Reasons other then sexism. why Wonderwoman feels like a smaller part of the big3

[Agent Z]

"Wonder Woman will never sell as well as Batman/Superman if her stories don't cater more to men"

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The fact that her stories are focused on women is literally the point, and has been the point since her conception. I'm not interested in 5 ongoings and an animated series if they're warping her entire mythos to appeal more to straight dudes.

Besides, between an upcoming AAA solo game, a 3rd live action movie, and one of the best titles DC's ever put out (Historia) the brand seems to be in a pretty good spot at the moment.

Speaking as a straight guy, I'd argue that Diana doesn't even need to be changed to appeal to the demographic either. One of may favorite shows as a kid was WITCH, a magical girl series.

[Confuzzled]

Still. The last 13 years WW has had 2 animated shows, 2 live action films. And will have 6 live appearances on films so far by the end of this year. Other animated movie appearances, video games etc. The other women mentioned don't match her.

Eh, if you actually do the counting, I think they're pretty much the same, especially Selina and Harley who've had their own animated movies and a number of live action, video game and animated appearances since the 90's. Barbara and Ivy aren't far behind either.

Of course, the biggest advantage these 4 Batverse women have over WW is they actually GET to interact with each other. Most of Diana's other media adaptations are in Justice League stories where she is one of just 2 or the only woman on the team with no opportunity to form female friendships or rivalries. The Gotham Girls webseries had 3 whole seasons focusing only on the 4 of the mentioned women. Generalizing a bit, but if the success of the X-Divas has taught us anything, it's that female and LGBTQ audiences will be more interested in established female relationships like the ones the Gotham City Sirens share with each other than just seeing Wonder Woman be the token female on a boys' team.

[WonderLight789]

Eh, if you actually do the counting, I think they're pretty much the same, especially Selina and Harley who've had their own animated movies and a number of live action, video game and animated appearances since the 90's. Barbara and Ivy aren't far behind either.

Of course, the biggest advantage these 4 Batverse women have over WW is they actually GET to interact with each other. Most of Diana's other media adaptations are in Justice League stories where she is one of just 2 or the only woman on the team with no opportunity to form female friendships or rivalries. The Gotham Girls webseries had 3 whole seasons focusing only on the 4 of the mentioned women. Generalizing a bit, but if the success of the X-Divas has taught us anything, it's that female and LGBTQ audiences will be more interested in established female relationships like the ones the Gotham City Sirens share with each other than just seeing Wonder Woman be the token female on a boys' team.

If she doesn't interact with morre of her female cast. It is noy her fault. DC has the trackrecord of being a total mess when it comes to handlin the WW brand. Still she has made plenty amount of hits regardless. And Between her own animated movies, other animated movies. Live action movies, multiple titles, Super Hero Girls, her upcoming solo game, merchandise etc. WW is not lacking exposure. Anbd she is still getting her name out there more often than the others. Only harley is comparable. And you can thank the power of batman to that. All those four were helped by the popularity of an already established male figure. Diana has had to work on her own all the time. In an industry that has been very sexists and rough to women for the longest time.

[Primal Slayer]

I think part of the reason why WW feels like a smaller part of the Big 3 is because many see her as being "to perfect" and thus kind of boring. Many can't find many flaws in Diana and either see her as ruthless Warrior Amazon ala New52 JL or marysue "I love everyone and I dont want to hurt anyone" kind of like WW84.

Another part of that is her villains not really being given their due and feeling one note to some.

A lot of people navigate towards darker stories which is something that Batman has made a success off of.

But a lot of this is also helpful from media outside of comics. Batman and Superman have become as successful as they have BECAUSE they've been able to develop so much in other media. Supermans radio show was a big game changer for the character, Batman 66 introduced a lot of villains to the general public. The WW show introduced a lot of people to Diana herself but not her villains. They were very run of the mill and generic. BTAS breathed new life into a lot of Batman villains. WW missed out on most of these things that helped elevate not only her but her villains/supporting cast, etc...

[Perseus]

I think part of the reason why WW feels like a smaller part of the Big 3 is because many see her as being "to perfect" and thus kind of boring. Many can't find many flaws in Diana and either see her as ruthless Warrior Amazon ala New52 JL or marysue "I love everyone and I dont want to hurt anyone" kind of like WW84.

Another part of that is her villains not really being given their due and feeling one note to some.

A lot of people navigate towards darker stories which is something that Batman has made a success off of.

But a lot of this is also helpful from media outside of comics. Batman and Superman have become as successful as they have BECAUSE they've been able to develop so much in other media. Supermans radio show was a big game changer for the character, Batman 66 introduced a lot of villains to the general public. The WW show introduced a lot of people to Diana herself but not her villains. They were very run of the mill and generic. BTAS breathed new life into a lot of Batman villains. WW missed out on most of these things that helped elevate not only her but her villains/supporting cast, etc...

This is really interesting to me, because if you step back beyond the bright colors and art, the origin of the amazons is pretty dark/mature. I mean Zeus and Diana's interaction in Challenge of the Gods was as close to have someone like Diana experience sexual violence as you could possibly get.

I know a good portion of this fan base doesn't want Wonder Woman to be Batman-lite and I'm not suggesting that we put a grey color filter over her world. However, if more open-minded creators saw those parallels, would we get nuanced mature stories that could show Diana as someone that can tell dark stories with gravitas?

[Confuzzled]

If she doesn't interact with morre of her female cast. It is noy her fault. DC has the trackrecord of being a total mess when it comes to handlin the WW brand. Still she has made plenty amount of hits regardless. And Between her own animated movies, other animated movies. Live action movies, multiple titles, Super Hero Girls, her upcoming solo game, merchandise etc. WW is not lacking exposure. Anbd she is still getting her name out there more often than the others. Only harley is comparable. And you can thank the power of batman to that. All those four were helped by the popularity of an already established male figure. Diana has had to work on her own all the time. In an industry that has been very sexists and rough to women for the longest time.

Okay but that's a separate conversation. The point remains that the female Bat characters can sustain a female and LGBTQ+ fanbase for the Batverse by themselves due to the fact that they have extremely strong presence in media in every decade since the 90's.

[Alpha]

This is really interesting to me, because if you step back beyond the bright colors and art, the origin of the amazons is pretty dark/mature. I mean Zeus and Diana's interaction in Challenge of the Gods was as close to have someone like Diana experience sexual violence as you could possibly get.

I know a good portion of this fan base doesn't want Wonder Woman to be Batman-lite and I'm not suggesting that we put a grey color filter over her world. However, if more open-minded creators saw those parallels, would we get nuanced mature stories that could show Diana as someone that can tell dark stories with gravitas?

Personally I'm never gonna be in favour of Diana being out into a position where she is a abused by any meaning of the word (and yes I totally understand you were giving an example where she isn't actually abused, you were just pointing out a scenario with some undertones).

Obviously Diana has had plenty of darker stories that feel true to the character. Even though I hate the cover of Hiketeia, the story itself is very intense. William messner Loebs wrote a lot of darker stories with Wonder Woman without hurting her. Dr Psycho was at the center of many dark stories too. And if we go back to the 70s we find many dark stories with her.

I understand how that could make a difference.

Ultimately, the biggest difference between Wonder Woman and these bat characters mentioned is that up until now, most gay content in Wonder Woman has only been suggested, not shown. And when it comes to outside adaptations, not present at all.

[VonHammersmark]

I think some writers/content creators put Wonder Woman in a bit of an ideological straight-jacket, she’s more an icon than a character. That’s always been an issue for WW but now she’s sort of been hijacked by these people. They claim Diana stands for all these things, and if you’re not in agreement with ALL of it like a true believer…well then this character’s not for you they say

Ok then, perhaps we should read Batman instead

[Agent Z]

Personally I'm never gonna be in favour of Diana being out into a position where she is a abused by any meaning of the word (and yes I totally understand you were giving an example where she isn't actually abused, you were just pointing out a scenario with some undertones).

Obviously Diana has had plenty of darker stories that feel true to the character. Even though I hate the cover of Hiketeia, the story itself is very intense. William messner Loebs wrote a lot of darker stories with Wonder Woman without hurting her. Dr Psycho was at the center of many dark stories too. And if we go back to the 70s we find many dark stories with her.

I understand how that could make a difference.

Ultimately, the biggest difference between Wonder Woman and these bat characters mentioned is that up until now, most gay content in Wonder Woman has only been suggested, not shown. And when it comes to outside adaptations, not present at all.

Messner-Loebs wrote the Artemis: Requiem miniseries where Diana was captured and tortured by demons.

[Agent Z]

I think some writers/content creators put Wonder Woman in a bit of an ideological straight-jacket, sheÂ’s more an icon than a character. ThatÂ’s always been an issue for WW but now sheÂ’s sort of been hijacked by these people. They claim Diana stands for all these things, and if youÂ’re not in agreement with ALL of it like a true believerÂ…well then this characterÂ’s not for you they say

Ok then, perhaps we should read Batman instead

Batman has the same problems you criticize Diana for.

[bardkeep]

This is really interesting to me, because if you step back beyond the bright colors and art, the origin of the amazons is pretty dark/mature. I mean Zeus and Diana's interaction in Challenge of the Gods was as close to have someone like Diana experience sexual violence as you could possibly get.

I know a good portion of this fan base doesn't want Wonder Woman to be Batman-lite and I'm not suggesting that we put a grey color filter over her world. However, if more open-minded creators saw those parallels, would we get nuanced mature stories that could show Diana as someone that can tell dark stories with gravitas?

The "problem" with WW's mythos (I put that in quotes because it's basically why I love the character and her lore) is that the nature of its darkness is alienating for some readers.

With the Perez origin, Diana's story is rooted in her people working through collective trauma. In their case it's about women dealing with a history of violence at the hands of men, but it can really serve as an allegory for any group that's been oppressed or endured systemic violence. Batman's story is about one guy dealing with personal violence. Everyone knows what it's like to be hurt and have that shape you; not everyone knows what it's like to come from a community that's been hurt and shaped by that pain.

Lots of great WW stories have acknowledged and explored this, e.g. Perez's entire run and The Circle. But because it's not 100% universally relatable and comes with a lot of nuance and some inherent discomfort, a lot of writers don't want to touch it. This certainly isn't to discount anyone who doesn't come from a marginalized group or claim that they can't work with or appreciate those themes (George Perez was a straight white guy, plus plenty of writers who aren't straight white guys have totally missed the point), but sadly empathy and nuance can be a lot to expect of readers.

Just look at how many "dark" takes on the origin reframe the narrative so it's about personal trauma while failing to address the theme of collective trauma entirely. The N52 origin is about Diana coming from a community of murderous separatists who bullied and lied to her through her entire life. The True Amazon origin is about Diana accidentally killing another Amazon and needing to leave as penance. The Earth One origin centers that trauma with Hippolyta and positions Diana as her rape revenge fantasy, in addition to having the n52 thing where Diana sort of grows up as a pariah. Etc., etc.

Fortunately right now we're getting the exact sort of dark, mature, weighty story the mythos accommodates in Historia.

[WonderLight789]

Okay but that's a separate conversation. The point remains that the female Bat characters can sustain a female and LGBTQ+ fanbase for the Batverse by themselves due to the fact that they have extremely strong presence in media in every decade since the 90's.

So can WW. Those characters are not more popular than or successful than her.

[Alpha]

Messner-Loebs wrote the Artemis: Requiem miniseries where Diana was captured and tortured by demons.

Did you read what I wrote?

What I said was "he wrote a lot of darker stories without hurting Diana". I didn't say he never hurt Diana, I said he wrote many dark stories where she didn't get hurt.

And your comment is totally irrelevant to the topic of what it means to write a dark story with Wonder Woman

[WonderLight789]

Did you read what I wrote?

What I said was "he wrote a lot of darker stories without hurting Diana". I didn't say he never hurt Diana, I said he wrote many dark stories where she didn't get hurt.

And your comment is totally irrelevant to the topic of what it means to write a dark story with Wonder Woman

loebs run is almost like porn. You can get more scenes of females an their butts than actual dialogue.

[Alpha]

loebs run is almost like porn. You can get more scenes of females an their butts than actual dialogue.

That has nothing to do with the writer. That's Mike Deodato Jr's art.

William Messner Loebs wrote the best damn take on Diana's voice. He understood her deeply.