Reasons other then sexism. why Wonderwoman feels like a smaller part of the big3

[Mel Dyer]

It's 2022, and the Wonder Woman comic still hasn't got a narrative...like a consistently centralizing, on-going narrative, that anyone, outside our fandom, can understand.

Since, World War II, it hasn't had an established regular cast - usually five or so characters - an established archenemy or rogues gallery ..or an established setting, beyond that of her origin. Furthermore, the WW comic hasn't had the time and editorial consistency, of which narrative continuity is a part, ..to make the impact with readers, that the Batman and Superman comics As I see it, the Silver Age postwar Fifties was completely wasted on editor Robert Kanigher, who just didn't do the creative WORK on WW, which produced Batman and Superman, we're reading, today.

It's truly a shame that you can't rewind time, back to the 1950s, and retcon in about seven decades of kickass MYRINA BLACK stories, pitting Myrina against Diana and the present cast, with Mala joining them in Man's World, as Diana's quartermaster. Can you not imagine Jessica Walter's Gloria Marquez, revealed as Myrina, beating Lynda Carter's skinny butt, all over the TV, for four or five seasons? Three more seasons of Lynda's TV show, with Jessica, good sci-fi fantasy stories AND ..Dack Rambo as 'Siggy', might have raised Wonder Woman's fan-stock in the Silver and Bronze Ages. It would have established her, her archenemy and her cast of side-orders, as household names, and changed how we looked at her, forever.

Might a consistently badass supervillain, immortalized by Walter on the TV show, and one that shoved SUPER FRIENDS' Cheetah, out of the archenemy spotlight, have been a game-changer for the comic? Myrina, aside from being a quasi-historical personage, just straight-up thinks she should be ruling the world, through Grail or some other means, ..enough to do it with DARKSEID. Her brand of bizarre villainy, by now, having endured over half a century in WW comics, would have made her so much more sustainable an antagonist, than Cheetah, Circe or Atomia. Any half-decent writer could easily seat her at the villains’s roundtable, beside Luthor, Joker, Grodd and Sinestro, without raising a fan-eyebrow - like YES, bidge, you totally belong there...

With your too-fly subterranean lair and your griffin. Go, yuh sick bidge!

I'm sure Devastation, if referred to for seventy-some years, as DEVA, and with those cool powers, would also have worked, in that archenemy role, ..but, so far, Myrina, without any changes, is the only Wonder-villain, who's left me wanting more...Myrina? See how that works?

Comparatively speaking, when it comes to the Trinity, the supervillain really makes the superhero, ..and, in 2022, Diana doesn't have a consistently classic one. That hurts, but, most of you know it's the truth.

You can give it to sexism, the personal issues of Kanigher or whatever; the work isn't there.

[Alpha]

First of all I just wanna say that I respect you DochaDocha. I'm being critical and insistent but I think you have strong and worthy opinions. And I really do think all that I'm about to say about comics and socuety is more than fair

1) Though it's a lot less common, some people complain about male heroes' being too bulky. I think some time in the 90s male hero design got a little out of control and bodies became totally unrealistic, and a small population of fandom like to poke fun at it. Also, as I mentioned earlier about "natty or not" videos, some people look at the shirtless scenes of some superhero films and just shake their heads and say dude is pharmacologically-enhanced. Honestly, I do prefer heroes to look somewhat more natural. Ed McGuinness' Superman has its place, but it's hard for me to take it seriously. Bruce Timm's templates where Superman looks like he's wearing NFL shoulder pads is also a bit much for me.

But I'm not talking about Ed Mcguiness level. I'm talking about this:

How is Jason the standard muscled guy, while Diana is drawn like an instagram fitness model? They are brothers and she actually spent decades training with the peak fighters and athletes, Amazons.

I hate this about society and comics. When I show you beautiful bodybuilders people go straight to talking about them natting up, but if it was a male bodybuilder than wouldn't even be necessary to talk about. And while having male superheroes look like that is normal, having female superheroes look like that is TOO MUCH, and DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

2) Regarding your last two questions, I think that's just how the opinion cookie crumbled. We could easily flip your questions and say, "Why are you giving excuses why pictures of real-life, successful women don't look strong enough?" If you really wanted an answer from me personally, I'd say WW was created with the intent to be inhumanly powerful like Heracles and Hermes, but paradoxically not have an overly-androgenic look. That's how most of the artists drew her afterward. That's how the actresses who played her looked. Feel free to disagree; there's no right or wrong here.

The pictures I showed you are also of real life successful women. And you started talking about how the only reason they are that buff is because of artificial enhancements (which I doubt, but it's possible, but has nothing to do with Diana being a transgressive character and the peak of what a strong woman eould look like)

And is it just about opinions though? Seems to me to be about old fashioned beauty standards of what a women should and shouldn't look like. And I'm not saying you or anyone here is socially conservative, I'm saying that in this topic you are a normal person, and this is how regressive society still is about beauty standards.

Buff / feminine / beautiful aren't mutually exclusive. And why shouldn't Diana be what we've always asked of her, proof that women can be everything a man can be. Men incomics are buff. Why can't Diana be beautiful, feminine, and buff?

[Agent Z]

Have all of you guys seen Steve Trevor? Hercules? Achiles? Superman? Any random superhero. The male versions of Wonder Woman from other earths? Her dumb brother Jason.
How come people don't complain about them being too bulky, but everyone is giving excuses for the amazons to have little mass? Why are you all against strong women being beautiful and bulky?

Steve and Jason are not drawn as particularly bulky. At least not compared to Superman or Heracles.

Even Marston's Wonder Woman wasn't that much more muscular than most women. I even recall a scene where she fights another woman larger than her and says that size doesn't matter in a way that could somewhat be interpreted as body shaming.

[Alpha]

Steve and Jason are not drawn as bulky.

They are way buffer than Diana and most men I know. Look at the size of their arms, how broad their shoulders are, etc. Compare that to most male actors and you certainly would call them buff

Even Marston's Wonder Woman wasn't that much more muscular than most women. I even recall a scene where she fights another woman larger than her and says that size doesn't matter in a way that could somewhat be interpreted as body shaming.

I don't see you or anyone else making this argument for male characters. Superman looks way bigger than any dude I've seen in real life. But nobody says "he doesn't need muscles to be strong". People only say this about Wonder Woman (who actually lifts weighs and constantly trains) Supergirl, Carol Danvers.

[HestiasHearth]

Yeah but again, that's not the type if myscle you need to lift serious weights jn a serious manner. That's mostly just bare muscles and definition. She is still skinny as hell

I think that Jessica Biel's Blade3 body was amazing. That, or Angela Bassett's physique in What's Love Got To Do With would be, in my opinion, a perfect Wonder Woman movie body.

[Agent Z]

They are way buffer than Diana and most men I know. Look at the size of their arms, how broad their shoulders are, etc. Compare that to most male actors and you certainly would call them buff




I don't see you or anyone else making this argument for male characters. Superman looks way bigger than any dude I've seen in real life. But nobody says "he doesn't need muscles to be strong". People only say this about Wonder Woman (who actually lifts weighs and constantly trains) Supergirl, Carol Danvers.

There have been skinnier versions of Superman that drew little to no criticism. There are a number of superstrong male characters, especially in anime, who aren't very muscular and no one complains about that.

I doubt Wonder Woman not being buff is the reason why she's treated poorly by DC anyway.

[Alpha]

There have been skinnier versions of Superman that drew little to no criticism. There are a number of superstrong male characters, especially in anime, who aren't very muscular and no one complains about that.

I doubt Wonder Woman not being buff is the reason why she's treated poorly by DC anyway.

But nobody complains about the way Superman is drawn most of the time. Yet Everyone here seems to be against a trully buff Wonder Woman

And this is her being treated unfairily. There are many sexist things about her treatment over the decades, this is certainly one of them, and fans are surprisingly unbothered by how sexist beauty standards are today

[Agent Z]

But nobody complains about the way Superman is drawn most of the time. Yet Everyone here seems to be against a trully buff Wonder Woman

It doesn't seem like people are against it so much as they don't see it as necessary.

And this is her being treated unfairily.

How?

There are many sexist things about her treatment over the decades, this is certainly one of them, and fans are surprisingly unbothered by how sexist beauty standards are today

Diana being drawn as conventionally attractive isn't so much a sexist beauty standard as it is common for most superheroes, male and female alike. Which could be seen as a problem, but a different one altogether.

[Alpha]

How?

Her bother is drawn as muscular, toned and large, while she is drawn toned and skinny with barely any muscle at all, like a fitness model

Male heroes embody power while she just embodies fitness and looks much weaker.

Diana being drawn as conventionally attractive isn't so much a sexist beauty standard as it is common for most superheroes, male and female alike. Which could be seen as a problem, but a different one altogether.

These are sexist beauty standards, and since Diana is all about breaking traditional gender rules, it's pitiful that she is always drawn less powerful than almost any other man in comics.

[Agent Z]

Her bother is drawn as muscular, toned and large, while she is drawn toned and skinny with barely any muscle at all, like a fitness model

Male heroes embody power while she just embodies fitness and looks much weaker.



These are sexist beauty standards, and since Diana is all about breaking traditional gender rules, it's pitiful that she is always drawn less powerful than almost any other man in comics.

I'm more concerned with her being treated as weaker than them than how she is drawn.

I doubt any of that has anything to do with her physique. A more muscular Wonder Woman was beaten by Aquaman and needed to be saved by Steve Trevor. The issue with Jason is that he exists at all, not how much muscle he has compared to her.

[DochaDocha]

But I'm not talking about Ed Mcguiness level. I'm talking about this:

How is Jason the standard muscled guy, while Diana is drawn like an instagram fitness model? They are brothers and she actually spent decades training with the peak fighters and athletes, Amazons.

I hate this about society and comics. When I show you beautiful bodybuilders people go straight to talking about them natting up, but if it was a male bodybuilder than wouldn't even be necessary to talk about. And while having male superheroes look like that is normal, having female superheroes look like that is TOO MUCH, and DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.



The pictures I showed you are also of real life successful women. And you started talking about how the only reason they are that buff is because of artificial enhancements (which I doubt, but it's possible, but has nothing to do with Diana being a transgressive character and the peak of what a strong woman eould look like)

And is it just about opinions though? Seems to me to be about old fashioned beauty standards of what a women should and shouldn't look like. And I'm not saying you or anyone here is socially conservative, I'm saying that in this topic you are a normal person, and this is how regressive society still is about beauty standards.

Buff / feminine / beautiful aren't mutually exclusive. And why shouldn't Diana be what we've always asked of her, proof that women can be everything a man can be. Men incomics are buff. Why can't Diana be beautiful, feminine, and buff?

Appreciate the respect given and hope to reciprocate. I also sympathize with your takes here.

In regard to bodybuilders, men and women, the sport/culture has been plagued by PEDs. Whether it's Arnold, Ronnie Coleman, etc., there's an implicit understanding that so many of them are not natural. I mean, yes, they have incredible genetics and they work like hell in the gym, but what so many of them are achieving isn't naturally attainable. And actors? Well, they don't test them for PEDs, so if taking them helps you land a million-dollar role, why the heck not? So when I say something that's admittedly kind of condescending about the look of bodybuilders, it's because a lot of bad apples spoiled the bunch for me. Interestingly, they made a new division of bodybuilding competitions called "natural look" or something like that because bodybuilding has gone off the rails as far as the extremes people have gone to shape their bodies. Yikes. Also, the sporting world has turned such a blind eye to PED usage throughout the decades that whatever number of athletes who tested positive for drugs in the past was a small fraction of the real number of athletes actually using, and drug testing is always going to be a couple steps behind the cheaters so many athletes today are still doping.

I think you're not wrong about societal norms and standards and how they dictate how characters look on panel and on screen, but I think there's more to it than just that. I have some opinions that I'm sure are pretty controversial, so I'd rather not go into it here.

I'll end my end of this side-topic on this note: it's just a lot easier for males to get bulky than females. According to one source, a healthy adult male can have anywhere from four to ~115-120 times the amount of free flowing testosterone in their blood streams. On average, if a healthy male and a healthy female of similar age both started working out with the goal of adding lean muscle, the female is going to have a much harder time of bulking and maintaining. So that first panel you posted? I think that's something close to what the average "fit" male looks like and the average "fit" female, and the artist is just trying to mimic every day. The second pic? Dude is on gear.

[SonOfBaldwin]

You certainly got alot more out of Messner-Loebs than I did. I'm sorry but I realize now that it isn't a wonder to me anymore why I didn't like the Loeb run. I was on the verge of quitting the comic at the time, but Byrne came on shortly afterwords and at the time he was a favorite of mine so I continued on. His run was uneven at best, the same with his artwork.

If Byrne had continued the watered down version from Loeb, I would have quit the series. I didn't want to see her pre-Perez levels of powers. I'm kind of shocked that Loeb didn't have her glide on air currents.

I certainly did not get these combat proclivities and aptitudes that you suggest. If it wasn't for Mike Deodato, I doubt her sales would not have been as high as they were during his run. His art alone is what kept her sales higher than it would have been in my opinion.

How Deathstroke is a fair match for Diana is beyond me.

I didn't come to appreciate the Messner-Loebs run until almost a decade after it was done. I hated it, to be frank. But now, I see the elements of subversion and homage to the core of the character intended by Marston that Stanlos is referring to.

[DochaDocha]

@Alpha,

Your inbox is full, but wanted to say thanks and nice having a civil discussion. Looking forward to the next discussion.

[BiteTheBullet]

Her bother is drawn as muscular, toned and large, while she is drawn toned and skinny with barely any muscle at all, like a fitness model

Male heroes embody power while she just embodies fitness and looks much weaker.



These are sexist beauty standards, and since Diana is all about breaking traditional gender rules, it's pitiful that she is always drawn less powerful than almost any other man in comics.

I think anyone considering herself to be a fitness model would take exception to your statement that they are just skinny with barely any muscle. You are describing Gal Gadot's physique versus an actual fitness model competitor.

365a1f8f424890f41bd40de597e2997a.jpg versus Project1.jpg

There is no way you are going to tell me that a typical fitness model barely has any muscle.

[Alpha]

I think anyone considering herself to be a fitness model would take exception to your statement that they are just skinny with barely any muscle. You are describing Gal Gadot's physique versus an actual fitness model competitor.

365a1f8f424890f41bd40de597e2997a.jpg versus Project1.jpg

There is no way you are going to tell me that a typical fitness model barely has any muscle.

That girl almost looks like Michael fassbender (even he has a little more mass) or like these other guys, and I definitely wouldn't say either of them have many muscles, their just barely have any fat and a little bit of muscle