Reasons other then sexism. why Wonderwoman feels like a smaller part of the big3

[bardkeep]

The reason why Batman has so many good stories to him is because his universe has a proven track record of producing good stories. This is essentially a feedback loop; the more good stories Batman produces = the more good artists that will want to work on the project. Wonder Woman just doesn't have this catalogue with exception to Marston's work, which continues to see reprints more than 80 years later, Perez's stuff, Brian Azzerello's stuff, Greg Rucka's revival...what are the other major tent poles of Wonder Woman?

I'd put both Rucka runs here, particularly Hiketeia. But well-regarded runs are very different than well-regarded self-contained GNs, and her offerings in that regard are VERY scant compared to Batman and Superman. You also have the huge impact BTAS made.

That said, WW's 2 for 2 with Black Label books. Dead Earth was controversial with fans but really well-regarded generally and Historia is very much on track to become not just a character tentpole but a genre classic. Hopefully that gets more writers/artists interested and incentivizes DC to greenlight more self-contained projects.

[SomeRandomSmartA55]

My theory: The Villains

Batman and Superman have some of the most iconic rogue's galleries in all of comics, Diana....not so much. Yes she has Circe, Cheetah, Ares and a few others. but she also has villains like Egg Fu, the Angle Man, & Blue Snowman. You know that saying about how heroes are made my the villains they face? Diana is great, but she needs better foes to face

[Pinsir]

I'd put both Rucka runs here, particularly Hiketeia. But well-regarded runs are very different than well-regarded self-contained GNs, and her offerings in that regard are VERY scant compared to Batman and Superman. You also have the huge impact BTAS made.

That said, WW's 2 for 2 with Black Label books. Dead Earth was controversial with fans but really well-regarded generally and Historia is very much on track to become not just a character tentpole but a genre classic. Hopefully that gets more writers/artists interested and incentivizes DC to greenlight more self-contained projects.

I think there definitely has been a change in how Wonder Woman has been perceived recently, the movie probably had a huge role in that and the character is beginning to have a pretty decent output, at least for self-containing stories. I would say the issue right now is that we still haven't broken the cycle (I think, not keeping up with the most recent titles) of the reboot being the best 'in-continuity' title until the next reboot.

[godisawesome]

Pretty much.

Batman having (extremely loose) brushstrokes connected history that dates back to the GA has little to nothing do with his success. It's stuff like you can go to any regular book store or online retailer and buy multiple good Batman runs or standalone stories.

It may be a chicken and egg situation, where the insistence on restarting continuity is because of a lack of good stories, or the lack of good stories is because they insist on restarting continuity all the time… but I think the two are linked and undeniable.

Batman writers get ambitious and emerge from all over the place to take their best shot because they like previous Batman stories - where, if nothing else, the fact writers can bounce around his timeline and find stories and eras that interest them means there’s more inherent flexibility, but also a greater standard to meet yet also a greater opportunity for journeyman writers to make a competent showing of themselves without the same pressure that rebooting a story brings with it.

Countless Batman writers got their start writing a supporting book taking a cue from some older writers work that they respected or adjusted to, whether that older writer was Denny O’Neill, Frank Miller, Grant Morrison, or Scott Snyder.

Meanwhile, whenever the order/freedom is given to a Superman or Wonder Woman writer to reboot the character, you’re always challenging the work of the older writers, and treading the same ground they did.

Wonder Woman’s just had a lot more of that than even Superman… but the effects are the same.

Strict continuity isn’t really a godsend… but respecting a rough continuity means building on top of the work of great writers, rather than trying to replace it.

[Agent Z]

My theory: The Villains

Batman and Superman have some of the most iconic rogue's galleries in all of comics, Diana....not so much. Yes she has Circe, Cheetah, Ares and a few others. but she also has villains like Egg Fu, the Angle Man, & Blue Snowman. You know that saying about how heroes are made my the villains they face? Diana is great, but she needs better foes to face

Most people can't name a Superman villain besides Luthor, Brainiac, Zod, Doomsday and Darkseid. Darkseid isn't really a Superman villain and Doomsday was only good for one story (that wasn't very good itself). And these villains are only considered iconic because of their constant appearances in other media which developed them. No one would have called Mr Freeze iconic before the DCAU.

[HestiasHearth]

Most people can't name a Superman villain besides Luthor, Brainiac, Zod, Doomsday and Darkseid. Darkseid isn't really a Superman villain and Doomsday was only good for one story (that wasn't very good itself). And these villains are only considered iconic because of their constant appearances in other media which developed them. No one would have called Mr Freeze iconic before the DCAU.

Thank you!
I hate when people still push that "WW's foes are not as iconic as Batman's!" BS, when the reality is that for any character to become iconic there has to be a conscious effort on the publisher's part to continue producing product with that character. These characters don't exist in a bubble and don't magically become "iconic"; DC saturates multi media platforms with Joker and Catwoman and Clayface and Mr, Freeze...and generation after generation continues seeing those characters as essential part of pop culture. If DC had treated Queen Clea, Angle Man (yes, Angle Man) and Deva with even 50 % of the effort that they used for Catwoman and Mr. Freeze, the story would be different. And again, this includes all the constant availability of animated shows, multiple comic books, newspaper strips, movies, live-action TV programs and merchandising everywhere from Walmart to your local 7-11. Sadly, the self-fullfilling prophecy of "WW doesn't sell/isnt as popular", hence DC doesn't think it's worthy to spend money on giving her additional platforms" is as present as ever.

Diana and her villains need to be nurtured into the next level of iconic status: she needs animated TV shows, video games, live-action series, web-toons and more than one measly comic book showcase a month. And films, of course. They need to have WW&Co toys, bedding, backpacks, and school supplies be available on Wal Mart all the time (like Batman and Superman stuff is). They need to be present in pop culture and saturate it for them to be truly iconic.

[bardkeep]

Thank you!
I hate when people still push that "WW's foes are not as iconic as Batman's!" BS, when the reality is that for any character to become iconic there has to be a conscious effort on the publisher's part to continue producing product with that character. These characters don't exist in a bubble and don't magically become "iconic"; DC saturates multi media platforms with Joker and Catwoman and Clayface and Mr, Freeze...and generation after generation continues seeing those characters as essential part of pop culture. If DC had treated Queen Clea, Angle Man (yes, Angle Man) and Deva with even 50 % of the effort that they used for Catwoman and Mr. Freeze, the story would be different. And again, this includes all the constant availability of animated shows, multiple comic books, newspaper strips, movies, live-action TV programs and merchandising everywhere from Walmart to your local 7-11. Sadly, the self-fullfilling prophecy of "WW doesn't sell/isnt as popular", hence DC doesn't think it's worthy to spend money on giving her additional platforms" is as present as ever.

Diana and her villains need to be nurtured into the next level of iconic status: she needs animated TV shows, video games, live-action series, web-toons and more than one measly comic book showcase a month. And films, of course. They need to have WW&Co toys, bedding, backpacks, and school supplies be available on Wal Mart all the time (like Batman and Superman stuff is). They need to be present in pop culture and saturate it for them to be truly iconic.

Yup, and I think that original comment underestimates WW's more popular villains. Giganta is arguably more recognizable with the general public than Darkseid or Doomsday, Dr. Psycho is one of the main characters in Harley Quinn, Dr. Poison was in the first movie, and Veronica Cale and Silver Swan both showed up in Bloodlines which is more niche but still.

And if we're citing Egg Fu (an unfortunate racist remnant of the Silver Age that hasn't been used in decades), Angle Man, and Blue Snowman, you could just as easily cite any of the solid villains who've shown up in her comics in recent years (Deimos/Phobos, Duke of Deception, Dr. Cyber, Janus, Mayfly, Image Maker, Grail...) or any number of her oft-neglected rogues (Queen Clea, Devastation, Medusa, Decay, Genocide...).

I think an animated series is really the thing that'd take her rogues gallery to the next level. BTAS and STAS are really the things that did it for them. It gives them enough space to highlight lots of different baddies and would get writers out of the cycle of just using Cheetah, Dr. Psycho, and Dr. Poison on repeat. Honestly even Circe and Ares haven't been all that present in the last couple of years, other than Circe in JLD.

[Agent Z]

Yup, and I think that original comment underestimates WW's more popular villains. Giganta is arguably more recognizable with the general public than Darkseid or Doomsday, Dr. Psycho is one of the main characters in Harley Quinn, Dr. Poison was in the first movie, and Veronica Cale and Silver Swan both showed up in Bloodlines which is more niche but still.

Being as fair as possible, being recognized and being liked aren't the same thing, but that goes back to my point of them needing to be properly developed in the comics and other media which is unfortunately not always the case.

And if we're citing Egg Fu (an unfortunate racist remnant of the Silver Age that hasn't been used in decades),

Honestly, I find the Al Ghuls to be racist caricatures just like Egg Fu, but the latter is much more blatant and the former could be written better but aren't.

[HestiasHearth]

Yup, and I think that original comment underestimates WW's more popular villains. Giganta is arguably more recognizable with the general public than Darkseid or Doomsday, Dr. Psycho is one of the main characters in Harley Quinn, Dr. Poison was in the first movie, and Veronica Cale and Silver Swan both showed up in Bloodlines which is more niche but still.

And if we're citing Egg Fu (an unfortunate racist remnant of the Silver Age that hasn't been used in decades), Angle Man, and Blue Snowman, you could just as easily cite any of the solid villains who've shown up in her comics in recent years (Deimos/Phobos, Duke of Deception, Dr. Cyber, Janus, Mayfly, Image Maker, Grail...) or any number of her oft-neglected rogues (Queen Clea, Devastation, Medusa, Decay, Genocide...).

I think an animated series is really the thing that'd take her rogues gallery to the next level. BTAS and STAS are really the things that did it for them. It gives them enough space to highlight lots of different baddies and would get writers out of the cycle of just using Cheetah, Dr. Psycho, and Dr. Poison on repeat. Honestly even Circe and Ares haven't been all that present in the last couple of years, other than Circe in JLD.

I agree 100 %.

[DochaDocha]

Giganta more recognizable with the general public than Darkseid or Doomsday? I wouldn't make that argument, at least not in 2022 and not in any sort of good faith. I think Giganta's biggest mainstream push was in the Superfriends Cartoon (Darkseid was involved, too, but I'm guessing he got less screentime). But I'm not sure what else would vault Giganta into the public's consciousness. It's not the comics, it's not the cartoons, it's not recent Hollywood or DTV movies, it's not video games... where is the general public going to learn about Giganta? Maybe she's in the Harley Quinn cartoon, which I don't watch, but she's not gotten more exposure than Doomsday did in several animated movies and the DCEU, Darkseid in the DCAU and DCEU, etc.

The thing about Batman's rogues gallery is that they are mostly quirky characters that can focus on their one quirk. Someone like Riddler or Scarecrow doesn't have to be good at amassing an army of have great hand-to-hand skills. I mean, really, if your metric for how good a villain is was how much of a challenge do they present to Batman, a lot of them would be disqualified. Really, there's no good reason why the Joker would give the DCU so many headaches for so many years. So I think WW and Superman and other DC heroes' villains get unfairly judged because for whatever the reason, the standard for what makes for a good Batman villain got lowered decades ago. And there seems to be some crazy cycle of

We can't use this villain in this movie because the villain isn't popular enough. > So why you use this lesser-known villain in the latest Batman movie? > We can't keep re-hashing the same villains. > Wo why don't you branch out with this villain in the next superhero movie? > We can't use this villain in this movie because the villain isn't popular enough.

[Gaius]

Giganta more recognizable with the general public than Darkseid or Doomsday? I wouldn't make that argument, at least not in 2022 and not in any sort of good faith. I think Giganta's biggest mainstream push was in the Superfriends Cartoon (Darkseid was involved, too, but I'm guessing he got less screentime). But I'm not sure what else would vault Giganta into the public's consciousness. It's not the comics, it's not the cartoons, it's not recent Hollywood or DTV movies, it's not video games... where is the general public going to learn about Giganta? Maybe she's in the Harley Quinn cartoon, which I don't watch, but she's not gotten more exposure than Doomsday did in several animated movies and the DCEU, Darkseid in the DCAU and DCEU, etc.

The thing about Batman's rogues gallery is that they are mostly quirky characters that can focus on their one quirk. Someone like Riddler or Scarecrow doesn't have to be good at amassing an army of have great hand-to-hand skills. I mean, really, if your metric for how good a villain is was how much of a challenge do they present to Batman, a lot of them would be disqualified. Really, there's no good reason why the Joker would give the DCU so many headaches for so many years. So I think WW and Superman and other DC heroes' villains get unfairly judged because for whatever the reason, the standard for what makes for a good Batman villain got lowered decades ago. And there seems to be some crazy cycle of

We can't use this villain in this movie because the villain isn't popular enough. > So why you use this lesser-known villain in the latest Batman movie? > We can't keep re-hashing the same villains. > Wo why don't you branch out with this villain in the next superhero movie? > We can't use this villain in this movie because the villain isn't popular enough.

Think Giganta's main thing (always pretty much) is that she's appears a lot (usually villain groups) but rarely is actually impactful (so WW in 98% of Justice League stories ). So she's recognizable to casuals who only watch DC media adaptations as a giant cavewoman but not much for anything else.

Same with Cheetah, I think it's largely a legacy of Super-Friends. Darkseid was there too but I think he was from the later iterations which isn't really in the public mind when people like to call-back or parody it.

[DochaDocha]

Think Giganta's main thing (always pretty much) is that she's appears a lot (usually villain groups) but rarely is actually impactful (so WW in 98% of Justice League stories ). So she's recognizable to casuals who only watch DC media adaptations as a giant cavewoman but not much for anything else.

Same with Cheetah, I think it's largely a legacy of Super-Friends. Darkseid was there too but I think he was from the later iterations which isn't really in the public mind when people like to call-back or parody it.

I agree, but what today are casuals watching today that they see Giganta a lot but not Darkseid or Doomsday? If we said this in 1983 I might agree, but not in 2022.

[Nyssane]

I agree, but what today are casuals watching today that they see Giganta a lot but not Darkseid or Doomsday? If we said this in 1983 I might agree, but not in 2022.

While I don't agree that Giganta is more recognizable than Darkseid or Doomsday, she's definitely been in more adaptations than any other WW rogue besides Cheetah. She was featured in a number of episodes in the Justice League animated series which I'd say is just as foundational to pop culture as Superfriends was in the 70's. She's also part of the regular group of antagonists in the DC Super Hero Girls series alongside Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Catwoman, etc. Adult men might not be the target audience, but it's a very successful franchise with younger audiences that is spreading the word about Giganta and the rest of DC's leading ladies. She also does appear in the Harley Quinn show for a few episodes, though nothing major. Apparently the comics tie-in has her as one of Poison Ivy's potential recruits for a Ladies-Only Legion of Doom.

There's also quite a few animated movies and video games that feature Giganta in varying levels of prominence. So I think it's misguided to assume nobody knows who she is.

[bardkeep]

I agree, but what today are casuals watching today that they see Giganta a lot but not Darkseid or Doomsday? If we said this in 1983 I might agree, but not in 2022.

I was born long after 1983, but the DC iteration I knew as a kid was JL/JLU so maybe that's why I'm saying that. Giganta, Darkseid, and Doomsday all got similar screentime but "giant lady named Giganta" is a lot easier to remember than 2 big gray alien guys with D-names.

Now that I think about it, really wondering which villains they're going to choose for the video game because that'll definitely be some exposure. The teaser leans heavily into the ancient Greek aesthetic and it sounds like it'll be set on Themyscira which makes me think it'll be more focused on mythological gods and monsters, but Cheetah will definitely be there and from a gameplay perspective Giganta is an obvious choice. And I'm 100% sure Circe will be one of, if not THE Big Bad, wonder how they'd design that boss battle.

[Psy-lock]

My biggest fear for that game is that they'll just pick some generic mythological foes with no direct connection to Wonder Woman and call it a day. I want to be optimistic, but the fact that no comic book people are involved in the project (at least so far) doesn't inspire much faith. Especially since the biggest mainstream stuff involving WW are the DCEU, DCAU and Injustice. Not exactly stellar representations of her universe.