Reasons other then sexism. why Wonderwoman feels like a smaller part of the big3

[LordMikel]

For me I think Wonder Woman is given some great single moments (She got to kill Maxwell Lord, which we can debate between good that it happened in her comic vs it being a part of a big crossover event)) but she doesn't get the mass market storylines. Wars of the Gods should be considered a ground breaking Wonder Woman led storyline, and most consider it an "eh" and poorly done.

During the Nineties, Wonder Woman should have had both an Wonder Woman vs Aliens and Wonder Woman vs Predator. Xenomorphs land on Paradise Island. Marvel and Dc did crossovers. Batman/ Dardevil. Batman/ Spiderman. Wonder Woman and ... oh wait that never happened.
Wonder Woman died and no one knew. I was reading Justice League Dark, which she was starring in, and I learned she died in that. I'm not even sure what issue she did die in, looks like Infinite Frontier?

[WonderScott]

“Reasons other than sexism.”

Are we really going to have a conversation about Wonder Woman that doesn’t integrate the historic sexism and the prolific and intersectional sexism of today?

C’mon now… debating Diana’s feats of strength can be fun, but those things only supported, in a fun action/adventure/fantasy/sci-fi way, the original intention and purpose of the character to thematically champion equality and equity and reject hypocrisy and bigotry.

She clearly wasn’t a paragon of all of that when she started and how characters in her comics were depicted in the 40s, but the themes and ideas she represented are timeless and have helped us reckon with, and for some people, transcend aspects of bigotry, racism, sexism, sexual prejudice, gender prejudice, etc. over the course of the character’s evolving existence and message.

[Agent Z]

Did you read what I wrote?

What I said was "he wrote a lot of darker stories without hurting Diana". I didn't say he never hurt Diana, I said he wrote many dark stories where she didn't get hurt.

And your comment is totally irrelevant to the topic of what it means to write a dark story with Wonder Woman

That wasn't clear in your original comment. And I'd say it is relevant if we are talking about whether or Messner-Loebs wrote dark stories in which Diana did or did not get hurt.

[Agent Z]

That has nothing to do with the writer. That's Mike Deodato Jr's art.

I'm pretty sure Messner-Loebs had some control over how the art came out. And like I said, he scripted a scene of Diana being bound and whipped.

William Messner Loebs wrote the best damn take on Diana's voice.

He was better than some, but I think calling him the best is overselling it. Especially given that this was the 90s which wasn't necessarily the best time for Diana's book save for a few saving graces. His run on The Flash was much better anyway.

[Alpha]

That wasn't clear in your original comment. And I'd say it is relevant if we are talking about whether or Messner-Loebs wrote dark stories in which Diana did or did not get hurt.

I mean I won't blame you for misreading, but you shouldn't assume things that aren't just to be contrarian. As far as it being relevant, this wasn't a discussion about Messner Loebs. This was about giving examples of darker stories. Criticizing him is fine, but it has nothing to do with any of the previous topics.

I'm pretty sure Messner-Loebs had some control over how the art came out. And like I said, he scripted a scene of Diana being bound and whipped.

Oh god, so now we are going to ignore all the great writing because it's attached to a sexist artist? That run humanized Diana like never before, showed all the humor, adventurous spirit, creativity, empathy, courage, ambition, dedication, edginess in her. But none of that great works matters because the artist he was working on exploited the female body?

What a joke

He was better than some, but I think calling him the best is overselling it. Especially given that this was the 90s which wasn't necessarily the best time for Diana's book save for a few saving graces. His run on The Flash was much better anyway.

I didn't say he had the best run, I said he had the best voice for Diana. All of her defining personality traits shine more than ever in his stories. Tell me one writer that did something he couldn't do when writing her voice?

Only Marston and Greg Rucka came close

[Agent Z]

I mean I won't blame you for misreading, but you shouldn't assume things that aren't just to be contrarian. As far as it being relevant, this wasn't a discussion about Messner Loebs. This was about giving examples of darker stories. Criticizing him is fine, but it has nothing to do with any of the previous topics.

I only brought it up because you mentioned Messner-Loebs in the first place.

Oh god, so now we are going to ignore all the great writing because it's attached to a sexist artist? That run humanized Diana like never before, showed all the humor, adventurous spirit, creativity, empathy, courage, ambition, dedication, edginess in her. But none of that great works matters because the artist he was working on exploited the female body?

The writing wasn't all that special to begin with, which unfortunately means that it isn't enough to get past the art for a lot of people. Even with a better artist, I think his run would simply be considered okay. Other writers have done better than him in this regard, even in just one or two of these aspects. At best, he had some interesting ideas that weren't well developed. And to keep it somewhat on topic, Messner-Loebs's writing comes with some sexism itself.

I didn't say he had the best run, I said he had the best voice for Diana. All of her defining personality traits shine more than ever in his stories. Tell me one writer that did something he couldn't do when writing her voice?

Perez, Jiminez, Simone, Bardugo, Rucka, Cloonan, hell even Azzarello all surpass him easily. To say nothing of their stories being mostly better written and them being good at writing other interesting characters for Diana to bounce off of (Artemis didn't get any interesting development until Byrne).

Edit: I didn't want to make this about Messner-Loebs' run. I just wanted to mention something I felt your comment had overlooked.

[Alpha]

I only brought it up because you mentioned Messner-Loebs in the first place.

I also mentioned Dr Psycho, gay content in Wonderverse, and Rucka. But you were the one that wanted to make some kind of critique of Artemis Requiem which wasn't a response to what I had stated about his work.

The writing wasn't all that special to begin with, which unfortunately means that it isn't enough to get past the art for a lot of people. Even with a better artist, I think his run would simply be considered okay. Other writers have done better than him in this regard, even in just one or two of these aspects. At best, he had some interesting ideas that weren't well developed. And to keep it somewhat on topic, Messner-Loebs's writing comes with some sexism itself.

Hell no. None of the writers you mentioned managed to write a 6 dimensional character the way Messner did. At most those writers showcase 3 or 4 aspects of Diana, and I would argue with much less quality. There are dozens of great character moments in the Messner Loebs run that each show a very unique aspect of Diana. Perez is a prime example of an Evangelical take on who Diana is. Jiminez is much the same. Simone is better than most, but still doesn't have all the variety that Messner Loebs brought to the table.

And Diana had so many supporting characters in that run with wildly different personalities so that comment about Artemis is pointless. Artemis was the least nuanced character in his run, but contrast that with all the other female characters Diana met throughout the previous issues.

The Messner Loebs run has one of the top 3 moments for each of these categories

Best written death in a Wonder Woman story
Best moment of revolutionary Diana
Best moment of Diana redeeming a villain
Best moment of Diana connecting to a normal woman
Best moment of Diana inspiring a young girl
Best moment of Diana scaring an enemy
Best moment of Diana having fun
Best dramatic moment between Diana and Hippolyta
Best moment of Diana challenging herself socially
Best moment of Diana challenging herself physically
Best moment of Diana being alone
Best moment of Diana feeling sorrow
Best moment of Diana being angry
Best moment of Diana being humble
Best moment of Diana feeling jealousy
Best moment of Diana being hipocritical
Best moment of Diana goofing off
Best moment of Diana making a friend
Best moment of Diana failing
Best moment of Diana feeling guilt
Best moment of Diana feeling desperation
Best moment of Diana as a teacher
Best moment of Diana being a maniac
Bets moment of Diana using divine intervention from a god
Best moment of Diana sacrificing herself
Best moment of Diana sacrificing someone else


We can debate whether the Top 1 moments for each of these cases was in his run, but the Top 3 for each of his categories has at least one moment from his run.

He didn't write the best plots, or the best worldbuilding, but he had the best character moments. Anybody that disagrees should read his run all over again and then you can tell me again that I'm wrong.


What was sexist about his run by the way?

[Agent Z]

You know what? Just forget it. Agree to disagree. I've derailed this thread enough.

[WonderLight789]

That has nothing to do with the writer. That's Mike Deodato Jr's art.

William Messner Loebs wrote the best damn take on Diana's voice. He understood her deeply.

I do not see it. His run was pretty meh to me.

[Alpha]

I do not see it. His run was pretty meh to me.

Read it again

[BiteTheBullet]

Read it again

I've read it twice. Once when the series came out, and then about half a year ago when I was rereading the series from Perez upwards. Very underwhelming. If you wanted to see a very watered down Diana powerwise, William Messner-Loebs would have been your go to writer. She had problems going up against Deathstroke. I mean, come on now. In her space arc, she seemed to be getting pushed around as well as thought bubbling to us how she couldn't take on the Daxamite. Great writing again.

If you like the stories with a weakened Diana, then his stories would have been the ones for you.

[Alpha]

I've read it twice. Once when the series came out, and then about half a year ago when I was rereading the series from Perez upwards. Very underwhelming. If you wanted to see a very watered down Diana powerwise, William Messner-Loebs would have been your go to writer. She had problems going up against Deathstroke. I mean, come on now. In her space arc, she seemed to be getting pushed around as well as thought bubbling to us how she couldn't take on the Daxamite. Great writing again.

If you like the stories with a weakened Diana, then his stories would have been the ones for you.

And again, all you mention is her power level. I was talking about all the character work he did.

Nevermind the scene where she is being dragged down by a black hole but still hangs on with the lasso while also saving three other people and herself

[BiteTheBullet]

And again, all you mention is her power level. I was talking about all the character work he did.

Nevermind the scene where she is being dragged down by a black hole but still hangs on with the lasso while also saving three other people and herself

Again, if a writer can't use her proper powerset while writing the story, then he should not have been hired in the first place. I love a good story, but if that story involves the writer downplaying the heroes abilities or just watering them down, then the story is not for me.

I am not sure why your mantra is always story first, powers be damned. Shouldn't a good writer be able to tell both a great story while utilizing the powerset she has to her full potential?

About the black hole, if that is super impressive to you, why was she jobbing out to Deathstroke? Maybe not outright losing, but that Deathstroke can actually be considered a fair match for her. At least to Messner-Loebs thinking. What about the Daxamite in which she outright says that she can't beat her (obviously she did, or you could say it was a tie)? I don't need to hear Diana tell us how she can't beat someone like the Daxamite, or in the League of One story. In my opinion, it tends to diminish her character.

Oh, and by the way since you accuse me of trolling you, I would think we are having a healthy conversation right now.

[BiteTheBullet]

Wrong post

[Stanlos]

For me the answer is in treatment. BATMAN has multiple Jim Lee multi-issue projects. Superman the 12 issue Jim Lee project. WW has ... no multi-issue Jim Lee supported project. They only did it for 2/3 with Batman getting a double dip (HUSH and that bizarre All Star, which reminds me...)

They also did not give her the All Star entry.

Things like that and outright denying superstar talent who've expressed interest an opportunity to support the book are reasons their commitment seems...questionable.