Reasons other then sexism. why Wonderwoman feels like a smaller part of the big3

[mathew101281]

It has nothing to do with Wonderwoman herself. She is a fairly iconic character. It has everything to do with the world around her and how DC sells her. WonderWoman's supporting cast is very ill-defined. Characters like Steve Trevor and Wondergirl often go for decades without appearing in the comics. Wonderwoman doesn't have a recognizable city to protect(which often comes with supporting characters in it). It also doesn't help that DC fails to sell WW in any way to a male demographic. That might sound sexist at first, but hear me out. Most people think Batman and Superman are aimed at a male demographic, but that's only partly right. Characters like Batgirl Batwoman, Supergirl, etc. exist primarily because the people running the Batman and Superman franchises decided to increase the character's popularity by reaching out to other demographics. So now you have a situation, where Batman is dominating his own primary demographic( young men), and chipping away at Wonderwoman's primary demographic ( women, and LGBTQ) via his spinoff characters. Wonderwoman really doesn't have an answer to that.

[Gaius]

A thread that truly has never been created before.

[Psy-lock]

The last thing I need is more men and male-driven narratives in my Wonder Woman content

[Agent Z]

It has nothing to do with Wonderwoman herself. She is a fairly iconic character. It has everything to do with the world around her and how DC sells her. WonderWoman's supporting cast is very ill-defined. Characters like Steve Trevor and Wondergirl often go for decades without appearing in the comics. Wonderwoman doesn't have a recognizable city to protect(which often comes with supporting characters in it). It also doesn't help that DC fails to sell WW in any way to a male demographic. That might sound sexist at first, but hear me out. Most people think Batman and Superman are aimed at a male demographic, but that's only partly right. Characters like Batgirl Batwoman, Supergirl, etc. exist primarily because the people running the Batman and Superman franchises decided to increase the character's popularity by reaching out to other demographics. So now you have a situation, where Batman is dominating his own primary demographic( young men), and chipping away at Wonderwoman's primary demographic ( women, and LGBTQ) via his spinoff characters. Wonderwoman really doesn't have an answer to that.

Diana has had an LGBT fanbase for decades, long before Batwoman was a lesbian. As for women, if Batman can still sell to that demographic despite how crappily the franchise has treated women, men can stand to read a comic with little to no focus on male characters.

[Confuzzled]

Diana has had an LGBT fanbase for decades, long before Batwoman was a lesbian. As for women, if Batman can still sell to that demographic despite how crappily the franchise has treated women, men can stand to read a comic with little to no focus on male characters.

There's only one problem tho


On a more serious note, female Bat-characters like Catwoman, Batgirl, Harley & Ivy have been incredibly prolific in other media, probably more than Wonder Woman herself. There's enough good material featuring these characters to sustain female and LGBTQ fans.

And if that doesn't work, the Bat office has an Emergency button labeled NIGHTWING ASS

[mathew101281]

Diana has had an LGBT fanbase for decades, long before Batwoman was a lesbian. As for women, if Batman can still sell to that demographic despite how crappily the franchise has treated women, men can stand to read a comic with little to no focus on male characters.

Doesn’t change the fact Batman targets those audiences and in some ways is doing a better job at reaching them.

[WonderLight789]

There's only one problem tho


On a more serious note, female Bat-characters like Catwoman, Batgirl, Harley & Ivy have been incredibly prolific in other media, probably more than Wonder Woman herself. There's enough good material featuring these characters to sustain female and LGBTQ fans.

And if that doesn't work, the Bat office has an Emergency button labeled NIGHTWING ASS

Based on what? harly has her TV show. But her movie flopped hard. The others don't have anything on par with Lynda Carter's show level of success. Let alone Wonder Woman 2017 film. Or the amount of money WW has made and still makes on merchandise, toys, costumes etc. Even harley can't match her there.

[Agent Z]

Doesn’t change the fact Batman targets those audiences and in some ways is doing a better job at reaching them.

The Batman franchise didn't get popular by targeting the LGBT audience. In fact, for a long time DC went out of its way to discourage any associations with that community which is why the original Batwoman and Batgirl were created the way they were, and why Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn didn't come out as bisexual until the 2010s. Don't even get me started on the numerous blunders regarding women the Bat office has made such as Stephanie Brown's treatment in War Games, virtually everything that was done to Cassandra Cain after her solo series ended, the New 52 Batwoman, the repeated denigration, sidelining, infantilization or casual killing of women etc.

Women and the LGBT audience have rarely been a major concern for the Batman franchise and for every smart thing they do, there's five more idiotic moves from them when trying to appeal to those demographics. Yet, it remains incredibly popular in spite of that. So clearly, the issue with Wonder Woman isn't that she doesn't have the LGBT or male audience cornered, especially when she's had the former as fans even before Greg Rucka confirmed her as bisexual and Nubia was put in a relationship with Io.

[Agent Z]

Based on what? harly has her TV show. But her movie flopped hard. The others don't have anything on par with Lynda Carter's show level of success. Let alone Wonder Woman 2017 film. Or the amount of money WW has made and still makes on merchandise, toys, costumes etc. Even harley can't match her there.

Prolific means the extent to which they are used in media, not how successful or popular it is. Most people in the 21st century or even the 20th haven't watched the Lynda Carter show.

[WonderLight789]

Prolific means the extent to which they are used in media, not how successful or popular it is. Most people in the 21st century or even the 20th haven't watched the Lynda Carter show.

Still. The last 13 years WW has had 2 animated shows, 2 live action films. And will have 6 live appearances on films so far by the end of this year. Other animated movie appearances, video games etc. The other women mentioned don't match her.

[bardkeep]

"Wonder Woman will never sell as well as Batman/Superman if her stories don't cater more to men"

ohnoanyway.jpg

The fact that her stories are focused on women is literally the point, and has been the point since her conception. I'm not interested in 5 ongoings and an animated series if they're warping her entire mythos to appeal more to straight dudes.

Besides, between an upcoming AAA solo game, a 3rd live action movie, and one of the best titles DC's ever put out (Historia) the brand seems to be in a pretty good spot at the moment.

[Multiverse]

I think the main issue that makes Wonder Woman lesser is the same issue I have with Martian Manhunter, Hawkman and Pre-2008 Aquaman: their history is warbled at best.

While Superman, Batman, Flash and Green Lantern has a relatively consistent history (the odd update here and there, but not enough to head-scratch), Wonder Woman (and the others mentioned) for me has had a rather inconsistent history that has rapidly changed with the times. As a result (in my opinion), alot of her supporting cast and rogues gallery also have become either very inconsistant (Donna Troy's Origin comes to mind here), dated (Paula Von Gunther, Egg Fu and I Ching), or forgotten.

[John Venus]

I feel like however you frame the argument, you're going to end up looping back around to sexism and institutionalized sexism means that you can still end up being sexist despite your best intentions. Perez is the gold standard but even he had a few misses (the Hippolyta/Heracles thing for example) and it's not just limited to men either, see WW84 for example.

The main problem with WW is:

-lack of consistency

Every writer wants to 'fix' the character. So we get a new supporting cast and a new direction every month. Nothing ever develops or grows.

-writers don't believe in the character or her message and themes

Wonder Woman is meant to be a deterrent against aggression and violence. Her stories do center on the violence women face in society both in ancient times and today. Most writers aren't ready to deal with that. Or they hold outdated views anti thetical views which they then try to graft onto the character leading to point #1. Examples of those writers; Azzarello, Wagner, Robinson and the DCAU writers.

[Agent Z]

Still. The last 13 years WW has had 2 animated shows, 2 live action films. And will have 6 live appearances on films so far by the end of this year. Other animated movie appearances, video games etc. The other women mentioned don't match her.

Between the DCAU, The Batman and now her own animated series, I'd say Harley's had a consistent presence in animation comparable to if not better than Diana's. Don't forget her being featured in the Arkham games and the upcoming Suicide Squad games.

[mathew101281]

"Wonder Woman will never sell as well as Batman/Superman if her stories don't cater more to men"

ohnoanyway.jpg

The fact that her stories are focused on women is literally the point, and has been the point since her conception. I'm not interested in 5 ongoings and an animated series if they're warping her entire mythos to appeal more to straight dudes.

Besides, between an upcoming AAA solo game, a 3rd live action movie, and one of the best titles DC's ever put out (Historia) the brand seems to be in a pretty good spot at the moment.

It might be the point but it also explains the sales disparity between Batman Superman and Wonderwoman. Batman and to a lesser degree Superman cast a wide net of potential fans while Wonderwoman by her nature seems to be more targeted at a specific audience.