Reasons other then sexism. why Wonderwoman feels like a smaller part of the big3

[OopsIdiditagain]

Is Wonder Woman really aimed at women the same way people say Batman is with the male demographic?

Having a female lead and female characters =/= being aimed at women. Does Wonder Woman have the same chokehold on women franchises Sailor Moon, Barbie, or Winx Club have? Because like someone else said she is definitely an icon but Wonder Woman probably has the same fanbase as Batman's.

I just don't understand how Batman takes female fans away from Wonder Woman. Women and LGBT fans have shown time and time again that they can support multiple franchises.

Wonder Woman just feels smaller than Batman because there has been more effort put into Batman's franchise. Batman has the most sidekicks, the biggest rogue gallery, a laundry list of else worlds, and the most ongoing series right now. There are so many different takes on Batman, that there are probably very few ways left to explore him. The same can't be said for WW. Even though WW has a vibrant cast, lore and rogue gallery. It just hasn't been expanded the same way Batman's has been for a long time.

Though DC is taking the right steps now.

[Alpha]

Oh, and by the way since you accuse me of trolling you, I would think we are having a healthy conversation right now.

Yes I would this is a fair discussion. But my post wast about character work, and even though this thread isn't about that, I would still much rather discuss that.

As far as powers, I don't want Diana to be weak. I love seeing her do awesome stuff.

But I also love those stories regardless of how powerful she is shown to be, because they really are great examples of who Diana is, all dozens of things that make her fascinating as a person.

For me the answer is in treatment. BATMAN has multiple Jim Lee multi-issue projects. Superman the 12 issue Jim Lee project. WW has ... no multi-issue Jim Lee supported project. They only did it for 2/3 with Batman getting a double dip (HUSH and that bizarre All Star, which reminds me...)

They also did not give her the All Star entry.

Things like that and outright denying superstar talent who've expressed interest an opportunity to support the book are reasons their commitment seems...questionable.

Personally I never would have wanted Jim Lee to draw a Wonder Woman book. Look at how freaking meek and skinny he drew her compared to Superman.



But I do wish they had invested in more elseworlds and miniseries. Neil Gaiman should have written a Wonder Woman mini series or Graphic Novel by now.

Hopefully they will give Steve Orlando a miniseries with one of the superstar artists, and give Amy Reeder a Graphic Novel for Young Age that can also work as a pitch for a WW tv show.

[Confuzzled]

So can WW. Those characters are not more popular than or successful than her.

Not individually maybe but together they are, which gives the Batverse the edge over WW.

The point is WW's supporting cast and villains have to be pushed proportionately to her for people to care about the Wonderverse as a whole vs. WW as an icon by herself.

[Stanlos]

Again, if a writer can't use her proper powerset while writing the story, then he should not have been hired in the first place. I love a good story, but if that story involves the writer downplaying the heroes abilities or just watering them down, then the story is not for me.

I am not sure why your mantra is always story first, powers be damned. Shouldn't a good writer be able to tell both a great story while utilizing the powerset she has to her full potential?

About the black hole, if that is super impressive to you, why was she jobbing out to Deathstroke? Maybe not outright losing, but that Deathstroke can actually be considered a fair match for her. At least to Messner-Loebs thinking. What about the Daxamite in which she outright says that she can't beat her (obviously she did, or you could say it was a tie)? I don't need to hear Diana tell us how she can't beat someone like the Daxamite, or in the League of One story. In my opinion, it tends to diminish her character.

Oh, and by the way since you accuse me of trolling you, I would think we are having a healthy conversation right now.

To be fair to Bill, he was given editorial directive to go as far away from Perez as possible. He literally rebooted the character. Different origin. Different mechanics for the gear. Different origin for the Amazons. He was interested in WW as a kid learning independence from mom. The character work was exquisite especially the femme family she created and he totally nailed her mastery of strategy and tactics and her desire to rehabilitate her foes.

But I can see how the reduction strength and speed could be off-putting. But he added so much in terms of skills, Amazon magicks, stealth and details about her combat proclivities and aptitudes that it still held a lot of Wonder.

[Gaius]

For me the answer is in treatment. BATMAN has multiple Jim Lee multi-issue projects. Superman the 12 issue Jim Lee project. WW has ... no multi-issue Jim Lee supported project. They only did it for 2/3 with Batman getting a double dip (HUSH and that bizarre All Star, which reminds me...)

They also did not give her the All Star entry.

Things like that and outright denying superstar talent who've expressed interest an opportunity to support the book are reasons their commitment seems...questionable.

Lee said I believe last year or so he'd still like to do something WW related but I wouldn't bet on it. Can't remember the last time Lee did consistent interiors for a project.

[BiteTheBullet]

To be fair to Bill, he was given editorial directive to go as far away from Perez as possible. He literally rebooted the character. Different origin. Different mechanics for the gear. Different origin for the Amazons. He was interested in WW as a kid learning independence from mom. The character work was exquisite especially the femme family she created and he totally nailed her mastery of strategy and tactics and her desire to rehabilitate her foes.

But I can see how the reduction strength and speed could be off-putting. But he added so much in terms of skills, Amazon magicks, stealth and details about her combat proclivities and aptitudes that it still held a lot of Wonder.

You certainly got alot more out of Messner-Loebs than I did. I'm sorry but I realize now that it isn't a wonder to me anymore why I didn't like the Loeb run. I was on the verge of quitting the comic at the time, but Byrne came on shortly afterwords and at the time he was a favorite of mine so I continued on. His run was uneven at best, the same with his artwork.

If Byrne had continued the watered down version from Loeb, I would have quit the series. I didn't want to see her pre-Perez levels of powers. I'm kind of shocked that Loeb didn't have her glide on air currents.

I certainly did not get these combat proclivities and aptitudes that you suggest. If it wasn't for Mike Deodato, I doubt her sales would not have been as high as they were during his run. His art alone is what kept her sales higher than it would have been in my opinion.

How Deathstroke is a fair match for Diana is beyond me.

[DochaDocha]

Personally I never would have wanted Jim Lee to draw a Wonder Woman book. Look at how freaking meek and skinny he drew her compared to Superman.

Not sure I'd describe this as "meek." IMO his Diana is athletic-looking enough. Superman's supposed to be as massive as a circus strongman, but I don't think there was an original intent to make Wonder Woman as comparatively massive, or have the roided up look like an American Gladiator. If anything, give her slightly broader shoulders, but she doesn't have to (and maybe even shouldn't) look like a body builder.

Here's a super successful, world-class athlete in Alex Morgan. In this pic, she's carrying more muscle than Gal Gadot. I think this is something in the ballpark of what WW should look like, whether on-screen or on-panel.

[OopsIdiditagain]

Not sure I'd describe this as "meek." IMO his Diana is athletic-looking enough. Superman's supposed to be as massive as a circus strongman, but I don't think there was an original intent to make Wonder Woman as comparatively massive, or have the roided up look like an American Gladiator. If anything, give her slightly broader shoulders, but she doesn't have to (and maybe even shouldn't) look like a body builder.

Here's a super successful, world-class athlete in Alex Morgan. In this pic, she's carrying more muscle than Gal Gadot. I think this is something in the ballpark of what WW should look like, whether on-screen or on-panel.

Agreed, Jim Lee's take on her matches a lot of Olympic track and field athletes.

[BiteTheBullet]

Not sure I'd describe this as "meek." IMO his Diana is athletic-looking enough. Superman's supposed to be as massive as a circus strongman, but I don't think there was an original intent to make Wonder Woman as comparatively massive, or have the roided up look like an American Gladiator. If anything, give her slightly broader shoulders, but she doesn't have to (and maybe even shouldn't) look like a body builder.

Here's a super successful, world-class athlete in Alex Morgan. In this pic, she's carrying more muscle than Gal Gadot. I think this is something in the ballpark of what WW should look like, whether on-screen or on-panel.

To be fair with the Gal Gadot comparison, Gal is merely toned which was definitely a step up from where she started from. Alex Morgan could possibly compete in fitness contests.

I would have rather they went with a 'Alex Morgan' look by the way.

[Alpha]

Not sure I'd describe this as "meek." IMO his Diana is athletic-looking enough. Superman's supposed to be as massive as a circus strongman, but I don't think there was an original intent to make Wonder Woman as comparatively massive, or have the roided up look like an American Gladiator. If anything, give her slightly broader shoulders, but she doesn't have to (and maybe even shouldn't) look like a body builder.

That's a soccer player. Soccer players are supposed to have really strong legs, but not strong arms, since they don't use their arms for sport.

In the Marston era Diana was definitely drawn to be bigger than most women. But more than that, women weren't even supposed to look strong, much less be strong and attractive. Unfortunately even today most people don't think of strong women as attractive. And there are many in universe reasons why Clark shouldn't have many muscles and why Diana should be way more fit than him, but we don't need to get into that right. The point is that Jim Lee's take on Wonder Woman has the body of Paige Hathaway:
paige_hathaway_profile4.jpg

Which is a fit woman, but not strong at all.
Here are some examples of beautiful women that have the amazonian body that Diana should have:

Lisa Marie Asaro.jpg
Lisa Marie Asaro

Siân Evans.jpg
Siân Evans

[Alpha]

And the best model for Diana would in my opinion be Sara Sigmundsdottir, quite beautiful and really strong:

sara-sigmundsdottir.jpg
sara sigmundsdóttir 1.jpg
Mental-control-841x1024.jpg

[Alpha]

And the artists that have shown the best body type for Diana are these:

WW BC.jpgtumblr_osqs7dYdoR1qfrvhzo1_1280.jpgEyes gorgon.jpg

[DochaDocha]

That's a soccer player. Soccer players are supposed to have really strong legs, but not strong arms, since they don't use their arms for sport.

That's not how the modern-day athlete trains. The modern day athlete does full-body training and a lot of strength work. For instance, this is former 100m dash world champion and world record holder, Maurice Green:



And here's another famous soccer player you may have seen or heard of before:



At least in my head canon, I don't see Amazons in a weight room pumping iron. They do sporty things like running, gymnastics, sparring, etc., so I imagine them as athletic-looking with a lot of lean muscle instead of bulky.

To each one's own, though.

[Primal Slayer]

An actress is not going to be bulked up to look like an athlete. That's just now how Hollywood is or accepts female actors sadly. And even males have taken it to far with the superhero body.

[phonogram12]

An actress is not going to be bulked up to look like an athlete. That's just now how Hollywood is or accepts female actors sadly. And even males have taken it to far with the superhero body.

Both true, unfortunately. Most of the MCU guys have to dehydrate to borderline dangerous levels for their abs to be visible.