Rereading Nick Spencer's Amazing Spider-Man

[bob.schoonover]

While I dislike OMD, I'm in the camp of wanting more Mephisto. If you're going to make his deal this notorious game-changer, then go all the way and make him very important to the mythos so OMD has more of a justifiable impact. It seems those who don't have a problem with OMD want it to never be anything more than a means to an end, to serve editorial's means of getting from here to there and then to ignore it...but a contingent of fans are always looking for a bigger, bolder story to splash their cash on, with raised stakes. Isn't it better to make OMD a more 'OK' read by giving it reason to exist beyond it's purpose?

By tying Mephisto to the Osborns, Spencer's era makes OMD just that, something you can read knowing there's even more to it, that Mephisto's intervention wasn't just a random notion, that it's been part of a long game he's been playing this whole time with Peter, a man destined to conceive the child that will defeat him. It makes you question also why Gwen was killed by Osborn...could it it have been her and Peter's child that could have stepped up to Mephisto?

So much rides on OMD to this day, and so much more can be made of Mephisto's involvement. That's what readers ought to demand of their comics and their stories. Something more.

More generally, if you look at Spencer's run more as him laying down exactly what he thinks the spider mythos should be within the confines of what editorial will allow than him telling good stories (not to say he didn't, but just stay with me), then the Osborn deal makes a lot of sense. OMD is here to stay, let's contextualize it. Kraven's resurrection was bad, let's undo it but leave "a Kraven" for future stories. Teresa shouldn't be a confirmed Parker, let's make it muddy. Peter didn't earn his doctorate, let's get rid of it (in a laughably stupid way and with entirely silly results). Sins Past was oh so very bad, let's make it part of an evil plot and undo the worst of it.

[Mister Mets]

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #73:

The big reveal is that Kindred is not Harry Osborn, but instead Gabriel and Sarah Stacy, the twins from "Sins Past." This twist seemed a bit out of nowhere since the Stacy Twins hadn't been mentioned at all in the rest of the run. It is largely unfair to readers sorting out a mystery to require familiarity with stories that were published in a different writer's run and generally considered god-awful. But I get why Nick Spencer did it. I can understand that he doesn't want to explicitly reference them until the issue in which he retcons as not being the children of Norman Osborn and Gwen Stacy, but instead being modified clones. And while they haven't been mentioned in the run, the Chameleon Conspiracy did build on Chameleon's work making it seem that Peter's parents had come back from the dead, so it's a retcon that fits what's already been established.

The Kindred reveal isn't automatically bad. It isn't worth all the set-up, and might have been satisfying at the end of a twelve-issue mega-arc, or if Kindred had popped up in one or two earlier TPB length stories. The execution still isn't great. This is a major issue, the big reveal to a mystery that dominated the series for four years and the penultimate issue of Nick Spencer's run, so it's a red flag that it's got three artists which does suggest that the final product is rushed. I'm sure the artists had major limits imposed on them, so this likely isn't them at their best, but it's also not on the level of what should be expected from a standard issue of Amazing Spider-Man, let alone a major storyline. In the early 2000s Marvel had a reputation for allowing some major stories to come out with delays in the name of artistic consistency so that a creative team can finish the complete story, and they've largely abandoned that. This issue shows how that can be a mistake.
D+

[Mister Mets]

While I dislike OMD, I'm in the camp of wanting more Mephisto. If you're going to make his deal this notorious game-changer, then go all the way and make him very important to the mythos so OMD has more of a justifiable impact. It seems those who don't have a problem with OMD want it to never be anything more than a means to an end, to serve editorial's means of getting from here to there and then to ignore it...but a contingent of fans are always looking for a bigger, bolder story to splash their cash on, with raised stakes. Isn't it better to make OMD a more 'OK' read by giving it reason to exist beyond it's purpose?

By tying Mephisto to the Osborns, Spencer's era makes OMD just that, something you can read knowing there's even more to it, that Mephisto's intervention wasn't just a random notion, that it's been part of a long game he's been playing this whole time with Peter, a man destined to conceive the child that will defeat him. It makes you question also why Gwen was killed by Osborn...could it it have been her and Peter's child that could have stepped up to Mephisto?

So much rides on OMD to this day, and so much more can be made of Mephisto's involvement. That's what readers ought to demand of their comics and their stories. Something more.

I think that some comic books are going to be bad, and it's generally a good idea to ignore those, so that newer readers have less reasons to pick up that stuff.

The main exceptions would be if someone has a good idea to build on something that wasn't that great initially. For example, the story introducing the Spider-Queen was critically trashed, but Slott found a use for her in Spider-Island, which was one of his most popular stories.

There's something a bit masochistic in intentionally referencing bad stories, to reward fans for putting up with it in the first place. That seems like an example of sunk costs fallacy to me, or an effort to punish Marvel and readers for telling a story that some people didn't like.

I don't hate everything to do with One More Day (I'll likely write up the last issue tomorrow morning) in Nick Spencer's run, but it's way too much. How long have Dr. Strange and Mephisto been at the casino?

Connecting Mephisto to Norman Osborn's origin also strikes me as a bad idea on multiple levels. It taints an A-list villain with One More Day. It makes him more supernatural.

There is a meta-question about whether Mephisto made his inevitable downfall happen. He's worried he might be taken down by the daughter of Peter and MJ. So he manipulates Norman Osborn into becoming a supervillain and killing Gwen Stacy, which brings Peter and MJ closer together. It's not worth the change to the larger mythos.

[Webhead]

I still think original-Harry's corpse still having hair after being down to the bones is so dumb and makes me cringe. I understand the dramatic impact is preferable to Carlie just saying she ran a DNA test or whatever, but when you get to it it's absolutely baffling.

[Xwho]

The A.i Harry was Kindred and in control of the stacy's until the last issue of Nick's run. It could be interesting to see what may have happened to A.I Harry and what he will do next as well as what may happen with A.I Norman.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

Oh, I remember writing about the Kindred Saga earlier this year. I hated it, hated it, hated it.

[Huntsman Spider]

The A.i Harry was Kindred and in control of the stacy's until the last issue of Nick's run. It could be interesting to see what may have happened to A.I Harry and what he will do next as well as what may happen with A.I Norman.

Pretty much, and technically, the Osborn A.I. was a fusion of Harry and Norman in their Green Goblin days, not to mention coopted by Mephisto to use the "Stacy Twins" as bioengineered meat puppets.

Oh, I remember writing about the Kindred Saga earlier this year. I hated it, hated it, hated it.

Understandable.

[Mister Mets]

Final issue time.

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #74:

To the extent possible I went into this with an open mind. I've got my preferences, but I did reread the entire run and can appreciate elements of the set up, as well as the lore that Nick Spencer built on to get to some of his big moments.

The idea that Kindred is part of the projects Harry set up before he died works. There's a valid explanation to one of the discrepancies in the Harry Osborn saga: Why didn't he warn Peter about all the plans he had set in motion before he died? Kindred being a variation of Harry Osborn does make the initial reveal a bit more satisfying, so that Marvel's not going for a swerve for the sake of it. It didn't need to be a four year long demon-centric mega-arc but that's a different question.
Killing Harry, or good clone Harry, is cheap. It mainly takes away toys from future writers. A part of why this run leaves a bit of a sour taste, especially in all the Kindred chapters, is that it seems to be for people who hated One More Day and would pay hundreds of dollars for Marvel to apologize. Part of that is putting some A-list returned villains (Harry, Kraven) and that just didn't feel like a worthwhile tradeoff. We switched Kraven with another son, and really made the inevitable return of Norman Osborn more depressing, when Harry sacrifices himself to save his dad. This bigger story about Harry's legacy barely shows any scenes of Peter and Harry, until this final fight, so there isn't a real sense of why Harry matters to Peter.

The Norman/ Mephisto connection is a big misstep, elevating the significance of One More Day to the mythos. I get the rationale for something like that, to try to make a story that's despised more significant so that fans who bought it would be happy with the purchase. My view is that if a story is bad, we should try to make it less significant.

I can't complain about the revelation that Mephisto wanted to prevent Spider-Man and Mary Jane from having a daughter who would be a threat. It's something I thought Marvel could do. But it didn't need to be a subplot for 15 issues (from the end of #60 to now.) It raises the question of what Doctor Strange been up to for the course of multiple Spider-Man stories; doesn't he have his own title? It's also unsatisfying to have a guest starr's battle for Peter's soul where he doesn't know anything, and Doctor Strange doesn't make any effort to warn him.

There are a lot of artists here and it's not an Amazing Spider-Man #800 (or #850) situation where multiple prominent artists join to depict different chapters in a pivotal showdown. It seems to be a rushjob to get a major comic book out on time, which is not a wise idea, especially for the finale of a nearly 100 issue run (more than 100 issues if you include Superior Foes) where sticking the landing would elevate earlier material. I don't think this story sticks the landing. There's a scene where MJ helps inspire and save Peter, which doesn't land for me because the art feels off. Say what you will about One More Day or One Moment in Time, but Joe Quesada and Paolo Rivera are considered in-demand artists.

A lot of it repeats beats from earlier stories. Spider-Man gets pummeled by the Kindreds and saved by an ally's sacrifice, and we just saw that in Sinister War.

The back-ups are fine. I like Peter Parker's encounter with someone who did not have a great relationship with Uncle Ben, as well as the recap and the "Beyond" preview. Incidentally, I think the Beyond run ended badly with the decision to try to make Ben Reilly a bad guy but at least it didn't go on as long.
D

[your_name_here]

It’s weird because the Kindred/Mephisto/OMD stuff doesn’t really fall apart until that last issue. And even then - it hints to something else until it doesn’t.
I’m all down for the twins being Kindred, and possessed by a Harry from hell kind of thing. It worked nicely and, in my opinion, was what Spencer was going to do to retcon /address Sins Past and OMD. But then suddenly the Kindreds AREN’T Harry, and Strange isn’t fighting for Peters soul. It’s all abit odd.
As someone who loved the setup, it was disappointing. But more a disappointing in the way it clearly seems this isn’t what was intended from the start.

[Mister Mets]

You raised good points, even if I did generally like those issues when they first came out. As for the livestreaming suit, I figured the Chameleon gave Norah Winters the resources to have it made for Spider-Man, given their secret alliance some issues back, though it was disappointing that aside from Spider-Man ultimately ditching the suit for his own reasons, he never did discover that connection between Norah and Chameleon. Could have been pretty epic on a personal level, not just in terms of Peter's reaction, but also Jonah's, seeing that someone who claimed herself as his heir and successor in the modern digital age had even less journalistic scruples than himself at his Spidey-hating worst. After all, Jonah might have created a few of those villains himself or at least bankrolled their creation, but he was doing so out of the belief that he was fighting a greater evil in Spider-Man, whereas Norah just seemed to care only about getting big scoops.

I wonder if he was planning to do anything with that.

Because there are a handful of dropped plots.

The King's Ransom arc ended with the return of the Rose, but we don't see him do anything.

Ned Leeds was working for someone when he was believed dead.



Mysterio alluded to having a bigger role to play during the events of Sinister War. Presumably his big role wasn't just to be one of many bad guys punched conscious in the final issue.



Mysterio does seem to know about One More Day and Mephisto's role in Spidey's life, which will be interesting for other writers to navigate.

[Kevinroc]

Peter's plan to propose also doesn't happen without explanation. It was just quietly dropped.

[TinkerSpider]

Mysterio does not know about One More Day and Mephisto's role in Spidey's life, which will be interesting for other writers to navigate.

I think you mean Mysterio DOES know? Or at least, that's how I read that panel.

[Frontier]

It kind of amazes me how little Mysterio knowing Peter's identity has mattered. Or that MJ willingly worked on a fraudulent movie with him and never told Peter until it was, like, way too late.

[Mister Mets]

Peter's plan to propose also doesn't happen without explanation. It was just quietly dropped.

Yeah, he was going to propose in Sinister War, and didn't do anything for the final pages where Doctor Strange is talking about true love.

With Zeb Wells breaking them up, there wasn't much reason not to do a proposal story.

On a side note, I keep having the feeling that the Wells/ Romita run kicked off immediately after Nick Spencer left, so I keep forgetting about Beyond.

I think you mean Mysterio DOES know? Or at least, that's how I read that panel.

Yeah, my bad.

It kind of amazes me how little Mysterio knowing Peter's identity has mattered. Or that MJ willingly worked on a fraudulent movie with him and never told Peter until it was, like, way too late.

It could've been interesting to have MJ dealing with the aftermath of that kind of fiasco.

[TinkerSpider]

It kind of amazes me how little Mysterio knowing Peter's identity has mattered. Or that MJ willingly worked on a fraudulent movie with him and never told Peter until it was, like, way too late.

One day I hope we find out what Spencer had planned if he had stayed longer on the title, because there are so many dropped balls and I doubt it was just carelessness/laziness.