How could DC Comics sales be revived?

[Agent Z]

That whole argument they're making sounds like so much swinging at ghosts.

On the one hand you're 100% right. The things that manga/manwha and anime are MOST known for and "overall" most popular for are Shounen stories aka little boy stories.
noun
noun: shounen
a genre of Japanese comics and animated films aimed primarily at a young male audience, typically characterized by action-filled plots.
"manga artists use the eyes to indicate emotions and sensitivity, not a high priority in early shonen manga"

So if people stop being so damn dishonest, then actually yeah...

Dc really IS in the business of brining back childhoods.

The fact that "Strength and value based stories" are popular with generations of American males is a thing that literally keeps the lights on at DC.
So seriously I just wish we could give up with the shenanigans. The fan base they think dc should be courting is "Hopeful" at best but much more likely "Mythological". As in... its a lie.

Dc is NOT about to make "VIXEN" for example the new flagship of their books. If they could they SURE as hell would by now and if they didn't? Its because it would be a financial disaster.

On the other hand. I wish they flippin would. I wish they would do all the passive aggressive things that some of these posters suggest. So the nostalgia bucks would stop completely.
So it could fail spectacularly. So we could get to saying "Yeah we tried that. Its a dead end". They're not though. Its going to be half measures forever, again, because as much as people
here cant NOT talk smack about 40 year old men hobbyist. They're money is the money moving this industry.

Lastly, kids are NOT hyper focused on reading a bunch of comics from Asian countries because they're "diverse" or because "Representation Matters" in Japan or China or Korea.
Nah. Anybody can see thats not the case. They're hyper focused on a visual medium that's focused on


....Stories of Timeless heroism and conflict....
Everything else is irrelevant.

Rebuild Dc like that.

Contrary to what people think, girls do read comics and manga. Manga being more accessible being one of those reasons.

[Agent Z]

Can you say this a little bit louder for the people in the back?! Can you post this in the Marvel forums as well?! There is nothing that can be done. Modern DC comics, like modern Marvel comics is like a person living in a hospice. It will have some good days but it's mostly bad days and when the end comes (the comic movie bubble bursting) you just want it to be quick and painless.

It never ceases to amaze me how many comic fans want the one thing that makes their hobby still relevant to fail.

[HsssH]

Contrary to what people think, girls do read comics and manga. Manga being more accessible being one of those reasons.

Poster that you quoted was talking specifically about shounen manga that is targeting male kids. Girls and women more often buy Shojo and Josei.

[Isaac Lawrence]

I’ve always said the main difference between American comic book adaptions and manga adaptions is that manga and anime have a complimentary relationship and while American comics and movies/cartoons etc have a parasitic relationship. Anime and manga help each other grow. While on the other end American movies make billions off of comic books while comic books languish in obscurity. Some movies even go out of their way to distance themselves from comics. This is clearly a relationship that doesn’t benefit comics at all.

I've long felt that DC should just do tie-ins and adaptations of their TV shows and movies.

Historically though the results have been mixed when it comes to that. Sometimes it goes over well, and sometimes not. Sometimes they put top writers and artists on it, oftentimes they don't though.

Or for those who don't really want the movies and TV shows to lead the way, they should just take a run or limited series that did really well and build off of that, like, yes, how they do with manga and anime. And do the comic, then do something animated that's a direct adaption or a continuation. And just rinse and repeat.

I'm reminded of the Gundam franchise in Japan. The animation exists to sell the model kits, and they do manga as well -- which can sometimes lead to getting animated... which then sells the model kits. It all fits together rather nicely.

Ultimately though of course there really is no strong desire to do anything like this from DC or Warner Bros., because that's simply not how they do business.

[Agent Z]

Poster that you quoted was talking specifically about shounen manga that is targeting male kids. Girls and women more often buy Shojo and Josei.

This article suggests otherwise:

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/0...-shoujo-manga/

Either that or they have no real preference.

[HsssH]

Weird, but that makes Midnight_v's point even stronger.

[Jabare]

consumption habits change just like with cable tv, netflix, and newpapers. Nothing stays consistent forever. Would I prefer some more comic line diversity? sure. But it's not like I'm buying every DC comic either.

I expect DC will keep on as they have been occasionally trying new books, but ultimately in a few years or decades they will switch exclusively to a digital or webcomic delivery. I'm sure they'll still sell trade paper back collections and volumes.

Not sure how traditional comic stores will survivie unless they are selling other products like memorabilia, games, clothing etc.

Years away but its coming eventually

[Anthony W]

It never ceases to amaze me how many comic fans want the one thing that makes their hobby still relevant to fail.

Never said I wanted it to die, just that I wanted the end to be quick and painless when the movie bubble finally pops because people like you think it's the only think that makes them relevant. Oh, and while girls do read manga Marvel and DC are losing fans to shounen manga which is aimed at..oh wait someone else already told you this.

[Daedalus]

I'm chipping in to the whole manga debate because I don't think that mimicking a specific subgenre of manga is a solve-all solution, as some here seem to think it is.

There are potential customers for DC Comics across multiple generations, and with diverse preferences. This is evident among the current slate that does sell well: there is a market for brooding detective stories, one for high-octane action stories, one for relationship-based wholesome stories, etc. The impressive success of Wayne Family Adventures is a another indicator that different customer bases prefer different styles of stories. Smoothing the entire line to conform to shonen tropes would be a mistake.

There's room for many different genres across DC, even within the same continuity. The readership may overlap, or it may not, but ultimately we're hoping one comic's readership contributes to the other's in the longrun, perhaps even in the far-off future (e.g., the young reader grows up to read the dark story years later). I do think that at least a corner of DC editorial understands this: we have Batgirls, which is aimed at young readers, Nightwing, which is a hopeful feel-good story, and Detective Comics, which is somber and dark, all under the same editor. There is something to be said about the point-of-purchase for each of these books: maybe the local comicbook store isn't the place a young readers comic is best poised to succeed. Maybe those should be in the young adult section at large bookstores. Nonetheless, the point remains, different books can succeed with different customer bases, and DC characters have enough of a cultural blueprint to warrant that broad appeal.

There are a few unrelated considerations that I think could help the line:

1. Better planning on character placement. An A-lister writes a series of an obscure character that sells solely based on his or her name. This happens often (e.g. Tom King's runs) and it should happen even more frequently! It's a wonderful way to bring new readers to those characters, and those runs tend to be well-written passion projects. But where do those characters go from there? Make sure to have a plan to use them after that run is over, otherwise it's a waste of good publicity for said character.

2. Better cross-brand coherence. This may irk us old comic readers, but every time a Marvel movie comes out, an associated comic jumps to the top-selling charts. DC doesn't have many movies on its slate, but the few that it does have, it uses poorly. The JSA is part of Black Adam, and we're getting a few movie tie-ins, but anyone wanting to jump into regular comics will be totally lost. Pierce Brosnan is reportedly a highlight from test-screenings, but Fate isn't on a comic right now, and Kent Nelson isn't even holding the mantle, time of writing. The Batman came out recently. Why isn't there a new printing of The Long Halloween around, being sold in regular bookstores, with a cover sticker stating "inspiration for The Batman"? The was one when The Dark Knight came out, with a foreword by Nolan.

3. Better coordination among the editorials. There is a big effort to diversify DC's hero lineup. That is a laudable goal, and there is a path to that, but it's often horribly executed, with no thought at all behind it. One example: Tim Drake came out as bi, which might have been a good move - the Bat-corner of DC had tons of female queer characters, but no male ones. Many had (either as wishful thinking or as subtext interpretation, that's completely irrelevant for sales talk) read into Tim's interactions with Conner for 20 years. Maybe there was a market out there for a Tim-Conner World's Finest-style book that was also a lovestory, even if this forum is not it. Comics with LGBT romance can sell quite well via indie publishers, so it's certainly not unthinkable. Instead, DC wasted that free press by waiting over a year to give Tim a comic, pairing him with a quaternary character nobody remembered, and making an entirely different Superboy also bi two months afterwards. Just thinking in business terms, with no creative judgment at all, it's money left on the table. A lot of these patterns occur throughout, and often it's not the decision itself, it's how it was executed.

4. Most importantly, have an easy entry point. DC Comics is quite hard to get into, and the continuity is puzzling even for longtime fans. This doesn't matter for us, as we've gotten over it, but for someone used to just picking up collected volume #1, it can be quite a nightmare. Most posts on DC's main subreddit are some variation of "How to start?". Publish some starter packs or something along those lines, market them as "start here" entrypoints, and sell them in widely available retail spaces, such as large chains of bookstores. Maybe Batman's is a 3-volume containing Year One, Long Halloween and Dark Victory. Maybe a second box contains Robin: Year One, Batgirl: Year One, and Nightwing: Year One. I don't know, I'm sure DC can figure out what comics would better serve as an introduction. The point is to have an obvious and well-marketed place for people to get into the hobby.

[thecoffeeman]

This thread is chock-full of interesting takes and ideas—some good, some questionable—but at the end of the day the biggest factor seems to be that media consumption habits have changed drastically over the past 20 years. Just take a look at where most serialized storytelling has gone: online. Someone here mentioned the Viz app, for example. It's $2 a month to access an enormous number of old chapters from many, many series, and the latest chapter is free. Dunno how that would work for DC or Marvel—maybe make the latest issue free, but you need to fork over a monthly fee for any and all back issues—but it's food for thought. One person mentioned that the DC/Marvel apps should include the latest issue as part of the monthly fee. IMO, that would all but kill comic shops unless the fee were something you tacked on for hardcore fans.

I say all this as a big fan of comics of all stripes in physical format—DC, Marvel, Image, manga, alt comix, etc. I just can't do digital for anything but TV, movies, and video games. In other words, stuff that requires a screen already.

Some people here have suggested that Marvel and DC will eventually switch to primarily being digital distributors, with collector paperbacks/hardcovers coming out for the hardcore fans. I predict this will happen eventually... just not for quite some time. Not until the Wednesday Warrior crowd is basically nonexistent, anyway.

[Aahz]

Maybe there was a market out there for a Tim-Conner World's Finest-style book that was also a lovestory, even if this forum is not it.

Question is how far that market overlaps with the market for classic Tim or Connor book. And how much of your in build fanbase for these characters you are loosing with a change like that.

Comics with LGBT romance can sell quite well via indie publishers, so it's certainly not unthinkable.

Question is again is that market really interested in Superheroes or would DC actually more successfull in that market with separate line of romance or slice of life comics (doesn't have to be just LGBT).

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

The point I actually wanted to make is the shonen manga/anime (at least if we are talking about the popular ones) haven't not really become more "progressive" or "diverse" or really changed the writing style all that much since the 90s or so and is still popular with the current generation.

So the argument so the argument that what brought young readers into 20-40 years ago, would not work for todays young readers doesn't seem that plausible.

And honestly I didn't really get into DC comics untill about 10 years ago and I still find stuff from the 80s to mid 2000s way better than most of the stuff they put out since OYL.

So in my experience, I do find content from the silver/bronze age of American comics to be the most similar to manga. It was more secular, had deeper interwoven plots and there was more variety in terms of team content vs solo content vs space content vs street level content. Now-a-days, you'd be hard pressed to find that kind of diversity and done right. Dc specifically also had Vertigo and Marvel was thriving really well with the introduction of spiderman, xmen, moon knight, daredevil and others. I think people mis understand why manga is so popular. Its because its escapism, its because its violent, its because its funny, its because they good romance. Its all of those things in one story. DC thinks just pandering to the loudest crowd will get them the most money but that has never and will never work. People want adventure, action, intense and enjoyable storytelling when they read comics.

Well manga comes first and I doubt that they make anime for manga that is not popular. And well it is not like they start writing manga with the idea that this will be anime, while many current superhero comics are written like pitches for movie or tv adaptations.

Coming from someone who grew up with manga/anime in Japan, I can assure you that most manga becomes popular BECAUSE of the anime and not the other way around. In fact, many mangas are written to be adapted into anime. It's a model that works really well for them. Manga is basically the screenplay for Anime as most of it is pretty 1:1. Manga is written the way it is because its supposed to resemble watching a tv show not like reading a book. So the plots and storylines are very tight, streamlined and tend to have their own beginning middle and ends like tv shows. It typically goes manga - anime - merchandise. Most animated content in Japan is based off of manga.

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

Question is how far that market overlaps with the market for classic Tim or Connor book. And how much of your in build fanbase for these characters you are loosing with a change like that.

Question is again is that market really interested in Superheroes or would DC actually more successfull in that market with separate line of romance or slice of life comics (doesn't have to be just LGBT).

LGBT content sells really well in young adult, romance and realistic fiction. Basically, content like John Green or Nicholas Sparks. They dont really do as well in action, thriller, fantasy or superhero genres since those genres tend to be more plot/story driven than character driven. Superhero comics sell more when the content features more action, drama and thrills. Hence why your top comics books are still works like Watchmen or Batman The Killing Joke. LGBT does really good in indie comics sector where there is more room for this character driven, slice of life stories. Romance as a whole isnt as profitable in superhero stuff, but in saying that, an iconic romance is almost essential for mainstream appeal to them, for marketing purposes. Hence why Lois and Clark is still around or Spiderman and Mj.

[Menacer]

LGBT content sells really well in young adult, romance and realistic fiction. Basically, content like John Green or Nicholas Sparks. They dont really do as well in action, thriller, fantasy or superhero genres since those genres tend to be more plot/story driven than character driven. Superhero comics sell more when the content features more action, drama and thrills. Hence why your top comics books are still works like Watchmen or Batman The Killing Joke. LGBT does really good in indie comics sector where there is more room for this character driven, slice of life stories. Romance as a whole isnt as profitable in superhero stuff, but in saying that, an iconic romance is almost essential for mainstream appeal to them, for marketing purposes. Hence why Lois and Clark is still around or Spiderman and Mj.

Hmmm I would have pegged Watchmen as depressing character study. I'd never consider it action or thrills... drama sure ...

[Daedalus]

Question is how far that market overlaps with the market for classic Tim or Connor book. And how much of your in build fanbase for these characters you are loosing with a change like that.

Speaking solely from a business perspective, I don't think that matters, because those characters were not being used. They were just parked away in the vault, earning the company no money. Any new revenue is a plus.

I'm also not sure different interpretations lose fans overall, even if the fans don't buy into that particular interpretation. Hal Jordan has had some very rough characterization over the past 20 years, and he's still around, and still has a large contingent of fans. The Harley Quinn TV show has very unflattering portrayals of many beloved characters (e.g. Jim Gordon), but I'm not sure people stop liking them elsewhere because of it.

Question is again is that market really interested in Superheroes

I don't see why they wouldn't be. We know there is a substantial segment of queer people interested in geek/nerd culture, and we know that this is no social media mere mirage - brands like as Critical Role/Dungeons & Dragons have capitalized on that and turned it into real targeted success.

Voltron, The Legend of Korra, The Legend of Vox Machina and other animated shows certainly remain solidly in the action-adventure space, while having LGBT characters in them. There is a market out there for fantasy/sci-fi/adventure with queer characters, and indie comics indicate that audience could be ported over to the medium. Korra even has a series of successful tie-in comics.

or would DC actually more successfull in that market with separate line of romance or slice of life comics (doesn't have to be just LGBT).

I think those are two different genres: slice-of-life is one thing, an action comic with romance in it is quite different. Tom King's Batman was in many ways a romance, but it wasn't slice-of-life. Now, I didn't like King's run, but it's an example that serves a point. You could likely unite some of the character's older fanbase and a new audience to justify a comic that, if released at the right time and with the right tone, could have garnered a lot of engagement.

The hope is, of course, that after reading this hypothetical comic, new readers become interested in what Tim is doing over in Detective Comics, and eventually buy that as well, and so on and so on. That is the justification for the line to be connected into the same continuity. Also, the DC mainline already has many different genres of stories, so I'm not sure why we'd need a brand new label for this one.

Tim was, as mentioned in my comment, simply an example of a trend: the main point is that I take no issue with most decisions DC makes to diversify their line-up. We live in different times than when I first started reading comics. But even if I have no issue with the decision, I think the execution is very poorly planned from a business perspective, missing relatively obvious opportunities.