos in the old Legends comics where the tension was whether he could pull out of the fall)

But I’d also say that there should be Jedi trying to maintain discipline and being both wary of the dark side temptation and yet willing to risk it before that to better understand the Force and the “light side.” Sometimes, they might slip into “Edge lord” mode and need to pull back before falling or fall entirely… but they should also be times they seem far afield from what is proper and expected of a Jedi but still nowhere near fallen. (Think Zayne Carrick from the old Legends comics too.)

And I think there should also be seemingly perfectly doctrinal and dogmatic Jedi who maybe show how the limited view of the dogma can still leave them susceptible to the Dark Side in ways that the dogma can’t really deal with, especially if they simply have control freak tendencies (like Jorus C’Baoth in the old Legends Outbound Flight book, or how Dooku honestly comes off as in all canon.)

[ChrisIII]

The New Jedi Order is no longer canon-it's part of "Legends". It takes place at roughly the same time as the sequel trilogy, so it would've been incompatible anyway.

However certain EU elements have been reintroduced to Disney canon, although modified to fit better. Thrawn, Darktroopers, most recently Jaabim in Obi-Wan etc.

[Ascended]

Here is a handy guide I found on Quora.com

There we go, not a bad run down, with citation (or at least mention) from the films that I actually know about (some of the names y'all are tossing out...I have no idea who those people are). And Kevin Winslow's post *was* informative.

Thanks for all the replies, folks. It's appreciated. Between old canon, new canon, and stuff that was never canon to begin with (and me having never read or seen much of it outside the films and cartoons), and most of it found on random fan sites that don't differentiate between their own fiction and the actual franchise? Finding answers for this was harder than some research papers I've written. Or maybe I'm just lazier these days.

[ChrisIII]

I think it used to be a sort of 'fanon' that green lightsabers signaled a Jedi who was sort of in-between: Luke in ROTJ is example, although 'light' gets tempted by the dark side later in the film a few times, and Qui-Gon's obviously an unorthodox Jedi.

But I think that pretty much went out the window (especially since Yoda, who leads the order pretty much, also has a green saber). Whole reason for the green saber was mainly special effects-Luke's new saber was originally intended to be blue, but it didn't look good next to Arizona's blue skies during the Sail Barge fight (Every other time the blue sabers were used in the OT, they were on set).

[Ascended]

Yeah pretty sure that doesn't fit anymore. Each color is supposed to represent a specialization now right? Gold for guardians, green and blue, etc., for.....whatever else.

If anything I'd have thought that purple would represent a Jedi who's "in between." But that's just mixing Sith red with Jedi blue, and based on absolutely nothing more than what happens with paint.