Rereading Nick Spencer's Amazing Spider-Man

[PCN24454]

Okay boomer.

(ASM#41 vol 5)

.

Worthy of Spider-Man himself.

[Mister Mets]

ASM 8-10 are my favourite issues of Spencer's run because he "fixed" Felicia. Pete re-revealing his identity was a wonderful moment.

The Black Cat scenes were handled pretty well. I thought the A plot was a bit over the top. I like the idea that the Thieves Guild decided to steal important stuff from superheroes to make a splash, but their level of success was absurd. It diminished the Marvel heroes.

[David Walton]

I also wonder why the **** Spencer decided to resurrect Ned right before his run ended, near the end of Chameleon Conspiracy he does an evil smile which can give the impression he's a Chameleon, or Ned is evil, or whatever, but that was at the very end of his run, which it didn't get used since Sinister War came soon after, this is like when Slott's run randomly revealed Emily isn't dead... Is this gonna be a tradition now? Runs ending with Goblin-related character resurrecting? Will Daniel come back next in Wells' run? Or maybe Phil?

I'm also curious what Spencer's plans for Ned were. Given his tendency to retcon controversial elements from Spider-Man's history, I'm wondering if he wanted to address Hobgoblin's secret identity.

This could just be my personal bias, but I never felt like Roderick Kingsley as Hobby worked. Stern held his cards a little too close to his vest, so to speak, and pretty much no one walked away from his run thinking Kingsley was the guy. By the time HOBGOBLIN LIVES rolled around, there was no satisfying option because of the behind the scenes chaos.

I don't know, it seems like the kind of thing that would be on Spencer's retcon checklist. My guess? He was going to reveal that Ned Leeds was, in fact, Hobgoblin, and had used the Winkler machine to trick Kingsley into thinking he had tricked Ned.

[exile001]

In a few days I'm going to cover "Hunted" and I'm wondering how to consider cost and size.

Ostensibly, it's a six issue story but the TPB included the prelude, the epilogue and the .HU issues which often had big moments.

It's fifteen bucks on Comixology, and cost is irrelevant on Marvel's Digital Unlimited service, so I could consider it in that context. Does it provide as much satisfaction as a standard $15 digital volume? The TPB is pretty expensive as it's out of print, but that's not Nick Spencer's fault. The cover price is higher at $40.

All of the content will be included in the first Nick Spencer Spider-Man omnibus in November, where the price is just under $2.50 an issue.

Another question will be how to evaluate events like Last Remains or Sinister War which have tie-in issues. Should I grade Sinister War separate from Amazing Spider-Man 70-73? Should I go by how they packaged it in TPBs?

I'd definitely say get the expanded version with the .HU issues. They really flesh out a few things and one in particular is excellent. I have that TPB.

On Sinister War/ASM 70-73, I couldn't really mentally reconcile how they go together issue to issue so I'd read SW as an expanded side-version of the finale. I remember reading Last Remains and the Spider-squad side story together and they flowed okay (but the side stuff felt mostly unnecessary).

[Huntsman Spider]

I'd definitely say get the expanded version with the .HU issues. They really flesh out a few things and one in particular is excellent. I have that TPB.

On Sinister War/ASM 70-73, I couldn't really mentally reconcile how they go together issue to issue so I'd read SW as an expanded side-version of the finale. I remember reading Last Remains and the Spider-squad side story together and they flowed okay (but the side stuff felt mostly unnecessary).

Would you be referring to the issue with the Gibbon, by any chance?

[Lukmendes]

lmao, hell yeah

I guess this moment was foreshadowing that Boomerang would be a pain in Spidey's ass about 50 years later :P

The Black Cat scenes were handled pretty well. I thought the A plot was a bit over the top. I like the idea that the Thieves Guild decided to steal important stuff from superheroes to make a splash, but their level of success was absurd. It diminished the Marvel heroes.

Spencer also never bothered to explain how they managed to steal so damn much, they even seemingly stole Spidey's webshooters while he still had 'em.

I'm also curious what Spencer's plans for Ned were. Given his tendency to retcon controversial elements from Spider-Man's history, I'm wondering if he wanted to address Hobgoblin's secret identity.

This could just be my personal bias, but I never felt like Roderick Kingsley as Hobby worked. Stern held his cards a little too close to his vest, so to speak, and pretty much no one walked away from his run thinking Kingsley was the guy. By the time HOBGOBLIN LIVES rolled around, there was no satisfying option because of the behind the scenes chaos.

I don't know, it seems like the kind of thing that would be on Spencer's retcon checklist. My guess? He was going to reveal that Ned Leeds was, in fact, Hobgoblin, and had used the Winkler machine to trick Kingsley into thinking he had tricked Ned.

Honestly, Ned as an explanation of who Hobgoblin is is even worse, considering how randomly he got killed like a scrub, not to mention it makes no sense with Spider-Man vs Wolverine established, though that was because of dumb behind the scenes ****.

I also don't see what is there to fix by doing this, as far as I've seen, Ned being Hobgoblin was never particularly popular on the fanbase, Roderick is the general popular one.

I also have my doubts Spencer was gonna reveal Ned was the true Hobgoblin all along, back in Hobgoblin lives, a plot point that made the characters even think that Ned isn't Hobgoblin is the fact he got killed by Foreigner's men to begin with, that was an indication that he didn't have usual Goblin powers, and this plot point is something Ned claims to be true, he didn't have his powers, went to a secret base in Germany and found a Goblin serum there, took it, got killed, and only then did the Goblin serum's powers activate to resurrect/regenerate him like it did to Norman, saying all of this to later claim that it was all a lie and he was Hobgoblin all along? Man... Hobgoblin Lives made **** be enough of a headache, this would make it even worse.

So yeah, the whole Roderick/Ned thing, it was "fixed" already in Hobgoblin Lives, I don't think Spencer would change its details that much, but again, it is weird why he decided to bring back Ned to begin with (Unless that isn't Ned and is a Chameleon or whatever, it is weird that he knew the exact location of Foreigner's invisible cassino, and that can make it look like he's a Chameleon...)

Whoever the hell helped out Ned in the end is something I wonder:



(ASM#68 vol 5)

Specially considering that, a similar shadowed figure is shown burying previous clones of the Stacy twins:



And if you think about it, it couldn't be Harry burying them here, Harry was dead back then, and we don't know who made the Harry clone too, and it couldn't be that clone since he wasn't involved... So assuming the shadowed figure there is an important character, and is the same guy who helped out Ned, it means there was a mastermind around who isn't Kindred and who isn't dealt with.

Would be funny if it's not a guy at all, and is Emily doing all this **** for reasons lol.

I'd definitely say get the expanded version with the .HU issues. They really flesh out a few things and one in particular is excellent. I have that TPB.

On Sinister War/ASM 70-73, I couldn't really mentally reconcile how they go together issue to issue so I'd read SW as an expanded side-version of the finale. I remember reading Last Remains and the Spider-squad side story together and they flowed okay (but the side stuff felt mostly unnecessary).

Sinister War was a weird read, the fight against all of those Sinister Sixes didn't really feel impactful for the plot, and the way they're taken out so quickly didn't help... While I see the logic behind it, it feels too convenient that an exploding centipede can knock out so many so fast, specially weird when you consider super busted characters are included like Juggernaut (Who shouldn't be threatened by the centipede to begin with so he has no reason to work for Kindred) and Morlum (Who's too damn tough).

[TinkerSpider]

Whoever the hell helped out Ned in the end is something I wonder:



(ASM#68 vol 5)

Specially considering that, a similar shadowed figure is shown burying previous clones of the Stacy twins:



And if you think about it, it couldn't be Harry burying them here, Harry was dead back then, and we don't know who made the Harry clone too, and it couldn't be that clone since he wasn't involved... So assuming the shadowed figure there is an important character, and is the same guy who helped out Ned, it means there was a mastermind around who isn't Kindred and who isn't dealt with.

I hope someday Spencer will spill on what he had originally planned and where he was taking the story. Would love to read something like an oral history of his run, especially since I wonder how much the pandemic and having to go pencils down for a period of time affected him and might have changed his story plans. Many creatives have gone of record speaking about how difficult it was to create when the pandemic started and there was so much uncertainty.

[Celgress]

It was great until it wasn't. The mystery buildup was intriguing, however, the end fell flat for me. I hope someday we hear the full story behind this run. I've heard some intriguing rumors that point towards heavy editorial interference which may have changed the reveal massively.

[Lukmendes]

I hope someday Spencer will spill on what he had originally planned and where he was taking the story. Would love to read something like an oral history of his run, especially since I wonder how much the pandemic and having to go pencils down for a period of time affected him and might have changed his story plans. Many creatives have gone of record speaking about how difficult it was to create when the pandemic started and there was so much uncertainty.

IamnotJudasTraveller made a great thread talking about what was known about what was going on behind the scenes and how they may have affected the run itself among other things:

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ht=XYJz2XD.png

An interesting theory there is that maybe Spencer's run wasn't supposed to end with Sins Past being retconned away, but it may have been part of the plans, that Spencer's run was supposed to deal with both Sins Past and OMD:

I was basically thinking something is amiss, but I had to get this out of my system and get on with my life. I forgot to include another item entirely which was "the case for Spencer wanting to do this all along", and how with his Kindred-centric storylines he decided to go all out in the whole "subverting expectations" thing (I once summarized it in a different language, and boy oh boy, that was a doozy). So if he had that mindset from the beginning of his run, sure, that could count.

But I also forgot to include that I didn't think he never wanted to address Sins Past, too. I meant that the point of his entire run being Sins Past felt like the swerve (or, just maybe, the "subverted expectation" mentioned above if he wanted it this way). But he had already dropped some very explicit callbacks what with Norman's creeping on Spider-Gwen, as well as Kindred literally blurting out "Sins still remembered" in one issue before he made the move on Peter, since that was the title to Sarah's follow-up story. I think if he stayed all the way up to #900, which is what it looks like would have been the case, he would have addressed both stories. Sins Past would be a fix, granted, and OMD, maybe, just acknowledged.

Of course, it's just a theory, but considering that at least Last Remains was implying there were two Kindreds (Since the flashbacks were accurate and showed two colored Kindreds), it is possible that by that point, Kindreds were changed to be bodies of Gabriel and Sarah, or at the very least, Kindred was two people, most likely controlled by Harry regardless though, because both brown and purple Kindred are treated like they're Harry, meaning that, if Kindred was planned to have been Gabriel and Sarah since at most Last Remains, then Spencer was having plans to address/retcon it for a while, and with all of the hints of Mephisto being involved, it's possible OMD would've been addressed too.

My own post about that, and it includes a link to an album listing all of Kindred's coat colors in whatever issues both showed up:

While I can't say for sure that Kindred was always planned to be Sarah and Gabriel, it is worth pointing out that since the earliest issues, Kindred's coats changed colors:

https://imgur.com/a/dvNr5aQ

There is a weird time there was a white colored coat too, which kinda makes me wonder if there's a third Kindred running around .

But yeah, this can line up with Bleeding Cool saying that Kindred was always an evil AI Harry controlling Sarah and Gabriel, plus, Kindred being two people can explain how Carlie got kidnapped despite it happening while the other Kindred was imprisoned.

There is also a scene in ASM#850 that shows purple Kindred in front of a grave, the next issue changes that to brown Kindred, and while it could look like a plot hole, ASM#60 shows purple Kindred in front of a grave again... In Sins Rising itself, the artists were consistent about which Kindred's colors are shown in flashbacks too.

There are goofs about which Kindred is where (Brown Kindred is the one imprisoned, that randomly changes to purple in ASM#64 and #65, then back to brown, the one who talked with Fisk when Fisk was trying to find a way to resurrect Richard is changed from brown to purple, Sinister War#1 shows brown Kindred as the one who threatened Quentin back in ASM#25 when those scenes only use purple Kindred, and the Kindred who got the Chameleon formula from Chameleon is brown in Chameleon Conspiracy and purple in ASM#72), but noticeably all of these goofs only happened after Last Remains.

It was great until it wasn't. The mystery buildup was intriguing, however, the end fell flat for me. I hope someday we hear the full story behind this run. I've heard some intriguing rumors that point towards heavy editorial interference which may have changed the reveal massively.

Honestly while there's no actual information about this, the vibe from Sinister War itself feels off compared to the rest of Spencer's run, with the ASM#74 in particular feeling very, very weird in how about everything is handled.

2099 arc also has a weird vibe to it compared to previous issues, but even that didn't feel like it was fucked over too much by editorial, and was just a poorly written story, Sinister War feels like the story was actively messed with.

Either way, Spencer is likely under a Non-Disclosure Agreement, and if so, we won't be hearing about possible plans any time soon, and that's even assuming he'll be willing to talk about it ever.

[Mister Mets]

Two more stories.



Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #11-13: I believe J. Jonah Jameson is the best supporting character not just in Spider-Man comics (not a knock on MJ) but in all comic books (not a knock on Commissioner Gordon) so I'm always happy with a decent Jonah story. This has fun exploring Spidey and Jonah's history, and how they still frustrate one another even when they're on the same side. It is a good argument in favor of character growth, and the way it allows explorations of a larger journey, to show that a character isn't suddenly boring when the dynamic changes a bit.

It does sometimes feel a bit padded, especially the lengthy recap sequences.
A-



Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #14-15:
This is likely my least favorite pre-Hunted story from Nick Spencer's run. The arc is a bit all over the place as we focus on Aunt May while setting up Kraven's bigger plan. There are some developments with the Ned Leeds clone that initially bothered me, since it seemed to be tying up a loose end for the sake of tying it off, rather than setting up anything new, but it does later turn out that Nick Spencer does have a larger plan there. Aunt May has a good scene showing leadership during a crisis.
B

[your_name_here]

I, too, agree that Kindred was going to be Gabriel/Sarah’s bodies.

Reading up until #74, it’s clearly written as Harry (seemingly Demon Harry) using the body as a vessel.

I theorised Spencer was going to address Sins Past this way, and then further the story by finally addressing OMD with Harry’s soul.

And the ending just feels like Spencer snipped the OMD part - but I really do think he intended to retcon both.

[Celgress]

I, too, agree that Kindred was going to be Gabriel/Sarah’s bodies.

Reading up until #74, it’s clearly written as Harry (seemingly Demon Harry) using the body as a vessel.

I theorised Spencer was going to address Sins Past this way, and then further the story by finally addressing OMD with Harry’s soul.

And the ending just feels like Spencer snipped the OMD part - but I really do think he intended to retcon both.

This is the vibe I got while reading and it falls in line with the rumors I've heard (both at that time and l since). It is fairly obvious Kindred was supposed to be Harry the real Harry.

[Mister Mets]

15 issues in, with the book about to be dominated by "Hunted" I'm a bit annoyed at the lack of progress for Peter after the first arc. They hinted at a job opportunity but we haven't seen it yet. He hasn't even decided on whether to go back to grad school.

[Mister Mets]

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #16-23, 16 HU, 18 HU, 19HU, 20HU:



In the big finale to Nick Spencer's first year on Spider-Man, we get a showdown with Kraven in Central Park where he has organized a hunt of various animal-themed characters while a force field keeps the Marvel heroes out. Officially, it's a six issue saga with a prologue, epilogue and four supplemental stories, although it's best just to consider it as one big twelve-part story. There is a suitably epic plan from Kraven that justifies an epic of this length by bringing in multiple other villains. It also makes sense to have the character in a story that touches on climate change and a trend towards rich poseur hunters.



The take on the Black Cat is excellent. A recollection of a boneheaded decision Peter made during their relationship is one of the best scenes in Spencer's run.

This story has multiple artists but that usually works, with Ottley on the prologue and epilogue, Ramos depicting the main action, and a bevy of others doing shorter character pieces. The main exception might be the first issue where Ryan Ottley's clean dynamic style is not a fit for Alberto Albuqurque's more expressionistic approach.



There is a creepy subplot here about Kindred stalking Mary Jane, and a vision of something terrible happening to MJ. So we get a taste of the next big story during the finale to a Kraven arc seeded since Issue 2.

[Mister Mets]

The highlight of the saga is #18HU, the last stand of the Gibbon. It is sad, it is powerful and would have itself get an A grade+, although it clearly does add to the larger story as well.

The Vulture gets some good moments, with his shamelessness in group settings. There's a clever exchange with Arcade, where he gets manipulated in a way that makes sense for him.



I've always thought one of the biggest missed opportunities in Spider-Man comics was that they didn't do a story where Kraven hunts the Lizard, so I was definitely happy to have that saga. And it worked rather well.

Vermin joins the fray, and there's a new development for the villain that's promising.



There's a definite Robert Kirkman influence in Nick Spencer's work, so it's understandable that he would bring in Eric O'Grady the former Antman and new Black Ant. But it's a character that works pretty well with Spidey.

One minor issue with the run is that some twists are really predictable. It turns out that the guy running from a mysterious hunter was running from Kraven. It turns out that Kraven has a plan to deal with the wannabe hunters who obviously insult everything he stands for.

There is limited focus on Peter Parker's life in this storyline, which may be a mistake. He has a cold and that kind of vanishes. I wonder if that was meant to echo Grim Hunt, where he also had a cold, and the most famous sickly Spider-Man story: The Night Gwen Stacy Died. In that case, the dropping of the cold might just match how it was done in earlier stories. The main connection to Peter's private life is that someone might go after MJ, which is a bit disappointing considering how much the character has been in stasis since Issue 1.