Rereading Nick Spencer's Amazing Spider-Man

**Huntsman Spider** · 08-11-2022, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Matt Rat

Did they ever explain where Gog wound up?

That is a very good question.

**Mister Mets** · 08-12-2022, 10:32 AM

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #44
The prelude to Sins Rising covers some territory we've seen before. Kindred is kinda cryptic and Peter Parker has a nightmare. In something new, Overdrive made the ill-advised decision to be the getaway driver for some of the inner demons, and now the reborn Sin-Eater is chasing after him. Peter feels that things are a bit weird, so he's inspired to call MJ. A final twist raises the stakes and gets a new dynamic involved with the other spiders.

There is a sense of escalating threats, as well as getting to the payoff that's been teased since the first issue, an acknowledgement that readers have been waiting for a while but this is when it gets serious. Kim Jacinto and Bruno Oliviera are credited as the artists, which may explain why the style seems inconsistent. Sometimes it's suitably intense and dynamic. Sometimes it's kinda ugly. I like the Kirby dots though. And Overdrive was a valuable player to Superior Foes of Spider-Man, so I like the character's bigger role in thi story.
B-

Amazing Spider-Man: Sins Rising Prelude #1:

Villain spotlights have been a part of numerous comic book runs. It might've been done best in Geoff Johns' Flash run. Nick Spencer has definitely made it a big part of his Spider-Man run, especially in Hunted. Now we get a spotlight on the Sin-Eater, which builds on what we know for his origins. The commentary on religion in Appalachia is a bit obvious, and does come across like a big-city liberal picking an easy target, although it does work to explore how the mythology of the Sin-Eater in the real world connects to a minor Spider-Man villain who has previously only been depicted in Peter David's work.

One major question is whether it was a smart idea for Nick Spencer to bring back the Sin-Eater. His two appearances in the 1980s are very well-regarded, but his story came to a satisfactory conclusion. Did we really need to see his response to the murder of his partner, or when he began a romantic relationship with Jean Dewolff? The whole point of the original character was that he was just a psycho with a gun, as a way to show that someone with superpowers can stick wreck havoc in Spider-Man's world. His return here is a big gamble that a more supernatural focus is a good take on the series. Whether it works isn't going to be evident from this one issue.

One of the excesses of Nick Spencer's run is the use of scenes from earlier comics. Here, there are a lot of nods to the original Death of Jean Dewolff, and two pages from Sin-Eater's final appearance are reprinted. It works here selling the idea that this is a continuation and a companion to the original saga. Guillermo Sanna has a noir style that works pretty well for this story, even if others have done this kind of material better.
B

**JTait** · 08-12-2022, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Mister Mets

One major question is whether it was a smart idea for Nick Spencer to bring back the Sin-Eater.

The short answer is no. I think that this is the point where his run started to feel far too drawn out and overstuffed, and the inclusion of the Sin Eater as an additional villain is a big part of that. He was simply unnecessary and I feel like if Spencer had ideas for the character that it w0uld have been a smarter idea to use them in a seperate arc, rather than tying his return in with Kindred and Norman Osborn.

**Mister Mets** · 08-12-2022, 12:24 PM

**Mister Mets** · 08-12-2022, 12:28 PM

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #45-48:

In the bulk of the Sins Rising event, Spider-Man still doesn't fight Kindred, but there's a decent scenario involving the reborn Sin-Eater. Mark Bagley draws the bookends, while Marcelo Ferreira has the middle chapters. That combo works.

There is a sense of earned tension to the arc. It is to the Death of Jean Dewolff what Hunted was to Kraven's Last Hunt, with visual nods and major references. That does immediately create a sense of danger for one supporting character. The first issue is a highlight with some decent action sequences, a B-list villain in danger and a twist about Sin-Eater's plan. It's a decent focus on Carlie Cooper, a supporting character that Nick Spencer really worked on, building on the major traumas she went through during Slott's run.

The next issue brings in the Lethal Legion, and it's a delicate dance to feature a story in which a new or upgraded villain goes after existing bad guys, since it's easy to diminish the classic villains, but it generally works okay here. Spider-Man comes across as slightly spinning his wheels making limited progress against the enemy, although the whole point is that he's supposed to be overwhelmed by the depth of the new challenge. One theme in some major Spider-Man stories is the readiness of the public to go nuts (Shed, Maximum Carnage, The Death of Jean Dewolff) and it's handled fine. A new development with Sin-Eater's powers makes him more dangerous in terms of pure power, but also takes away what makes the character special.

A cliffhanger with the other spiders from #44 isn't paid off until the final issue here, although it's a big part of the next special as well as the various Last Rites tie-ins. There's a decent sequence where various spiders try to give Peter advice on what's coming next, but it doesn't have the necessary gravity since they're keeping important information from him for inexplicable reasons. And this story is going pretty long, as these are the middle chapters after a prelude and tie-in, and then there's still one more tie-in and extra-sized conclusion left. And the cryptic references to Kindred are getting repetitive. The positive is that some of the action sequences are pretty decent.
B-

**your_name_here** · 08-12-2022, 01:13 PM

Sins Rising/Return of the Green Goblin was probably the most hyped and invested in Spider-Man I’d been in such a long time. That story and Hunted are definitely highlights for the “big stories.”

**Mister Mets** · 08-13-2022, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by your_name_here

Sins Rising/Return of the Green Goblin was probably the most hyped and invested in Spider-Man I’d been in such a long time. That story and Hunted are definitely highlights for the “big stories.”

I did not care for it as much.

Amazing Spider-Man: The Sins of Norman Osborn:

This is an oddly paced issue. It repeats a lot of what's going on in the main book, while the spiders talk about their dreams and Norman Osborn is attacked at Ravencroft. The Sin-Eater has a new power as the result of an encounter with an acolyte, which is probably the biggest development in this issue. I have to wonder if it wasn't meant to be something else, before it got reshuffled into a tie-in one-shot that someone could skip with minimal impact. Norman Osborn's not really given the focus that Sin-Eater got in the Sins Rising prelude one-shot, or that the likes of Gibbon and the Vulture got during Hunted.

Someone here said that there's a speed force vibe to the other spiders (call them the Web Warriors, the Order of the Web, whatever they're called) and this lampshades one of the most annoying aspects of recent Spider-Man comics, and showcases how the other spiders aren't a great fit for this story. In retrospect, it seems it would've been best to do the Sin-Eater arc as one TPB-length story, wait half a year before Kindred's master plan as a separate storyline and tell these stories without Miles, Silk, Spider-Gwen and company. If Marvel wants to do a big spiders team up story, it would make more sense to have Kindred ally himself with villains who are meaningful to them, or bring in some bad guy that is appropriate for that kind of team-up. Alternatively there could be stories focusing on one of them at a time, so that we get to see what makes them unique. Instead, they seem shoehorned into a story that's supposed to be about Peter Parker's sins and his relationship with the Osborns, and where they spend a lot of time talking amongst themselves about how Peter Parker is screwing up.

Artist Federico Vincetti's style doesn't impress me. He's just not on the level of Ramos, Ottley or Bagley. This is probably the most unnecessary issue of Spencer's run so far.
C-

**Mister Mets** · 08-13-2022, 04:07 PM

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #49:
It's an extra-large 850th issue, which ends up being the biggest milestone Nick Spencer gets to write during his run on Amazing Spider-Man. The bulk of this story has Spider-Man and Norman Osborn teaming up against the Sin-Eater, with regular artists Ryan Ottley, Humberto Ramos and Mark Bagley each depicting one chapter. Artistically, it works pretty well. The story itself, not so much.

It's one of the weakest anniversary issues, and the core concept might've been doomed. I don't buy the central team-up, or the conflict about how Norman might betray Spidey (no ****.) The vision subplot gets an unsatisfying payoff. I get that there are arguments about how best to take advantage of a milestone issue. Should there be a new villain or classic villain(s)? Spider-Man and the Green Goblin fighting together against a fusion of the villains in two top ten Spider-Man stories. That part is anniversary-worthy.

Should it be a self-contained story, the conclusion of a story or the beginning of a larger story? I don't think there were many recommendations for a partial conclusion to one story just before a new phase kicks off.

A new development gives a final upgrade to the Sin-Eater, while connecting him to another of the most acclaimed Spider-Man stories ever. That helps justify the Spider-Man/ Green Goblin team-up, and there are some decent points on the history between Spider-Man and his greatest enemy, although I don't buy the ease with which they're fighting together. Norman Osborn does have a creepy meeting with the other spiders, and the moment when he gets back in action is earned, although these stories have unsatisfying conclusions for the equivalent of a 10 issue arc.

There are also some back-up stories. The best is by Saladin Ahmed and Aaron Kuder featuring Vulture's granddaughter, which ended up being relevant to a recent issue of the Wells/ Romita run. Tradd Moore has Spidey in the crossfire of an odd fight involving wizards, which doesn't seem very meaningful, but does have some decent fantasy art. Kurt Busiek and Chris Bachalo have a Beatles inspired story about a magic artifact possessing J Jonah Jameson, which is fun.
B-

**Mister Mets** · 08-14-2022, 04:57 PM

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #50:

The Kindred mystery has been oddly paced. He was introduced in the first issue, but he never actually encountered Spider-Man in the first two years of Nick Spencer's run. There were some questions on how long the mystery should last, and when it would be dragged on too long. I figured that considering the book's roughly twice-monthly schedule (there were some exceptions during the pandemic which is not the fault of any member of the creative team) the fiftieth issue, or at least a TPB-length storyline kicking off with the fiftieth issue would be the point at which it's not too late. That's what ended up happening.

Kindred still doesn't meet Spider-Man in this issue, but it has a creepy beginning that sets the stakes for a messed up encounter. It's more and more teasing of a future encounter, which we've seen plenty of in the preceding issues, but it does mark an escalation.

I did not care for the execution or the revelation. In the end of the issue, Kindred is revealed as the most obvious suspect: Harry Osborn. There is a subtext (to be honest, it's kinda explicit) of Peter being in denial about what's going on, so that kinda fits. However, it's really unsatisfying, and having read the entire run, I know it doesn't pay off well (unless I really develop a new appreciation for the last few issues.) A big problem is that Harry's been MIA for most of the run, which is likely intentional but undercuts the announcement.

The other big development in this issue is a rematch between the Sin-Eater and Norman Osborn. The previous Sins Rising arc culminated in a triple-sized anniversary issue where Spider-Man preventing Sins Eater from cleansing Norman Osborn. One issue later, it happens anyway. That's just a disappointing payoff.

There is a creepy monologue where Norman Osborn tries to justify himself, before he realizes that there's nothing he can do. And the cleansed Norman Osborn represents a different dynamic. This is a version of the character we haven't seen since Amazing Spider-Man #121. It's not a terrible idea, and it does make sense in the context of the larger story, while also presenting a new challenge for Peter. It also works pretty well in the context of Willem Defoe's take on the character in the excellent Spider-Man: No Way Home, which would soon reset him in the public eye as Spider-Man's clear archenemy.

There is a new revelation about the Sin-Eater which does land for me. I like the idea that he had one big secret, even to himself.

Patrick Gleason works pretty well as a street-level Spider-Man artist, although his work is a bit jarring when it's in the same larger storyline as Mark Bagley and Ryan Ottley.

Spidey's role is kinda lame in this issue. It starts with him getting his ass kicked. He visits Dr. Strange. Flashbacks show how Kindred attacked immediately attacked in the aftermath of the last issue, which did set up an okay larger threat. One thing I'm bothered by is the story kicking off immediately after the previous saga, highlighting how Spider-Man didn't do anything significant there. It's an approach that isn't done a lot in comics, although it's acceptable in horror and action movie sequels and television (IE- a two part season premiere set immediately after the events of a two part season finale) so it might be a pet peeve. Even if it were, this issue remains very much a mixed bag.
C+

**Celgress** · 08-16-2022, 10:54 PM

Mister Mets I agree with your rating of C+ this was not a good run, IMHO. Heck, if Boomerang had lived I would give it a D or maybe an F.

LOL, I never thought I'd write those words because our opinions on Spidey are typically worlds apart.

**hoth82** · 08-17-2022, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider

That is a very good question.

Randy mentioned in the new #1 that Gog was living with him now.

**exile001** · 08-17-2022, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mister Mets

One major question is whether it was a smart idea for Nick Spencer to bring back the Sin-Eater.

That's a real tricky question as this issue is one of my favourites of the whole run and I really liked the arc(s) up to the part when he just turned on his followers and became a huge sin-monster (and even then the Peter/Norman stuff was great).

Could this have worked just as well with a similar but more out there character? Demogoblin maybe?

Perhaps the shock of using Sin Eater was the hook that made it work. I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Mister Mets

I did not care for the execution or the revelation. In the end of the issue, Kindred is revealed as the most obvious suspect: Harry Osborn. There is a subtext (to be honest, it's kinda explicit) of Peter being in denial about what's going on, so that kinda fits. However, it's really unsatisfying

This didn't kill the run for me, but I (and many more on these boards) were saying for a long time prior that anyone would be more interesting than Harry.

Personally, I was hoping or a temporal clone. The Peter who was destroyed in making his deal with Mephisto (remember, current Peter didn't actually make that deal, the previous continuity was overwritten).

**JTait** · 08-17-2022, 10:57 AM

I remember being mildly disappointed with Harry at the time. It just felt like his character has been meddled with enough over the years and I was happy for him to stay as a mostly civillian presence in the books for a while. I also thought that it seemed a bit obvious and had been kind of hoping that he would be a red herring.

I think it's safe to say though that he would have been a far better, more logical option than what eventually transpired.

**Huntsman Spider** · 08-17-2022, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by hoth82

Randy mentioned in the new #1 that Gog was living with him now.

Thanks for reminding me.

Originally Posted by exile001

That's a real tricky question as this issue is one of my favourites of the whole run and I really liked the arc(s) up to the part when he just turned on his followers and became a huge sin-monster (and even then the Peter/Norman stuff was great).

Could this have worked just as well with a similar but more out there character? Demogoblin maybe?

Perhaps the shock of using Sin Eater was the hook that made it work. I'm not sure.

This didn't kill the run for me, but I (and many more on these boards) were saying for a long time prior that anyone would be more interesting than Harry.

Personally, I was hoping or a temporal clone. The Peter who was destroyed in making his deal with Mephisto (remember, current Peter didn't actually make that deal, the previous continuity was overwritten).

Temporal clone, huh? Funny enough, that was one of the resolutions bandied about for the Clone Saga before how they ultimately settled that; the idea would have been that neither Peter Parker nor Ben Reilly was a clone, but they were literally the same person, as "Ben" was just Peter Parker who'd been sent five years into the past in a kind of time loop.

Originally Posted by JTait

I remember being mildly disappointed with Harry at the time. It just felt like his character has been meddled with enough over the years and I was happy for him to stay as a mostly civillian presence in the books for a while. I also thought that it seemed a bit obvious and had been kind of hoping that he would be a red herring.

I think it's safe to say though that he would have been a far better, more logical option than what eventually transpired.

A.I. copy of Green Goblin Harry that was coopted by Mephisto and using the "Stacy-Osborn twins" from Sins Past as cloned flesh puppets for "Kindred," the flesh-and-blood Harry being a clone himself all along, and the original Harry being trapped in Mephisto's hellish realm after his death because his father sold his soul before he was even born . . .

**Mister Mets** · 08-20-2022, 08:06 AM

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #50:LR

The first year's Hunted arc had four tie-in issues, and Last Rites gets five. The basic structure is that Amazing Spider-Man issues feature his fight with Kindred, while the tie-ins focus on the web warriors and Norman Osborn, although this issue's a bit of an exception as we see the continuation of a fight between Spider-Man and his possessed allies from the previous issues. Matthew Rosenberg is credited as a co-writer, although I don't see any glaring inconsistencies with Nick Spencer's style.

Structurally, this is a strange issue because it has to be something that readers can enjoy as part of the larger story, and something that can be skipped by someone who just wants the core issues. This is especially the case since these may be read in different ways. Some readers may go with the order of publication (#50, then #50LR, then #51 and so on.) Some readers might only read the core issues. Some readers might read the core issues in the TPB, and then the tie-ins separately as part of the Last Remains Companion TPB.

We get a sense of a very different Norman Osborn, and his regrets, which fits the character and the larger story. Norman's realization that he allowed things to get so far out of arrogance elevates some scenes in retrospect.

As a tie-in issue, it's not bad. Peter's fight with the web warriors is literally filler, but it's satisfying. He's in pain, and put into an absurd situation where he has to leave himself vulnerable by saving their lives, and they just don't care. And the cliffhanger legitimately raises the stakes, so even if this is extra content, it does make the larger story more satisfying (even if my point about the whole damn thing being excessive still stands.)
B

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