Reasons other then sexism. why Wonderwoman feels like a smaller part of the big3

[Alpha]

@Alpha,

Your inbox is full, but wanted to say thanks and nice having a civil discussion. Looking forward to the next discussion.

Oh yeah I gotta empty it. Thanks for all the interesting conversations

[BiteTheBullet]

That girl almost looks like Michael fassbender (even he has a little more mass) or like these other guys, and I definitely wouldn't say either of them have many muscles, their just barely have any fat and a little bit of muscle

I doubt anyone is going to win or convince the other person what they want Wonder Woman to look like. If some say Gina Carano, then others will say she is an awful human being, how can want her as Wonder Woman. If some say Jessica Biel, others like you I think, says she is too skinny. As far as Hollywood actresses go, Jessica was buff in the Blade movie. Or, if we go even farther than that and take some of people that you have shown us images of, others will think we are going way too much in the female bodybuilding direction.

On another point that you were arguing, if Superman is drawn with a typical bodybuilders physique, then why isn't his counterparts like Powergirl, Supergirl or even Mary Marvel drawn that way? Makes no sense, kind of like how comics, in general, don't make much sense.

Most male heroes are drawn with extreme muscular physiques and most female heroes are drawn with supermodel physiques, although possible just a touch thicker. Sounds like if we, the public, have a problem with this, then the best bet is to boycott the comics that doesn't represent these heroes the way we want them to. Won't happen, at least not on my end.

[Alpha]

Nah it won't do any good for me to stop supporting Wonder Woman stories is they are good. When Diana fails DC blames the character, not the approach. So decreased sales will just lead them to give her less stories, instead of better content

[OopsIdiditagain]

That's a soccer player. Soccer players are supposed to have really strong legs, but not strong arms, since they don't use their arms for sport.

In the Marston era Diana was definitely drawn to be bigger than most women. But more than that, women weren't even supposed to look strong, much less be strong and attractive. Unfortunately even today most people don't think of strong women as attractive. And there are many in universe reasons why Clark shouldn't have many muscles and why Diana should be way more fit than him, but we don't need to get into that right. The point is that Jim Lee's take on Wonder Woman has the body of Paige Hathaway:
Attachment 123022

Which is a fit woman, but not strong at all.
Here are some examples of beautiful women that have the amazonian body that Diana should have:

Attachment 123023
Lisa Marie Asaro

Attachment 123024
Siân Evans

Paige has the same body as olympic athletes.


Why are body builders the standard for fitness when steroids is a big issue for both male and female bodybuilders and they don't even have the same kind of doping restrictions other athletes get?

[Alpha]

Paige has the same body as olympic athletes.


Why are body builders the standard for fitness when steroids is a big issue for both male and female bodybuilders and they don't even have the same kind of doping restrictions other athletes get?

Do you ask the same question of male superheroes? Should Hercules, Jason, Batman, Superman, Captain Marvel, Aquaman, Steve Rogers, Steve Trevor, look like those women you posted?

And those olympic athletes aren't training for arm strength, and they still are larger than Paige.

[OopsIdiditagain]

Do you ask the same question of male superheroes? Should Hercules, Jason, Batman, Superman, Captain Marvel, Aquaman, Steve Rogers, Steve Trevor, look like those women you posted?

And those olympic athletes aren't training for arm strength, and they still are larger than Paige.

Well I mentioned both male and female bodybuilders so yes. Their arms are not larger, they are just as toned as Paige's. Male superheroes aren't being drawn like bodybuilders anymore and more like boxers, basketball players or track runners. Diana is the same.

I'm more irked by the digs at instagram models' and maybe even supermodels' atheleticism, when most bodybuilders are instagram models these days and bodybuilding has the same kind of health issues that all the other aesthetic/modeling industries have. Like even if Diana's design was based on Ronda Rousey, Serena Williams or Liz Cambage (like Artemis is) she would still look meek according to that standard.

[Alpha]

What superheroes are drawn like basketball players? Look at the covers for the main comics events right now. This is the standard representation of superheroes even today. Guys are huge. Women are toned but quite skinny. No mass


Shazam and Yara Flor both have similar supernatural super strength but are portrayed with drastically different body types, opposite size. Meanwhile Hal Jordan looks huge even though he isn't supposd to be particularly strong, while Jessica Cruz is still skinny and toned



Thor and Carol Danvers both have similar cosmic super strength but are portrayed with drastically different body types, opposite size. Meanwhile Cyclops looks huge even though he isn't supposed to be particularly strong, while Storm is still skinny and toned

[DochaDocha]

What superheroes are drawn like basketball players?

There are a handful of basketball players who are yoked, like LeBron James, Giannis Antetokoumnpo (one of his apt nicknames is the "Greek God"), Anthony Davis, and Dwight Howard. I'm not going to post their pics, but if you search them make sure you look at recent pics because they all put on a lot of muscle since they entered the NBA. Of course, most superheroes are well short of 6'8" to 6'11" so they don't quite look the same because NBA players, on average, have abnormally long arms that would wreck the Vitruvian man model.

Edit: Since I mentioned Giannis' nickname, I'd be remiss if I didn't also mention Dwight Howard insisted on calling himself "Superman" and used the Superman theme several times in dunk contests.

[OopsIdiditagain]

What superheroes are drawn like basketball players? Look at the covers for the main comics events right now. This is the standard representation of superheroes even today. Guys are huge. Women are toned but quite skinny. No mass

Shazam and Yara Flor both have similar supernatural super strength but are portrayed with drastically different body types, opposite size. Meanwhile Hal Jordan looks huge even though he isn't supposd to be particularly strong, while Jessica Cruz is still skinny and toned


Thor and Carol Danvers both have similar cosmic super strength but are portrayed with drastically different body types, opposite size. Meanwhile Cyclops looks huge even though he isn't supposed to be particularly strong, while Storm is still skinny and toned

Cyclops, Dick, Jon, and Wally are built like basketball players. They are toned but lean.


The rest of them look like either boxers or rugby players.

Even if Carol had bigger shoulders, arms, waist, and legs she would not be as muscular as Thor. Same goes for Yara and Shazam. Just look at the difference between male and female rugby teams


They are buff but their muscles are not as defined as the men's.


My main issue is the differences are being defined as meek vs buff when it's really about body types.

The difference between Jessica Beil(in blade), Paige, Lisa Marie Asaro is body types. Because all of those women are skinny, all of them have flat stomachs and toned muscles. Lisa just happens to have a completely different body type.

[OopsIdiditagain]

There are a handful of basketball players who are yoked, like LeBron James, Giannis Antetokoumnpo (one of his apt nicknames is the "Greek God"), Anthony Davis, and Dwight Howard. I'm not going to post their pics, but if you search them make sure you look at recent pics because they all put on a lot of muscle since they entered the NBA. Of course, most superheroes are well short of 6'8" to 6'11" so they don't quite look the same because NBA players, on average, have abnormally long arms that would wreck the Vitruvian man model.

Edit: Since I mentioned Giannis' nickname, I'd be remiss if I didn't also mention Dwight Howard insisted on calling himself "Superman" and used the Superman theme several times in dunk contests.

Notice how they're mostly MVPs, Kawhi, Iman Shumpert, and Tristan Thompson. They draw Jon like he's on the NBA draft.

[John Venus]

Most superheroes have idealized figures. Most superhero artists have been straight men who tend to draw female characters in the aesthetic which they prefer.

Instead of looking to replace one narrow idealized figure with another idealized figure, let's look at it more practically.

Here is a photo series by Howard Schatz and Beverly Ornstein from the 2012 London Olympics showcasing different body types of women and notice how everyone has different build depending on the sport they play:



Link

This kind of variety is also what you would expect from the Amazons as well.

But looking at Diana specifically, given that her signature moves are using her lasso and deflecting bullets with her bracelets which involves the use of her arms meaning her arms should be significantly toned.

Thus the basketball player, Hepthalthon runner, vollyeball players, the adventure racer and the boxer have the body types that fits WW's character the most.

[Primal Slayer]

I will say that Zack/Patty did a good job in showing a variety of Amazons.

[Alpha]

But looking at Diana specifically, given that her signature moves are using her lasso and deflecting bullets with her bracelets which involves the use of her arms meaning her arms should be significantly toned.

Thus the basketball player, Hepthalthon runner, vollyeball players, the adventure racer and the boxer have the body types that fits WW's character the most.

Diana is a fighter with a focus on subduing the enemy through superior strength and control. Shs is a wrestler. So she should have the body type of a wrestler (which means buff and minimum flexibility. At minimum she would have the body type of a top swimmer:





But again, this is the minimum, she should be even stronger since swimmers need to put on the least amount of weight for quicker movement through water. What they do have is plenty of strength and mobility since they train their whole body to the max. As a wrestler Diana would want more weight in order to use it to control the opponent.

[Primal Slayer]

She's a divine being imbued w/strength.

[Alpha]

She's a divine being imbued w/strength.

As is Shazam and this is what his body always looks like



(The whole shazam family is a great example of how sexist female superheroes bodies are compared to the male bodies. All the men are drawn like huge bodybuilders, while the shazam women, not so much).